Why do you believe that, after death, it's too late for Jesus to save people?

[NotTheRock]

Forgiveness is a very big subject which you do not understand, or you would not have made this last post.

Forgiveness always starts with repentance.
Those in hell are in the state they died in, as rejectors of Jesus and cannot change.

If there is no repentance then there is no forgiveness, this is something taught throughout the bible.
It is how God forgave the israelites when they turned from their sins and sought him.
It is how Jesus saved us when we confessed our sins and recieved his forgiveness .

Why do you believe that repentance isn't possible after death?

 

[RedFan]

Scripture says It is appointed unto man to die once then the judgment (Heb 9:27). That really nails home the fact that there are no second chances after death. You have only this life to accept the truth

You read more into this verse than I do. To me, it says only that judgment will follow death. It tells me nothing about how long a time elapses between those two events, or whether the dead are conscious and capable of repentance in that interim time.

(By the way, I think the answer is No -- but I don't think that answer can be distilled from this particular verse.)

 

[ChristinaL]

You read more into this verse than I do. To me, it says only that judgment will follow death. It tells me nothing about how long a time elapses between those two events, or whether the dead are conscious and capable of repentance in that interim time.

(By the way, I think the answer is No -- but I don't think that answer can be distilled from this particular verse.)

There is no delay. You go to your judgment immediately. There is no limbo period. The dead, saved or unsaved are certainly conscious but you cant repent after you die. The bible spells it out clearly in many places repent or perish. Not ok if you die unsaved you still have a chance afterwards

 

[RedFan]

There is no delay. You go to your judgment immediately. There is no limbo period. The dead, saved or unsaved are certainly conscious but you cant repent after you die. The bible spells it out clearly in many places repent or perish. Not ok if you die unsaved you still have a chance afterwards

That's fine. My point was simply that those "many places" don't include Heb. 9:27.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does the Bible say that people can't or won't choose to follow Jesus AFTER they die?

Sorry, had to leave for a couple of days...will also look for you other post that was to me.

The bible does NOT say that people cannot choose to follow Jesus after they die because it's self-understood.

Paul said that it's appointed for man to die ONCE, and then comes the judgment.
And THEN COMES THE JUDGMENT.

I could ask you the same question:
Where in scripture does it say we CAN decide to become born-again after death?

 

[RedFan]

John 5:28-29 (NRSV) says: "Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Those of us who believe that one goes to judgment immediately after death need to ask ourselves, Is this applicable only to those who died before Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

You misunderstand my brother. The verse is explaining that all die because of Adam's sin but that all will live because of Jesus's sacrifice. Jesus's death paid for the sins of ALL people, regardless of whether or not they know or believe it.

Are you a universalist then?
The ability to be saved after death is a different topic.

You're correct. Jesus' death paid for the sins of ALL PEOPLE.
His sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for everyone, past, present and future.
BUT
There are conditions to the atonement.
It must be accepted and we must remain believers in Christ till the end.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 2:12
12If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

1 John 4:14 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

The Savior of all people ESPECIALLY to those that believe...
I gave my explanation above.....

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Correct. Justification and life is for all men....
again: Conditions apply.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Whoever believes IN HIM will not perish.
This is the condition....which not all men will accept.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
And on whom does God have mercy?
On all His creation (us).

But He is also a just God....
He will only ACCEPT those that follow His conditions.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

God does draw all people.
Have you never heard of His grace?
God gives to all sufficient grace so that a person can KNOW that God exists.
Some call it prevenient grace.
See Romans 1:19-20 ALL MEN can know that God exists.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

OK NTR,
I explained many of your verses.
The rest can also easily be explained.

Universalism does not exist in the bible due to the fact that there are conditions to be met.
Also, being forgiven after death is also an idea that is not in the NT.
Jesus, Paul and all the writers exhorted people to believe NOW and to live a good life so they could be PRESENTED TO GOD HOLY AND BLAMELESS.
1 Cor 1:8

 

[Johann]

Are you a universalist then?
The ability to be saved after death is a different topic.

You're correct. Jesus' death paid for the sins of ALL PEOPLE.
His sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for everyone, past, present and future.
BUT
There are conditions to the atonement.
It must be accepted and we must remain believers in Christ till the end.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 2:12
12If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;


The Savior of all people ESPECIALLY to those that believe...
I gave my explanation above.....




Correct. Justification and life is for all men....
again: Conditions apply.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Whoever believes IN HIM will not perish.
This is the condition....which not all men will accept.


God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
And on whom does God have mercy?
On all His creation (us).

But He is also a just God....
He will only ACCEPT those that follow His conditions.

God does draw all people.
Have you never heard of His grace?
God gives to all sufficient grace so that a person can KNOW that God exists.
Some call it prevenient grace.
See Romans 1:19-20 ALL MEN can know that God exists.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

OK NTR,
I explained many of your verses.
The rest can also easily be explained.

