When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

[Ronald Nolette]

Did the goat "became sin?"

J.

Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

That is all for the goat. but Gods Word specifically says Jesus became sin for us.

 

[Brakelite]

The first-begotten of the dead (ὁ πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν)
Rev., the first-born. The best texts omit ἐκ from. Compare Col_1:18. The risen Christ regarded in His relation to the dead in Christ. He was not the first who rose from the dead, but the first who so rose that death was thenceforth impossible for Him (Rom_6:9); rose with that resurrection-life in which He will finally bring with Him those who sleep in Him (1Th_4:14). Some interpreters, rendering first-born, find in the phrase the metaphor of death as the womb which bare Him (see on Act_2:24). Others, holding by the rendering first-begotten, connect the passage with Psa_2:7, which by Paul is connected with the resurrection of Christ (Act_13:32, Act_13:33).

Paul also says that Jesus “was declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead” (Rom_1:4). The verb τίκτω which is one of the components of πρωτότοκος first-begotten or born, is everywhere in the New Testament used in the sense of to bear or to bring forth, and has nowhere the meaning beget, unless Jas_1:15 be an exception, on which see note. In classical Greek the meaning beget is common.
Vincent.

First Begotten. See Rom_8:29. Heb_1:6. Compare Psa_2:7. Act_13:33. 1Co_15:20. Col_1:18.

"first begotten" ..The preeminence of the firstborn one. He was not the first resurrected from the dead, what about Lazarus (?), he was the "firstborn" one, that is, the preeminent one so raised.
Of all who have been or will be raised from the dead [permanently], He is the preeminent one, the only one who is the rightful heir (cf. Rev_3:14; Psa_89:27; Col_1:15). - MSB

J.

Thank you, yes. Protokos, from which we get the word prototype.

 

[Brakelite]

Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

That is all for the goat. but Gods Word specifically says Jesus became sin for us.

For those of you interested in a deeper dive into understanding the fine details of the sanctuary services, their meaning and symbolism, and the types and antitypes as demonstrated in the ministry of Christ our High Priest, here is a link to a wonderfully written and detailed examination of every aspect of the temple, its priesthood, and the sacrificial system, including the penultimate holy day, the day of atonement, in which the goats play a leading role beside the High Priest. I am sure the more studious among you will enjoy it. Even if you just focus on one aspect, the pdf format allows you to go to chosen chapters and topics.

https://maranathamedia.com/downloads/library/books/Bible%20Doctrines/Sanctuary/The%20Sanctuary%20Service%20-%20M.L.%20Andreasen%20(1947).pdf

 

[Bladerunner]

All threw Christian dome brothers and sisters we hear the term born again. You will hear people in the churches, on the street, at work, even in jail, making the statement, "since I have been born again. For those who have any knowledge in the word (Holy Scriptures) will understand that this just isn’t the case, because born again is a change in the body not in the mind. Now Paul says in Romans 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Now this is a pretty simple lesson brother and sisters, pay close attention to what’s being said.

Now, Let’s jump right in a conversation that Jesus was having with a man name Nicodemus. John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God. Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information. He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When he mentions spirit He means exactly that. Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice: He made a difference between flesh and spirit. Ask yourself that question, was you born flesh or spirit?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice: He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

Notice: what Jesus does in these next few verses. Remember, this is after His resurrection.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family, Jesus was Born Again.

Jesus was fully GOD and fully man before and after His death ad resurrection

 

[Johann]

For those of you interested in a deeper dive into understanding the fine details of the sanctuary services, their meaning and symbolism, and the types and antitypes as demonstrated in the ministry of Christ our High Priest, here is a link to a wonderfully written and detailed examination of every aspect of the temple, its priesthood, and the sacrificial system, including the penultimate holy day, the day of atonement, in which the goats play a leading role beside the High Priest. I am sure the more studious among you will enjoy it. Even if you just focus on one aspect, the pdf format allows you to go to chosen chapters and topics.

