Revelation 20:2
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?
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2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Jack, you interpret certain sounds and call it English yet the sounds you interpret from the Bible sound more like one who finds glee in punishment than one who bends over backwards so that we bumbling fumbling humans can understand his forgiveness and acceptance.
I don't need to interpret the Bible. The FEAR of God is a main doctrine. F2F admitted quite clearly that he rejects the Christian Bible.
All over the place, you say? Why would you quote this particular verse of the which there are centuries of debates over?
You are aware of this, don't you.
Context of Ezekiel 28:
Ezekiel 28 is part of a prophetic oracle directed at the king of Tyre, but it transitions into a description that far exceeds a mere human figure. The initial verses speak of the king's pride, claiming to be a "god" (Ezekiel 28:2), while verses 13-14 suddenly take on a cosmic or supernatural tone. This shift makes the passage difficult to interpret as it seems to speak beyond the historical context of Tyre.
Theological and Symbolic Layers:
While the immediate historical context is a judgment against the king of Tyre, the language used (being in Eden, an anointed cherub, covered in precious stones) suggests that the prophetic words go beyond the human king to describe something grander—perhaps a spiritual or celestial figure. This has led some to associate the text with Satan's fall, based on later Christian readings, especially in connection with Isaiah 14, which describes the fall of "Lucifer" (often also linked to Satan). However, the Hebrew text itself does not directly say "Satan" or "Lucifer".
Detailed Re-Analysis:
"In Eden, the garden of God":
The figure is placed in Eden, but it's important to remember that the king of Tyre (a Phoenician city) would not historically be associated with Eden. This pushes us to think beyond a literal interpretation of the king and to consider symbolic meaning. Eden here likely represents a state of original glory or a primordial paradise.
The precious stones and covering:
The precious stones covering the figure resemble the high priest's breastplate in Exodus, signaling a role of divine appointment or special status before God. This cherubic figure is not described as simply wise but adorned with splendor and beauty, hinting at a heavenly being rather than a human king.
"Anointed cherub that covers":
Cherubs (כְּרוּב) in biblical literature are frequently described as guardians of sacred spaces, such as those positioned at the entrance of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Genesis 3:24), and in the Holy of Holies of the temple (Exodus 25:18-22). The word מִמְשַׁח (mimshach) suggests consecration for a special task, which implies an exalted status, further distancing this figure from an ordinary human king.
The Day of Creation:
The mention of "the day you were created" refers to a created being, not an eternal one. The Hebrew Bible does not typically refer to human kings with this kind of language, further supporting the idea that this being could be something more than human, possibly one of the celestial beings or angels.
Is the Serpent Satan?
You mentioned that the serpent in Genesis symbolizes wisdom and not Satan. The identification of the serpent as Satan is indeed absent in the Hebrew Bible itself. It is only in later Jewish and Christian writings that the serpent becomes more directly associated with Satan.
However, many early Christian interpretations, influenced by the New Testament (e.g., Revelation 12:9, where Satan is called "that old serpent"), read these passages in Genesis and Ezekiel as allusions to the fall of Satan. In this view, Satan was once a glorious being who fell due to pride and rebellion, which parallels the cherub’s downfall described in Ezekiel 28.
Alternative Interpretations:
- There are a few different ways scholars have interpreted this passage:
Human King: Some see it as purely allegorical, where the king of Tyre is described in grandiose terms to reflect his arrogance, but with no connection to Satan or a celestial being.
Satanic Figure: Others, especially from a Christian theological perspective, view the "anointed cherub" as a symbolic reference to Satan before his fall—originally a magnificent and high-ranking angelic being.
Mythological Overtones: Some scholars propose that this passage draws on ancient Near Eastern mythology, where kings were often seen as divine or semi-divine figures, mixing heavenly and earthly motifs. The "king" could thus represent an archetype of rebellion against God’s order, perhaps symbolizing any being (human or angelic) that rises in pride against divine authority.
So---
While there is strong evidence in the Hebrew text that this passage in Ezekiel transcends the literal human king of Tyre and refers to a spiritual or celestial being, the identification with Satan comes more from later theological interpretation than from the Hebrew Bible itself. The cherub described in Ezekiel is indeed an exalted, anointed figure, possibly a guardian of Eden, but whether or not this is Satan depends on how you interpret later Christian influences. The Hebrew text remains ambiguous and does not directly name Satan or the serpent.
So, whether Satan is in the garden as this cherub remains a matter of interpretation. However, it is important to note that the cherub in Ezekiel 28:13-14 certainly represents a created being with wisdom and beauty, whose downfall mirrors the fall narrative that later theology applies to Satan.
Maybe you know something @Wick Stick?
J.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
....and so you live in fear of God....as you have stated in a previous post.
Do great lovers want their beloved to be fearful of them?
Well, since God drowned all on Earth but 8 and burned Sodom alive, "making them an example", yeah I FEAR God!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
..and so you interpret the Greatest Lover known to Man as one who drowns and burns people if they don't dance to his tune?
