Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Well said, thanks.
The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast.
View #1)
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?
View #2)
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.
Question: What is the source of View #1 ?
John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
[
Guilty as charged, then. See post #162, or...
Two Views of God's Plan for Humankind - which stand in stark contrast
The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast. View #1) God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness. He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority. And it is not clear why...
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Last edited:
A Study of Eternal Punishment
Updated: Sat, 09/10/2022 - 08:16 By admin
INDEX TO STUDY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT:
- Introduction
- Digression on Eternal - The Greek Word Aionios
- Hell Has Fallen on Hard Times
- Teachings of Jesus Related to Eternal Punishment
- Effect of the Truth of Eternal Punishment on Our Evangelistic Passionr
- Quotes and Illustrations Related To Eternal Punishment
- Resources Related to the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment
- Definition of Terms Used for Eternal Punishment
- Steve Lawson's powerful sermon on The Great White Throne Judgment!
- Rebuttal of Annihilationism, Universalism, Purgatory
- Denial of the Doctrine of Hell By The Cults
- Exposition of Luke 16:19-31
- Last Words From Saints And Sinners
- There's No Place Like Hell - Sermon by Ian Paisley
- The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment - Harry Buis
- How Shall We Escape if We Neglect so Great a Salvation - W A Criswell
- Multiple Related Resources on Hell - list at bottom of page
- If you dare - Take a few minutes and watch John Bunyan's VIDEO The infernal dungeon of Hell
A Study of Eternal Punishment | Precept Austin
www.preceptaustin.org
Think I'll side with what stands written than mere pontificating and philosophizing.
J.
Thanks.
What does all this say about the character of God?
Or will you hide behind your books?
If you believe that God is worse than any tyrant humankind could produce, then go ahead and own it.
Who created hell? How would you describe the experience of those sent there?
For what ultimate purpose will anyone be sent there? Will they have any hope of escape?
Can you imagine anything more cruel or sadistic?
[ cc: @quietthinker
REBUTTAL OF ANNIHILATIONALISM,
UNIVERSALISM, PURGATORY
Pastor Steven Cole writes that there are three popular views that we must reject.
The first is universalism, the view that everyone will eventually be saved. The universalist says, “A good and loving God could not condemn anyone to hell. There is some good in even the worst of people. God will take that into account, so that no one will be condemned.” But the universalist underestimates both the awful sinfulness of the human heart and the absolute holiness of God. The rich man in the parable was not an evil man in human terms. He wasn’t a mass murderer or child molester. He wasn’t deliberately hurting people. He was a just living for himself, oblivious to the poor man at his gate. And yet here he is in the place of eternal torment! Clearly, Jesus did not teach that everyone, let alone everyone who isn’t terribly evil, would be in heaven.
The second popular view we must reject is annihilationism. This is the view that God will destroy the unrepentant sinner, so that he ceases to exist. In other words, the soul is not immortal. Perhaps God will punish the person for a time, proportionate to his sin. But at some point, God will say, “That’s enough,” and the person will not suffer eternally. God will annihilate the person’s soul. Several professing evangelicals, most notably John Stott, have suggested if not embraced this idea. The Seventh Day Adventists teach this doctrine. Frankly, the idea sounds humane and appealing. But I cannot dodge Mt 25:46, where Jesus uses the same word “eternal” in the same verse to refer to eternal punishment and eternal life. If life is eternal, then so is punishment. Also, Rev 20:10+ states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone “day and night forever and ever.” Then, just a few verses later (Re 20:15), it states that all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are also thrown into the lake of fire. “Day and night forever and ever” sure sounds eternal! The best defense of eternal punishment that I’ve read is Jonathan Edwards’ sermon, “The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners.” He argues that since any sin is against the infinite God, it is worthy of infinite punishment.