https://maranathamedia.com/downloads/library/books/Bible%20Doctrines/Sanctuary/The%20Sanctuary%20Service%20-%20M.L.%20Andreasen%20(1947).pdf

The Biblical Feasts of Israel All Point to Jesus

Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...

www.oneforisrael.org

 

[wooddog]

FIRST Begotten... Revelation 1:5
4416 πρωτότοκος prototokos pro-tot-ok’-os
‭
‭from 4413 and the alternate of 5088; adj; TDNT-6:871,965; {See TDNT 675}
‭
‭AV-firstborn 7, first begotten 2; 9
‭
‭1) the firstborn
‭ 1a) of man or beast
‭ 1b) of Christ, the first born of all creation

ONLY Begotten... John 3:16
3439 μονογενής monogenes mon-og-en-ace’
‭
‭from 3441 and 1096; adj; TDNT-4:737,607; {See TDNT 502}
‭
‭AV-only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1; 9
‭
‭1) single of its kind, only
‭ 1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
‭ 1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

2 different contexts. Different words. Different meanings.

Right two different births.

 

[bro.tan]

Jesus was fully GOD and fully man before and after His death ad resurrection

If that was the case Jesus couldn't died, but you can continue believing a lie. Remember, this is after His resurrection. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family, Jesus was Born Again.

 

[face2face]

If you want to have straightforward and forthright conversation, great. If you want to play games, hide, obfuscate, I'm not interested.

And if we are going to speak about Jesus, let's make sure we're talking about the same one. I'm talking about Jesus in the Bible, the Son of God, Who is God the Son, YHWH incarnated in human flesh. Is that who you mean?

Much love!

You can prove the first but not the second.

 

[face2face]

We all know why.

Do we all know that? Or is this more manipulative speech? I suppose "we all know" the answer to that!

Much love!

Dishonesty just doesn't fit well with you Marks!

Here is the full question!

1. We all know why you are reluctant to answer the question..."How many times to Christ die to Sin?" - God having made Christ Sin! The answer is obvious but the moment you answer it, your forced substitutionary atonement is gone forever.

I know why you can't answer it!

F2F

 

[face2face]

We all know why.

Do we all know that? Or is this more manipulative speech? I suppose "we all know" the answer to that!

Much love!

Marks, you know the answer, you just choose to ignore what you know is true.
And how many of those points and questions did you deal with?
You have a habit of playing the victim in conversations, you know that right? And when the conversation moves away from your man-made paradigms, you run.
We have been here many times Marks, you know that also!
F2F

 

[face2face]

Did the goat "became sin?"

J.

It was a type of Christ J. you know the verses in Hebrews which prove this!

Here are all the things done or taken "outside the camp" include the following:

The bullock for a sin offering (Lev. 4:12)
the ashes of the burnt offering (Lev. 6:11)
the dwelling place and cleansing of the leper (Lev. 13:45-46; 14:1-3)
the scape goat (Lev. 16:26)
the condemned criminal for execution (Lev. 24:14)
those ceremonially defiled (Num. 5:2-4)
the red heifer to be slain (Num. 19:3)
the ashes of the red heifer (Num. 19:9)
warriors defiled with death (Num. 31:19)
the ceremonially unclean (Num. 5:2-4; Deu. 23:10-14)
proselytes on probation (Josh. 6:23)

All so treated were related to sin in some way, and they could only be atoned for on principles beyond the power of Law.

@Johann @marks

I'll present this another way as it appears you are having trouble with the question.

1. This goes beyond ‘The Lord hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all’ (Isa 53:6). Christ was not only a sin bearer!

2. God made him to be sin for us was, ‘that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.’ He took our flesh (sin's flesh) , he was made under the law, and was made to be sin for us, that SIN's Power might be destroyed, that the captives might be redeemed, and made the righteousness of God in him. Hebrews 2:14-17

Two aspects of the Atonement of which Christian only holds the first (1)

Provided you are honest Johann & Marks that you only hold a belief in (1) then you will find when the Lord comes truth number (2) is where the work of God was done in Christ. You both don't hold that truth...yet

Do you understand?