Do you think there could be another way of understanding/ interpreting what you read? One that is consistent with the character of one who who is prepared to and dies for his enemies?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I didn't interpret anything. It's perfectly clear Bible doctrine!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
How do then reconcile John 3:16-17
'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Do you conclude that if folk don't believe in him that he withdraws his love.....even drowns and burns them.....and if that's the case, we could validly say he never really loved them in the first place?
If God is ONLY love then why is this world HELL on Earth?
Yeah-It offends when I see how you go all out twisting the holy writ to fit you narrative.
When last did you read your bible?
@Jack is the one that is consistent and I concur with him and the Scripture.
"You shall fear Yahweh your God, and you shall serve him, and by his name you shall swear."
Psalm 33:8 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Let all the earth fear Yahweh; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him."
Proverbs 1:7 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge; wisdom and instruction, fools despise."
Ecclesiastes 12:13 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The end of the matter, everything having been heard, fear God and obey his commandments, for this is the duty of all humanity."
Luke 12:5 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who, after killing, has authority to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!"
Psalm 111:10 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom; all who practice it have good insight. His praise endures forever."
Proverbs 9:10 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The beginning of wisdom is the fear of Yahweh, and knowledge of the Holy One is insight."
Isaiah 8:13 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Yahweh of hosts, him you shall regard as holy, and he is your fear, and he is your dread."
Matthew 10:28 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. But instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Psalm 34:9 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Fear Yahweh, you his holy ones, for there is no lack for those who fear him."
Open your Bible some more and learn why the Imperative to fear YHVH!
I know Elohim is agapao but He is also Ha-KADOSH!
Shalom.
J.
Selective reading-
John 3:36 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Greek for wrath: ὀργή (orgē) – Meaning anger, indignation, particularly a divine and judicial anger.
2. Romans 1:18 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by unrighteousness."
Greek for wrath: ὀργή (orgē) – Meaning violent passion, punitive anger, with the sense of retributive justice.
3. Ephesians 5:6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience."
Greek for wrath: ὀργή (orgē) – Denoting strong displeasure or settled anger, especially referring to God’s righteous judgment.
4. Colossians 3:6 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience."
Greek for wrath: ὀργή (orgē) – This carries the sense of God’s divine retribution against sin and disobedience, focused on punitive justice.
5. Psalm 7:11 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"God is a righteous judge, and a God who has indignation every day."
Hebrew for wrath/indignation: זַעַם (zaʿam) – Meaning rage, fury, indignation, often referring to God’s righteous anger against sin.
These terms ὀργή (Greek) and זַעַם (Hebrew) consistently point to God's righteous, judicial anger that is not impulsive but rather settled and just against those who oppose His will.
Go and think some more.
J.
Are you saying the Gen Flood and Sodom accounts aren't in the Bible?
2 Peter 2:4-6
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is hell here because we choose badly. The freedom God gives us includes responsibility for our choices. Bad choices result in miserable consequences which includes hating others, hating ourselves, anxiety, depression, lack of security and fear....plus many more.
face2face
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quietthinker
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No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Moses who wrote of these events believed God was responsible for everything that happened on Earth both good and bad. All the Hebrews had this understanding. It was an error Jesus corrected by telling us it wasn't God who brought about destruction but the Devil who has come to steal kill and destroy. John 10:10
Ohhh--hell is not real, but our own bad choices, it is US that who make hell on earth-right?
No Scriptures from your end, and it is going to end badly for you.
. Matthew 25:41 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!’"
Greek for hell: γέεννα (Gehenna) – Refers to a valley near Jerusalem symbolizing a place of eternal fiery punishment.
2. Matthew 10:28 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. But instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Greek for hell: γέεννα (Gehenna) – Represents the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after judgment.
3. Mark 9:43 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to go into hell with two hands, into the unquenchable fire."
Greek for hell: γέεννα (Gehenna) – The place of final judgment and eternal torment.
4. Luke 12:5 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who, after killing, has authority to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!"
Greek for hell: γέεννα (Gehenna) – A place of destruction and divine punishment for the wicked.
5. Revelation 20:14 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire."
Greek for hell: ᾅδης (Hades) – Refers to the realm of the dead, distinct from the lake of fire, often associated with temporary holding before final judgment.
6. Revelation 20:10 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Greek for hell: λίμνη τοῦ πυρός (limnē tou pyros) – Refers to the lake of fire, the final place of eternal punishment.
7. 2 Peter 2:4 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment."
Greek for hell: Τάρταρος (Tartarus) – A place in Greek mythology used to denote the deepest abyss of Hades, where the wicked are imprisoned.
8. Isaiah 66:24 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"And they shall go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm will not die, and their fire will not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Hebrew for hell: שְׁאוֹל (Sheol) – Refers to the grave or underworld, a place of punishment for the wicked.
9. Psalm 9:17 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The wicked will return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God."
Hebrew for hell: שְׁאוֹל (Sheol) – Refers to the realm of the dead, often used in the Old Testament to indicate the final destination of the wicked.
10. Proverbs 15:24 (Lexham Bible Translation)
"The path of life leads upward for the wise, in order to turn away from Sheol below."
Hebrew for hell: שְׁאוֹל (Sheol) – Refers to the grave or pit, symbolizing the place of punishment or final destination for the unrighteous.
J.
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