The third popular view that this parable refutes is the doctrine of purgatory. Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church teach that when a believer dies, unless he has attained a state of moral perfection on earth, he goes to an intermediate place where he suffers until all sin is purged away. The sufferings vary according to the guilt and impenitence of the sufferer. Gifts and services to the church, prayers on behalf of the deceased, and Masses provided by friends or loved ones, can all shorten the amount of time the person spends in Purgatory. If anyone was a candidate for Purgatory, this rich man was. As I said, he was not a bad man. He called Abraham his father, showing his devotion to the Jewish faith. He had a concern for his five brothers’ eternal destiny. But he wasn’t in Purgatory, with a chance to get into heaven after he had suffered a while. He was in hell and there was a great chasm fixed so that he could never cross over. The doctrine of Purgatory is not taught in Scripture (it is based on the apocryphal 2Ma 12:39-45). It undermines the doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It adds human works to His finished work on the cross.
Interested? No, of course you are not @St. SteVen.
www.preceptaustin.org
J.
UNIVERSALISM, PURGATORY
Pastor Steven Cole writes that there are three popular views that we must reject.
The first is universalism, the view that everyone will eventually be saved. The universalist says, “A good and loving God could not condemn anyone to hell. There is some good in even the worst of people. God will take that into account, so that no one will be condemned.” But the universalist underestimates both the awful sinfulness of the human heart and the absolute holiness of God. The rich man in the parable was not an evil man in human terms. He wasn’t a mass murderer or child molester. He wasn’t deliberately hurting people. He was a just living for himself, oblivious to the poor man at his gate. And yet here he is in the place of eternal torment! Clearly, Jesus did not teach that everyone, let alone everyone who isn’t terribly evil, would be in heaven.
The second popular view we must reject is annihilationism. This is the view that God will destroy the unrepentant sinner, so that he ceases to exist. In other words, the soul is not immortal. Perhaps God will punish the person for a time, proportionate to his sin. But at some point, God will say, “That’s enough,” and the person will not suffer eternally. God will annihilate the person’s soul. Several professing evangelicals, most notably John Stott, have suggested if not embraced this idea. The Seventh Day Adventists teach this doctrine. Frankly, the idea sounds humane and appealing. But I cannot dodge Mt 25:46, where Jesus uses the same word “eternal” in the same verse to refer to eternal punishment and eternal life. If life is eternal, then so is punishment. Also, Rev 20:10+ states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone “day and night forever and ever.” Then, just a few verses later (Re 20:15), it states that all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are also thrown into the lake of fire. “Day and night forever and ever” sure sounds eternal! The best defense of eternal punishment that I’ve read is Jonathan Edwards’ sermon, “The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners.” He argues that since any sin is against the infinite God, it is worthy of infinite punishment.
The third popular view that this parable refutes is the doctrine of purgatory. Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church teach that when a believer dies, unless he has attained a state of moral perfection on earth, he goes to an intermediate place where he suffers until all sin is purged away. The sufferings vary according to the guilt and impenitence of the sufferer. Gifts and services to the church, prayers on behalf of the deceased, and Masses provided by friends or loved ones, can all shorten the amount of time the person spends in Purgatory. If anyone was a candidate for Purgatory, this rich man was. As I said, he was not a bad man. He called Abraham his father, showing his devotion to the Jewish faith. He had a concern for his five brothers’ eternal destiny. But he wasn’t in Purgatory, with a chance to get into heaven after he had suffered a while. He was in hell and there was a great chasm fixed so that he could never cross over. The doctrine of Purgatory is not taught in Scripture (it is based on the apocryphal 2Ma 12:39-45). It undermines the doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It adds human works to His finished work on the cross.
Interested? No, of course you are not @St. SteVen.
A Study of Eternal Punishment | Precept Austin
J.
Oops. This one made it through the gauntlet. All the other quotes are sick beyond compare.
David Holwick - God's goal is to mold us into the likeness of Jesus. Many Christians forget this. We stress making a decision for Jesus, almost like a fire-insurance policy. God wants to see a transformation, not just a signature on a line.
[
You are frantically avoiding the question by throwing tons of book references at me.
What does all this say about the character of God?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The two views of God's plan for humankind stand in stark contrast.