F2F

While taking the high moral ground in previous posts J. it looks like you couldn't repay me the curtesy of answering my questions.

1. We all know why you are reluctant to answer the question..."How many times to Christ die to Sin?" - God having made Christ Sin! The answer is obvious but the moment you answer it, your forced substitutionary atonement is gone forever.
2. As I said earlier you believe in (1) of (2) clear aspects of his death.
3. In another thread @asoul has retired hurt from the same questions where he has five verses, yet to understood on this subject.
4. Another interesting fact is the contrast between your atonement model and that of the Apostles who fully understood Christ without Hypostasis (amazing when truth is grasped!)
5. Here are the verses presently unaccounted for in your atonement model Romans 8:1-3 and 2 Corinthians 5:20-21; Hebrews 2:14-17; Romans 6:9: 1 Peter 2
6. Christ as the suffering servant is representative of us (Son of Man!) in its task and speaks to all those who are in Christ.

• He bore our nature (representative)
• He suffered in the flesh (representative)
• He was under death's dominion (representative)
• He has asked you to crucify the flesh as he has done (representative)
• He has feared death as you do (representative)
• He has been baptised into his own death and resurrection (representative)
• He died to sin just as you will (representative)
• He has been tempted in every way as you (representative)

I could go on J. but I'm certain you get the truth of these points.

I'm just so thankful I am on the side of God's Word when it comes to understand who the true Christ was and not the invention of men.

F2F

How did you go J?

F2F

 

[Johann]

It was a type of Christ J. you know the verses in Hebrews which prove this!

Here are all the things done or taken "outside the camp" include the following:

The bullock for a sin offering (Lev. 4:12)
the ashes of the burnt offering (Lev. 6:11)
the dwelling place and cleansing of the leper (Lev. 13:45-46; 14:1-3)
the scape goat (Lev. 16:26)
the condemned criminal for execution (Lev. 24:14)
those ceremonially defiled (Num. 5:2-4)
the red heifer to be slain (Num. 19:3)
the ashes of the red heifer (Num. 19:9)
warriors defiled with death (Num. 31:19)
the ceremonially unclean (Num. 5:2-4; Deu. 23:10-14)
proselytes on probation (Josh. 6:23)

All so treated were related to sin in some way, and they could only be atoned for on principles beyond the power of Law.




How did you go J?

F2F

And Messiah did not became chattat in a literal sense [representative] but the dahm of Jesus did kapporah.

J.

 

[face2face]

kapporah.

?
Jesus was a representative Atonement by necessity.

He represents those he died for!...hence why he is called the Son of Man.

This is very simple J.

 

[Johann]

?
Jesus was a representative Atonement by necessity.

He represents those he died for!...hence why he is called the Son of Man.

This is very simple J.

I see you are not familiar with Hebrew, but what you can find online from Sefaria or Blue Letter Bible.

That's good.

You and I are not on the same page.

J.

 

[face2face]

I see you are not familiar with Hebrew, but what you can find online from Sefaria or Blue Letter Bible.

That's good.

You and I are not on the same page.

J.

I know the Hebrew, why not say Atonement? Or are you trying to flex your muscles lol?

F2F

 

[Johann]

He represents those he died for!...hence why he is called the Son of Man.

Here is where you go wrong, you have no clue what "representative" means according to Scripture.



1. The Meaning of Representation:
The concept of representation in the context of Jesus is that He stood in the place of humanity, taking on their penalty without becoming inherently sinful. This distinction is crucial in understanding biblical theology concerning the sinless nature of Christ.

In Hebrew thought, representation does not imply identity in nature but in role. For instance, the High Priest represents the people before God during atonement rituals, but he does not become the sins of the people-he only bears them symbolically. Jesus, as a representative, performs a similar role without inheriting the sin nature of humanity.

