If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

[St. SteVen]

What's the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved?

These two questions show a common misunderstanding about Christian Universalism.
(Universal Reconciliation, Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, UR)

These quotes are from the website Universalist Musings.

"When this question is raised, in most cases it’s almost as though the objector is assuming that without the threat of eternal damnation there would be no point in following Jesus or living in obedience to his calling for us. This brings to light the problematic fact that many infernalists seem to view Jesus merely (or at least chiefly) as a ‘get out of hell free’ card, so to speak—remove the real possibility of everlasting hell, and these individuals would apparently say ‘forget Jesus.’ This, of course, is not a proper understanding of gospel motivation."

The reason we ought to follow Jesus and proclaim the gospel without delay, is not primarily for fear of damnation as a consequence if we don’t, but rather because Jesus is inherently worthy of our devotion and obedience, and the gospel is inherently good news worth proclaiming!"

"... have you ever considered why it is that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment has, as a matter of practical fact, failed to motivate most people to turn to Christ, and has likewise failed to motivate most Christians to consistently evangelize? Could this be because most of us, at least deep-down, recognize that it is an inherently absurd and incoherent concept, and thus, is a threat that we recognize does not deserve to be taken seriously?" Source (question 12 pp 3, 4, 7)

Discussion questions:
- Is there any reason to follow Jesus if the threat of hell in the afterlife is removed?
- Is there any value in following Jesus in the here and now?
- What effect might the removal of the threat of hell from the gospel message have?
- Would anyone choose to follow Jesus without the threat of hell?

[

 

[Lambano]

- Is there any reason to follow Jesus if the threat of hell in the afterlife is removed?

Is that eternal life thing the carrot, and the other place the stick?

- Is there any value in following Jesus in the here and now?

29 Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mark 10:29-30)

Well, if you're into persecutions...

I did find that I now have mothers and sisters and brothers who need someone to take them grocery shopping and have houses and yards that need to be taken care of and children who look up for guidance and caring...

And I wouldn't trade it for the world.

- What effect might the removal of the threat of hell from the gospel message have?

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

If this is true, well, the threat of unending first-degree burns is something the natural man CAN understand. Nothing spiritual about that; self-preservation is about as fleshly as it gets.

- Would anyone choose to follow Jesus without the threat of hell?

I don't recall any of the Twelve following Jesus because He threatened them will Gehenna. I read through Acts, and I noticed that in Paul's speeches to the pagans, he never threatens them with Hell. Nor did Jesus; those threats were always to his Jewish brethren who presumably believed in God. In my recent conversations over in the non-Christian sections of the forum, I realized that this threat only works if you believe there is or may be a God to carry them out.

I did answer the altar call as a twelve-year-old boy because I believed the man with the authority who said God would smoke me if I didn't. So, it works. But I felt violated and had trust issues with God for the next thirty years.

 

[St. SteVen]

I did answer the altar call as a twelve-year-old boy because I believed the man with the authority who said God would smoke me if I didn't. So, it works. But I felt violated and had trust issues with God for the next thirty years.

Therein lies the real problem. IMO
Does God use extortion to get what he wants from us?

[

 

[Lambano]

Does God use extortion to get what he wants from us?

You say that like extortion is a bad thing.

In the end, it all comes down to power. Who has the bigger stick. That's the way this world works and has always worked. (Not that I'm a cynic. Never.)

I was hoping to find a better way.

 

[St. SteVen]

I was hoping to find a better way.

I suppose we could play God for a while.

If you were about to launch the creation of a physical universe, what would the long-term plan be?

Based on what we ended up with, it seems that the creator likes a good story.
Complete with mystery, danger, risk, rewards, consequences, love, hate, bliss and misery.
Some of these elements are undesirable, but without the bad, we would have nothing to compare the good.
These things balance each other.

[

 

[Deborah_]

- Is there any reason to follow Jesus if the threat of hell in the afterlife is removed?
- Is there any value in following Jesus in the here and now?
- What effect might the removal of the threat of hell from the gospel message have?
- Would anyone choose to follow Jesus without the threat of hell?

Hell is rarely talked about in UK churches these days. (The only time I've heard Hell mentioned in a sermon in the last 30 years or so was when I was preaching...)
Yet people still choose to follow Jesus, and keep on following Jesus.