View #1)
God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?
View #2)
God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.
Question: What is the source of View #1 ?
John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
[
An appeal to emotionalism ain't going to work, you read, not just parts, but ALL what stands written, but as a universalist you HAVE to read Scripture very selectively and with a pair of scissors, cutting out the "offensive parts" and read the bible with distorted lenses.
Hence your numerous threads. And numerous random questions.
How Many Questions Did Jesus Answer?
Throughout the Gospels, Jesus was asked many questions, both by His disciples and by various individuals, including religious leaders, lawyers, and the crowds. However, Jesus did not always provide direct answers; He often responded with a question of His own, a parable, or a deeper reflection to guide the inquirer toward truth.
Scholars estimate that Jesus was asked approximately 183 questions in the Gospels.
Out of these, Jesus directly answered about 3-8 questions, depending on how you interpret certain responses. Instead of giving straightforward answers, Jesus often used questions as a teaching tool or redirected the conversation to reveal the questioner's heart.
How Many Times Did Jesus Preach on Hell?
Jesus spoke about hell more than any other figure in the Bible, frequently warning of the consequences of rejecting God. The word "hell" in the New Testament is often translated from Gehenna (γέεννα), which referred to a place of judgment and punishment.
Jesus referenced Hell at least 11-12 times directly in His teachings, often in the context of warning against sin and urging repentance. Notable references include:
Matthew 5:22 – Warning against anger and judgment.
Matthew 5:29-30 – Urging radical measures to avoid hell.
Matthew 10:28 – Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Matthew 18:9 – Cutting off what causes sin to avoid being cast into hell.
Matthew 23:33 – Condemning the Pharisees as “serpents” destined for hell.
Mark 9:43-48 – Warning of the unquenchable fire of hell.
Thus, Jesus addressed the reality of hell often, emphasizing the eternal consequences of sin and rejection of God’s will, while His answers to questions were designed to provoke thought, repentance, and spiritual reflection rather than offering simple replies.
Happy snipping! But there's a serious warning--
J.
Since "God's goal is to mold us into the likeness of Jesus.", what is the purpose of hell?
[
Those scissors cut both ways. How are you any different? You discard my scriptures too.
[
Not so, I cant find universalism anywhere taught in the Holy Writ.
Universalism, the belief that ultimately all souls will be reconciled to God and saved, is a theological idea that has developed over time, with various figures contributing to its spread and articulation. However, it did not emerge from a single individual but rather from a gradual shift in interpretation and teaching throughout church history. Here are some key figures and movements associated with the development of universalism:
1. Origen of Alexandria (185–254 AD)
Origen, one of the early Christian theologians, is often regarded as the most prominent early advocate of a form of universal reconciliation. He proposed the idea of apokatastasis, which suggested that all of creation, including sinners and fallen angels, would eventually be restored to God. Origen taught that, after a process of purification and correction, even the most hardened souls could be reconciled to God. However, his views were controversial, and later church councils, such as the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD, condemned certain aspects of Origen's teachings, including universalism.
2. Gregory of Nyssa (335–395 AD)
Gregory, one of the Cappadocian Fathers and a highly respected theologian, also spoke about the possibility of universal restoration. While not as explicit as Origen, Gregory hinted at the eventual redemption of all in some of his writings, especially in his views on the nature of God’s love and justice. He saw God’s love as something that would ultimately triumph over evil, possibly leading to a final reconciliation of all souls.
3. The Early Universalist Movement (18th-19th Century)
John Murray (1741–1815), a former Calvinist minister, is often considered the founder of Universalism in the United States. He spread the teaching that God’s love and mercy would eventually extend to all people, and that eternal punishment was inconsistent with God's nature. He founded the first Universalist Church in America and helped establish Universalism as a distinct denomination.
Around the same time, Hosea Ballou (1771–1852), another influential Universalist minister in the U.S., became a leading figure in promoting Unitarian Universalism. Ballou strongly rejected the doctrine of eternal damnation and preached that Christ's atonement would ultimately save all.