2. Greek Concept of Representation in the New Testament:
The Greek word often used to describe Christ’s sacrificial role is ἄντι (anti), meaning “in place of” or “instead of” (cf. Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45). This conveys the idea that Christ took on the penalty on behalf of others but did not become identical in nature to sinful humanity.

In 2 Corinthians 5:21, a key text often used in discussions like this, we read:

Greek (2 Corinthians 5:21):
"Τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ."

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
The phrase "made Him who knew no sin to be sin" (ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν) can be misleading if not understood properly. The key lies in understanding ἁμαρτίαν (hamartian), often interpreted in this context not as Jesus becoming sin in essence, but becoming a sin offering on behalf of humanity, which is more in line with Old Testament sacrificial language.

Something F2F knows nothing about-sadly.

3. Hebrew Concepts of Sin Offerings (Leviticus 16):
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the sin offering is a substitute that bears the penalty of sin, not the sin itself. The goat in the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) ritual, for example, did not become the sins of Israel but rather bore them, carrying them away into the wilderness (cf. Leviticus 16:10).

The Hebrew word כָּפַר (kaphar), meaning to cover, atone, or make amends, reflects the idea of atonement through substitution rather than transformation. The same idea applies to Christ as a representative: He atoned for sins without becoming sinful.

4. The Son of Man and Representation:
When Jesus is called the Son of Man (בֶּן־הָאָדָם, ben ha’adam in Hebrew, and ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου in Greek), it emphasizes His solidarity with humanity without implying that He inherited sinful nature. The term "Son of Man" in the Gospels, especially in Daniel 7:13-14, connects Jesus with the figure who represents all people before God and receives authority, glory, and sovereign power. In representing humanity, Jesus does not become sinful but instead fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law on behalf of humanity.

5. Romans 5: Representation and Federal Headship:
Romans 5:12-21 contrasts Adam's role as the federal head of fallen humanity with Christ as the representative of redeemed humanity. Here, the Greek word ὑπέρ (hyper), often translated as "for" or "on behalf of," is crucial. Paul describes Christ’s act of righteousness as being on behalf of those He represents (Romans 5:19: δι’ ὑπακοῆς τοῦ ἑνὸς, "through the obedience of the One"). Christ represents humanity in His obedience, just as Adam represented humanity in his disobedience.

Paul’s language shows that Christ does not inherit sin but rather reverses the effects of sin by becoming the obedient representative. His role as the second Adam means that through His obedience, not sin, He brings life and righteousness (Romans 5:19).

To sum this up in a nutshell for you F2F--

To represent someone does not necessitate becoming identical to them in nature. In the biblical understanding, Jesus represented sinful humanity without becoming sinful Himself. He bore the consequences of sin, acting as the sin offering and fulfilling the role of a perfect substitute, as seen in both the Hebrew sacrificial system and the Greek New Testament language of atonement. Therefore, it is essential to distinguish between representation and inherent transformation-Jesus was not made sinful but was made a sin offering to bring reconciliation between God and humanity.

Christ’s identification with humanity through His title Son of Man and His role as a sin offering does not imply that He became sinful in essence, but rather that He served as the perfect, sinless substitute who bore the penalty of sin on behalf of those He came to save (Isaiah 53:4-6).

You and I are NOT on the same page.

J.

 

[face2face]

Here is where you go wrong, you have no clue what "representative" means according to Scripture.



1. The Meaning of Representation:
The concept of representation in the context of Jesus is that He stood in the place of humanity, taking on their penalty without becoming inherently sinful. This distinction is crucial in understanding biblical theology concerning the sinless nature of Christ.

In Hebrew thought, representation does not imply identity in nature but in role. For instance, the High Priest represents the people before God during atonement rituals, but he does not become the sins of the people-he only bears them symbolically. Jesus, as a representative, performs a similar role without inheriting the sin nature of humanity.