I wouldn't "threaten someone with Hell' when trying to evangelise then because I think it would be considered a form of emotional blackmail. And since few non-Christians actually believe in the existence of Hell any more, you would first have to convince them of its reality (how???)

So i think the answers to your questions are:
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Probably not much
4) Yes

And from my own personal experience, the existence or threat of Hell made NO contribution at all to my conversion.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hell is rarely talked about in UK churches these days. (The only time I've heard Hell mentioned in a sermon in the last 30 years or so was when I was preaching...)
Yet people still choose to follow Jesus, and keep on following Jesus.

I wouldn't "threaten someone with Hell' when trying to evangelise then because I think it would be considered a form of emotional blackmail. And since few non-Christians actually believe in the existence of Hell any more, you would first have to convince them of its reality (how???)

So i think the answers to your questions are:
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Probably not much
4) Yes

And from my own personal experience, the existence or threat of Hell made NO contribution at all to my conversion.

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply.

Would you say that your position on this is typical of most Christians?
What I see on this forum tells me it isn't.

[

 

[Ritajanice]

I think imo,some, like threatening the hell card, do you you think it makes them feel powerful, a form of trying to control.

By the way, I believe we are already living in hell, when we were still in darkness and alienated from God.
.i well remember after becoming Born Again, I said, I never want to come back to this hell hole earth..I lived on hell in this earth, as a non believer...I would want to die if I had to live on this earth again without God.

Just my thoughts, sorry if I went off topic.

 

[Deborah_]

Would you say that your position on this is typical of most Christians?
What I see on this forum tells me it isn't.

I think it's typical of Christians in the UK. Can't speak for Americans. And the Christians you meet on forums are probably not typical of Christians anywhere offline.

 

[ChristinaL]

Therein lies the real problem. IMO
Does God use extortion to get what he wants from us?

[

NO. Men use extortion to get others to conform to THEIR will

 

[St. SteVen]

NO. Men use extortion to get others to conform to THEIR will

Is that so?

--- PARODY ---

Christian: You should become a Christian.
Victim: Why on earth would I want to do that?
Christian: Huh? What do you mean?
Victim: Christians are the worst people on the planet.
Christian: No, sinners like you are the worst.
Victim: Seriously?
Christian: Yes, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: Doesn't it also say not to judge others?
Christian: I'm not judging you. That will come later.
Victim: Like when?
Christian: After you die without Christ.
Victim: Are you talking about a forever burning hell?
Christian: Yes, that's where you are going.
Victim: How would you know?
Christian: Again, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: But what do you say?
Christian: I agree with the Bible.
Victim: You are proving my point about why I don't want to be a Christian.
Christian: Why not?
Victim: I don't want to be like you.

Indeed.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Based on what we ended up with, it seems that the creator likes a good story.
Complete with mystery, danger, risk, rewards, consequences, love, hate, bliss and misery.
Some of these elements are undesirable, but without the bad, we would have nothing to compare the good.
These things balance each other.

"Universalism is not some sentimental wish or a presumptive rejection of traditional Christianity. Rather it is the assurance that Christ the king will victoriously reclaim all that is rightfully his, not allowing the forces of evil to get the last word over any of his creatures.

To phrase it somewhat provocatively: It is a corrosive and reprehensible error to suggest (as non-universalist views do) that Christ is so weak that he will literally lose ground forever, tolerating a net loss, permanently surrendering his once-good creation to the forces of evil." Source

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[amigo de christo]

Knowing the TERROR of GOD we persaude men . Time for the original gospel
to be sounded out again .
In case anyone wants to see how often JESUS made mention of the word BELIEVE in HIM
try reading the gospels
If anyone wants to see how the apostels evangelized and HOW they preached the dire need to BELEIVE
and how they warned those who rejected . Read acts .
Then also read the letters of the apostels and see how serious they were about having to Believe and continue in HIM .
THEN ask yourselves . HOW come they all continually preached the DIRE NEED to BELEIVE on HIM
and yet today we seem to see so many messages that focus rather on HOW one will be saved Even when they believe NOT .
THEN realize we got us a major problem going on within christendom .
And that problem has come to replace the one true gospel and offers up only False hope to a dying world .
As for me , I stick with CHRIST and HIS message . cause by grace I KNOW HE SAVES and HE ALONE saves
and that one must believe in him TO be saved .
so i leave us with these words . What must i do to be saved , BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . lets preach THAT AGAIN and fast .