4. Modern Universalism
In the 19th and 20th centuries, universalism evolved into more formal movements such as Unitarian Universalism, which combined elements of Unitarianism (rejecting the Trinity) with the universalist belief in the eventual salvation of all. This movement no longer adheres strictly to Christian doctrines, but its roots are in the universalist beliefs about salvation.
Guess what @St. SteVen--your beliefs are not strictly in step with Christian doctrines.
While Origen is considered one of the earliest theological figures to explore the concept of universal reconciliation, later thinkers like Gregory of Nyssa and advocates such as John Murray and Hosea Ballou formalized and spread universalist teachings. Over time, the movement evolved and took different forms, but its foundation lies in the early church's debates about the extent of God's mercy and justice.
Origen of Alexandria
Origen: An Exhortation to Martyrdom, Prayer, and Selected Works by Origen (Paulist Press, 1979). This includes many of Origen's theological reflections on the idea of universal salvation, particularly in his discussion of apokatastasis.
The Westminster Handbook to Origen by John Anthony McGuckin (Westminster John Knox Press, 2004). This source explores Origen's theology, including his teachings on the ultimate reconciliation of all creation.
2. Gregory of Nyssa
The Theology of Gregory of Nyssa by Jean Daniélou (Westminster Press, 1955). This work analyzes Gregory's contributions to Christian thought, including his reflections on universal restoration.
Universal Salvation in Gregory of Nyssa’s Eschatology by Morwenna Ludlow (Oxford University Press, 2000). This is a focused study on Gregory’s theological views regarding universal salvation and the eventual triumph of God’s love.
3. John Murray and the Early Universalist Movement
A History of the Unitarians and the Universalists in the United States by Joseph Henry Allen (Christian Literature Company, 1894). This provides an overview of the development of Universalism in America, including John Murray’s role.
Universalism in America: A Documentary History of a Liberal Faith by Ernest Cassara (Beacon Press, 1971). This source includes writings by key figures like John Murray and Hosea Ballou, exploring the theological basis for Universalism in early American history.
4. Hosea Ballou
Hosea Ballou: A Mariner in the Universalist Storm by Ernest Cassara (Universalist Historical Society, 1991). This biography delves into Ballou’s role in shaping Unitarian Universalism and spreading the belief in universal salvation.
The Life and Labors of Hosea Ballou by Thomas Whittemore (Universalist Publishing House, 1854). This older source provides insights into the life and teachings of one of the key figures in early American Universalism.
5. Modern Universalism
Universalism in the Theology of Karl Barth by David Guretzki (T&T Clark, 2016). This work examines how the 20th-century theologian Karl Barth influenced modern debates on universal salvation, even though Barth himself stopped short of endorsing full universalism.
Universal Salvation? The Current Debate edited by Robin A. Parry and Christopher H. Partridge (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2004). This collection of essays discusses the historical and theological arguments for and against Universalism, including reflections on its modern resurgence.
General Histories of Universalism
The Larger Hope: The First Century of the Universalist Church in America, 1770-1870 by Russell E. Miller (Unitarian Universalist Association, 1979). A detailed history of Universalism in America, focusing on the early development of the doctrine.
The Modern Theologians: An Introduction to Christian Theology in the Twentieth Century by David F. Ford (Blackwell, 2005). This work explores how Universalism has been debated and developed in modern theology.
J.
Can tell you have not read your Bible-one eye on politics and the other on the inevitable TV.
You are a poor debater @St. SteVen-I can tell.
J.
That was a cheap shot. Did you run out of ammo?
Why do you refuse to answer the question?
What does all this say about the character of God?
[
Plenty ammo left in the Lev and no cheap shot-you have lost the debate.
If you are interested send me your e mail, I will show you, from Scripture, that the doctrine of universalism is foreign in the written D'varim.
Shalom.
J.
You have already dumped a stinking pile on the forum. Why would I need more?
And still refuse to answer the ONE question. (because I am a terrible debater) - LOL
What does all this say about the character of God?
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