2. Greek Concept of Representation in the New Testament:
The Greek word often used to describe Christ’s sacrificial role is ἄντι (anti), meaning “in place of” or “instead of” (cf. Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45). This conveys the idea that Christ took on the penalty on behalf of others but did not become identical in nature to sinful humanity.

In 2 Corinthians 5:21, a key text often used in discussions like this, we read:

Greek (2 Corinthians 5:21):
"Τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ."

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
The phrase "made Him who knew no sin to be sin" (ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν) can be misleading if not understood properly. The key lies in understanding ἁμαρτίαν (hamartian), often interpreted in this context not as Jesus becoming sin in essence, but becoming a sin offering on behalf of humanity, which is more in line with Old Testament sacrificial language.

Something F2F knows nothing about-sadly.

3. Hebrew Concepts of Sin Offerings (Leviticus 16):
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the sin offering is a substitute that bears the penalty of sin, not the sin itself. The goat in the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) ritual, for example, did not become the sins of Israel but rather bore them, carrying them away into the wilderness (cf. Leviticus 16:10).

The Hebrew word כָּפַר (kaphar), meaning to cover, atone, or make amends, reflects the idea of atonement through substitution rather than transformation. The same idea applies to Christ as a representative: He atoned for sins without becoming sinful.

4. The Son of Man and Representation:
When Jesus is called the Son of Man (בֶּן־הָאָדָם, ben ha’adam in Hebrew, and ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου in Greek), it emphasizes His solidarity with humanity without implying that He inherited sinful nature. The term "Son of Man" in the Gospels, especially in Daniel 7:13-14, connects Jesus with the figure who represents all people before God and receives authority, glory, and sovereign power. In representing humanity, Jesus does not become sinful but instead fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law on behalf of humanity.

5. Romans 5: Representation and Federal Headship:
Romans 5:12-21 contrasts Adam's role as the federal head of fallen humanity with Christ as the representative of redeemed humanity. Here, the Greek word ὑπέρ (hyper), often translated as "for" or "on behalf of," is crucial. Paul describes Christ’s act of righteousness as being on behalf of those He represents (Romans 5:19: δι’ ὑπακοῆς τοῦ ἑνὸς, "through the obedience of the One"). Christ represents humanity in His obedience, just as Adam represented humanity in his disobedience.

Paul’s language shows that Christ does not inherit sin but rather reverses the effects of sin by becoming the obedient representative. His role as the second Adam means that through His obedience, not sin, He brings life and righteousness (Romans 5:19).

To sum this up in a nutshell for you F2F--

To represent someone does not necessitate becoming identical to them in nature. In the biblical understanding, Jesus represented sinful humanity without becoming sinful Himself. He bore the consequences of sin, acting as the sin offering and fulfilling the role of a perfect substitute, as seen in both the Hebrew sacrificial system and the Greek New Testament language of atonement. Therefore, it is essential to distinguish between representation and inherent transformation-Jesus was not made sinful but was made a sin offering to bring reconciliation between God and humanity.

Christ’s identification with humanity through His title Son of Man and His role as a sin offering does not imply that He became sinful in essence, but rather that He served as the perfect, sinless substitute who bore the penalty of sin on behalf of those He came to save (Isaiah 53:4-6).

You and I are NOT on the same page.

J.

Can you repost this on the other thread thanks J.

You are way off on this - like totally outside of the Inspired Writ.

I'll deal with this over there.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Can you repost this on the other thread thanks J.

You are way off on this - like totally outside of the Inspired Writ.

I'll deal with this over there.

F2F

I know where I stand and have stopped taking it for granted everyone read or study his/her Bibles.

Really not interested engaging with you, nothing edifying here.

J.

 

[face2face]

I know where I stand and have stopped taking it for granted everyone read or study his/her Bibles.

Really not interested engaging with you, nothing edifying here.

J.

The questions are too hard for some and the answers wash away those man-made foundations.
I get it!
F2F

 

[Johann]

The questions are too hard for some and the answers wash away those man-made foundations.
I get it!
F2F

You mean yours, understandably.

J.