 

[St. SteVen]

Knowing the TERROR of GOD we persaude men .

Extortion is getting an offer you can't refuse.

[

 

[amigo de christo]

Extortion is getting an offer you can't refuse.

[

NO exhortation can be refused . Just like the warnings of GOD himself , of HIS CHRIST and of the apostels
can be refused . But man it wont bode well for those who choose to do so .
Exhortation can be refused . anything can be refused . the thing is IF TRUTH is refused , correction refused
The one refusing wont like his end . God wont force one person
but he sure warns now DONT HE . my advice WE BESS start opening the bible for ourselves
and taking heed unto them lovely words . Interfaith is of satan . Just had to throw that reminder in for us all .
Most folks now preach unbelief . most folks now try and offer up false hope .
TIME WE remind all of the ONLY HOPE THERE IS and THEY HAD BETTER believe on HIM , JESUS THE CHRIST .
not some other jesus , and not some other dead end false religoin , LIKE EVERY OTHER RELIGON IS .
TRY pointing folks to the TRUTH . Peter himself warned about , paul himself warned about
These seducing spirits , this not enduring sound doctrine , this given unto fables .
The bible dont contain fables , men create fables and men can twist the scrips to create a fable too .
BIBLE TIME steven .

 

[Aunty Jane]

I suppose we could play God for a while.

You seem to like doing that….

If you were about to launch the creation of a physical universe, what would the long-term plan be?

God already told us what the long term plan was…..he created the material Universe in one almighty act of his power, and in one small section of the Universe was a little galaxy known as the Milky Way….in a tiny portion of that galaxy, was a solar system with one planet that was chosen to support life. Just the right distance from its sun, and with just the right tilt on its axis, and with just the right speed of its rotation. “The Goldilocks planet”. Life would begin here…..was it just a prototype though?

After his initial preparation, God brought everything into being before it was even necessary. The installation of the water canopy above the expanse would create a barrier against extremes of hot and cold, giving the earth a moist and temperate climate where life could thrive. The extreme seasons we have now would not exist. Each season producing what it was created to achieve. Something we have now lost, due to selfish human intervention.

God made the heavenly bodies visible by removing thick clouds layers, and revealing the things he created in space to facilitate life on this planet. The sun for warmth and energy for growth of the vegetation that was created before the humans and animals who would consume it.

The moon would provide a nightlight and its pull of gravity would regulate the tides, cleansing river systems and providing the right environment for the creatures he designed to live in the rivers and oceans.

The mixture of gases in our atmosphere were perfectly balanced…just the right amount of oxygen to keep living things alive…and to keep a fire burning, but not too much so that a spark would cause an expolosion.

The basic story is all there for us to read in the Bible.

After that long unstated period of preparation, the Bible tells us that the Creator brought all things into being with precision and order. He had periods of time earmarked for certain things to take place in the order in which they must for his creation to work out according to his purpose. Each period was concluded with an expression of his satisfaction.

Last of all he created humans….and he gave them intelligence and abilities that are not seen in the animal kingdom. He did not program humans for life instinctively like he did with the creatures that would share life with us here, he made man alone “in his image”, gave him free will, and commissioned him to be the caretaker of all creation.

He was told to ”fill the earth and subdue it”……using the garden of Eden as a blueprint for the rest of the world, the human race would transform the unsubdued parts of the earth to look like Eden. With perfect physical health and no sickness or old age and death to defeat them, and an ever growing workforce, imagine if you will, what God originally purposed for this little planet….unending life in paradise with no knowledge of evil. Would you like to live there?

Only humans were given a rule that could not be disobeyed….under penalty of death.

Free will was to be exercised within the parameters set by the Creator…..but it was not to be free of consequences and responsibilities. But it would not be interfered with either, because God gave it for a specific purpose. Humans were to obey their Creator out of deep respect, not out of fear of punishment.
The more they got to know their Creator, the more love and respect they would have for him. Had the woman obeyed her God instead of an impersonator, it is doubtful that Adam would have succumbed to the temptation himself. The devil targets the young and inexperienced. He got to Adam by deceiving his beautiful new wife….dividing his loyalties.