Universalism does not exist in the bible due to the fact that there are conditions to be met.
Also, being forgiven after death is also an idea that is not in the NT.
Jesus, Paul and all the writers exhorted people to believe NOW and to live a good life so they could be PRESENTED TO GOD HOLY AND BLAMELESS.
1 Cor 1:8

Predicalo sorella!

J.

 

[NotTheRock]

Are you a universalist then?

Yes, so is God. God sent Jesus to save ALL beings from forever death and punishment.

 

[NotTheRock]

The Savior of all people ESPECIALLY to those that believe...

Believers is a subset of ALL people. Jesus is the savior of all people because he will, eventually, save ALL people, albeit many after death. If Jesus doesn't actually save ALL people then Paul's statement is wrong.

 

[NotTheRock]

Universalism does not exist in the bible due to the fact that there are conditions to be met.

You're wrong. Those conditions WILL be met. Some will indeed be sent to the Lake of Fire, but they will not remain there forever. What do you think 1 Corinthians 15:25 is saying?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, so is God. God sent Jesus to save ALL beings from forever death and punishment.

I believe (not that I think I'll change your mind) that you're conflating
God offering the sacrifice (once and for all) of Jesus to, yes, save all people in a salvific manner....
with
God saving all persons forever.

I don't know if you've studied any of the atonement theories, but God did make a plan for man's salvation knowing that Adam would fail and cause all of humanity to follow since Adam was created by God and was the official federal head of all humanity.

IOW, when Adam fell, all of humanity was infected with his sin and all of humanity fell.

It was satan in the Garden that bought man's soul....both Eve and Adam succumbed to satan.

The atonement theories, some of them, speak about how Jesus "bought back" or redeemed mankind from satan's grip.
IN THIS MANNER God saved all person's from satan's grip....,

BUT

If we're to be transformed into the "image of God", as He had originally planned...
then we have to accept the METHOD by which this must be done.

Jesus bought us back...
He will draw all men to Himself....
But not all men will respond to that drawing power.

Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

What is without excuse Not??

If we accept the above verses,,,then universalism becomes impossible because there would be NO NEED for any such verse.
There would be NO NEED to state that those that do not acknowledge God are WITHOUT EXCUSE....
Why? Because, according to you, everyone is going to heaven anyway.

The fact that Romans 1:19-20 is written by Paul shows that man MUST MAKE A DECISION since he has no excuse.

 

[n2thelight]

No one will be judged in ignorance, that's what the millennium is for ,,all will come to know the true Word of God unfortunately many will still return to satan ,it's at that point that one will be truly lost

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers is a subset of ALL people. Jesus is the savior of all people because he will, eventually, save ALL people, albeit many after death. If Jesus doesn't actually save ALL people then Paul's statement is wrong.

Not so....
Explained in my post no. 92

You're conflating the SACRIFICE for all
with
Salvation for all.

Jesus' sacrifice is for ALL
Salvation is for those that accept the conditions that God has set.

WHY do you think the NT is just full of conditions?


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

Mark 16:16
16The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.


Romans 10:9
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

John 3:36
36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Why do you suppose the NT gives so many conditions?

Here's another one:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul clearly states WHO WILL NOT go to heaven.
He states that it's necessary to be washed, justified and sanctified in order to be with God for all eternity.


If you reply, I would ask that you do not edit my posts as some journalists seem to edit comments.
Please post the entire post of mine and then reply just to what you wish to address.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're wrong. Those conditions WILL be met. Some will indeed be sent to the Lake of Fire, but they will not remain there forever. What do you think 1 Corinthians 15:25 is saying?

You'll have to show me how I'm wrong.

Now you're changing your idea to
SOME will be sent to the Lake of Fire
BUT
will not remain there forever.

Are you even sure of what you believe?

 

[Johann]

You'll have to show me how I'm wrong.

Now you're changing your idea to
SOME will be sent to the Lake of Fire
BUT
will not remain there forever.

Are you even sure of what you believe?

Purgatory?

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Purgatory?

J.

I don't think the other poster is referring to purgatory.
First, I don't believe purgatory exists....Protestants do not believe this is a real place.
Second, some Catholics don't even believe purgatory is found in scripture. I mean
priests/teaching priests.....(not the laity - what they believe is of no importance here).

I think that what the other member is referring to is the idea that, Yes, some will end up in
hell.....but that it will not last eternally. Some do hold this belief.

 

[Johann]

I don't think the other poster is referring to purgatory.
First, I don't believe purgatory exists....Protestants do not believe this is a real place.
Second, some Catholics don't even believe purgatory is found in scripture. I mean
priests/teaching priests.....(not the laity - what they believe is of no importance here).

I think that what the other member is referring to is the idea that, Yes, some will end up in
hell.....but that it will not last eternally. Some do hold this belief.

--which is error, plain and simple.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

--which is error, plain and simple.

J.

Right. The NT does state that it's eternal.
It's always man, trying to interject his own understandings, that undermines the biblical truths.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 5:28-29 (NRSV) says: "Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Those of us who believe that one goes to judgment immediately after death need to ask ourselves, Is this applicable only to those who died before Christ?

No, it is all inclusive.