A fear of death had no grounds until they took something that did not belong to them.
Without a knowledge of evil, man had no way to know what it was, what it could do, and how drastically it could alter their existence. They knew what death was, but only abstractly…not personally. They soon experienced it when their firstborn murdered his younger brother out of jealousy.

When the humans gained a knowledge of evil, everything in their life changed…..absolutely everything.
Sinful thoughts entered into their consciousness and their first realization was that they were naked.
It all went downhill from there….evicted from their paradise home and out into an earth cursed by God, they now suffered the consequences of their own choices. Banned from the only thing that could keep them living forever. (Gen 3:22-24)

Based on what we ended up with, it seems that the creator likes a good story.
Complete with mystery, danger, risk, rewards, consequences, love, hate, bliss and misery.
Some of these elements are undesirable, but without the bad, we would have nothing to compare the good.
These things balance each other.

Everything in creation is balanced with equal opposites….and the balance is not detrimental to life……in all but one area.
If we were to contrast the goodness of God with its equal opposite, what do we end up with? Was a knowledge of evil to that degree ever going to benefit anyone? Isn’t this why God wanted to keep it to himself and only bring good things to his children whilst protecting them from the evil he knew existed in the natural balance of things? All they had to do was obey him….was it a difficult thing to do? Did he ask too much?

But the humans could not be told, and neither it seems could the devil. In order to achieve his status as a deity to the humans, he had to separate them from the true God and take his place. Every god worshipped in human religions is a creation of the devil…the wannabe god who controls the world…..it all goes to him by default.

How will it all end? The Bible tells us that too….but it meant a sorting and sifting of all in God’s family…in heaven and on earth.
He alone has the power and authority over life and death….and the death penalty is how he dealt with those who deliberately broke his laws without repentance. He simply removed them from life….like they never existed. There is no hell of fiery torment….and no immortal soul to experience it.

The Bible tells us it ends well for those who learned the lesson….but for those who do not think that God requires their obedience, a rude awakening awaits them.

In the coming judgment, there are only “sheep and goats”……every single one of us has been placed in one category or the other…..we are either on the cramped and narrow road to life, or the easy road that ends in “destruction” (Matt 7:13-14).….do we really know which one God has judged us to be in?

According to Jesus‘ words at Matt 7:21-23….The answer is a resounding NO!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I suppose we could play God for a while.

You seem to like doing that….

You say that like it's a bad thing. - LOL

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[amigo de christo]

You say that like extortion is a bad thing.

In the end, it all comes down to power. Who has the bigger stick. That's the way this world works and has always worked. (Not that I'm a cynic. Never.)

I was hoping to find a better way.

The better way is found only in THE ONLY WAY , which be JESUS the CHRIST .
And high time it is that we remind all that draws breath of the dire need to beleive On HIM .
It is of dire necessity for souls that we preach the absolute dire need for them and for all to repent and beleive JESUS IS the CHRIST .

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Will you go to heaven when you die? - (or the other place)

- What is heaven? - Is that where we go when we die? - Do unbelievers go to hell instead? - Will there still be a heaven during the Millennium? - Will there still be a heaven after the new heavens and earth are created? [

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[ChristinaL]

You seem to like doing that….

God already told us what the long term plan was…..he created the material Universe in one almighty act of his power, and in one small section of the Universe was a little galaxy known as the Milky Way….in a tiny portion of that galaxy, was a solar system with one planet that was chosen to support life. Just the right distance from its sun, and with just the right tilt on its axis, and with just the right speed of its rotation. “The Goldilocks planet”. Life would begin here…..was it just a prototype though?

After his initial preparation, God brought everything into being before it was even necessary. The installation of the water canopy above the expanse would create a barrier against extremes of hot and cold, giving the earth a moist and temperate climate where life could thrive. The extreme seasons we have now would not exist. Each season producing what it was created to achieve. Something we have now lost, due to selfish human intervention.

God made the heavenly bodies visible by removing thick clouds layers, and revealing the things he created in space to facilitate life on this planet. The sun for warmth and energy for growth of the vegetation that was created before the humans and animals who would consume it.

The moon would provide a nightlight and its pull of gravity would regulate the tides, cleansing river systems and providing the right environment for the creatures he designed to live in the rivers and oceans.

The mixture of gases in our atmosphere were perfectly balanced…just the right amount of oxygen to keep living things alive…and to keep a fire burning, but not too much so that a spark would cause an expolosion.

The basic story is all there for us to read in the Bible.

After that long unstated period of preparation, the Bible tells us that the Creator brought all things into being with precision and order. He had periods of time earmarked for certain things to take place in the order in which they must for his creation to work out according to his purpose. Each period was concluded with an expression of his satisfaction.

Last of all he created humans….and he gave them intelligence and abilities that are not seen in the animal kingdom. He did not program humans for life instinctively like he did with the creatures that would share life with us here, he made man alone “in his image”, gave him free will, and commissioned him to be the caretaker of all creation.

He was told to ”fill the earth and subdue it”……using the garden of Eden as a blueprint for the rest of the world, the human race would transform the unsubdued parts of the earth to look like Eden. With perfect physical health and no sickness or old age and death to defeat them, and an ever growing workforce, imagine if you will, what God originally purposed for this little planet….unending life in paradise with no knowledge of evil. Would you like to live there?

Only humans were given a rule that could not be disobeyed….under penalty of death.

Free will was to be exercised within the parameters set by the Creator…..but it was not to be free of consequences and responsibilities. But it would not be interfered with either, because God gave it for a specific purpose. Humans were to obey their Creator out of deep respect, not out of fear of punishment.
The more they got to know their Creator, the more love and respect they would have for him. Had the woman obeyed her God instead of an impersonator, it is doubtful that Adam would have succumbed to the temptation himself. The devil targets the young and inexperienced. He got to Adam by deceiving his beautiful new wife….dividing his loyalties.

A fear of death had no grounds until they took something that did not belong to them.
Without a knowledge of evil, man had no way to know what it was, what it could do, and how drastically it could alter their existence. They knew what death was, but only abstractly…not personally. They soon experienced it when their firstborn murdered his younger brother out of jealousy.

When the humans gained a knowledge of evil, everything in their life changed…..absolutely everything.
Sinful thoughts entered into their consciousness and their first realization was that they were naked.
It all went downhill from there….evicted from their paradise home and out into an earth cursed by God, they now suffered the consequences of their own choices. Banned from the only thing that could keep them living forever. (Gen 3:22-24)

Everything in creation is balanced with equal opposites….and the balance is not detrimental to life……in all but one area.
If we were to contrast the goodness of God with its equal opposite, what do we end up with? Was a knowledge of evil to that degree ever going to benefit anyone? Isn’t this why God wanted to keep it to himself and only bring good things to his children whilst protecting them from the evil he knew existed in the natural balance of things? All they had to do was obey him….was it a difficult thing to do? Did he ask too much?

But the humans could not be told, and neither it seems could the devil. In order to achieve his status as a deity to the humans, he had to separate them from the true God and take his place. Every god worshipped in human religions is a creation of the devil…the wannabe god who controls the world…..it all goes to him by default.

How will it all end? The Bible tells us that too….but it meant a sorting and sifting of all in God’s family…in heaven and on earth.
He alone has the power and authority over life and death….and the death penalty is how he dealt with those who deliberately broke his laws without repentance. He simply removed them from life….like they never existed. There is no hell of fiery torment….and no immortal soul to experience it.

The Bible tells us it ends well for those who learned the lesson….but for those who do not think that God requires their obedience, a rude awakening awaits them.

In the coming judgment, there are only “sheep and goats”……every single one of us has been placed in one category or the other…..we are either on the cramped and narrow road to life, or the easy road that ends in “destruction” (Matt 7:13-14).….do we really know which one God has judged us to be in?

According to Jesus‘ words at Matt 7:21-23….The answer is a resounding NO!

That really shows you the depravity of man...where man in the very beginning was given only one law to obey- and they couldnt even do that.
How will it all end though?

Your teachers are liars. Jesus in the gospels and Revelation make it undeniably clear that man does have an immortal soul and there is eternal torment. Leave the JWs girl or you will find out the truth the hard way