When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

[Johann]

@Johann @marks

I'll present this another way as it appears you are having trouble with the question.

1. This goes beyond ‘The Lord hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all’ (Isa 53:6). Christ was not only a sin bearer!

2. God made him to be sin for us was, ‘that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.’ He took our flesh (sin;s flesh) , he was made under the law, and was made to be sin for us, that the SIN's Power might be destroyed, that the captives might be redeemed, and made the righteousness of God in him. Hebrews 2:14-17

Two aspects of the Atonement of which Christian only holds the first (1)

Provided you are honest Johann & Marks that you only hold a belief in (1) then you will find when the Lord comes truth number (2) is where the work of God was done in Christ. You both don't hold that truth...yet

Do you understand?

F2F

Jesus the Messiah in no way, shape or form became sin on that cross as many here believe F2F.

J.

 

[face2face]

@marks you see I respect Johann, as I know he is one who will read #116 and he will piece together all that has been shown him. Now he might return with some unscriptural defense, always possible but he cannot deny the intent of Paul's Gospel in Christ.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Jesus the Messiah in no way, shape or form became sin on that cross as many here believe F2F.

J.

So explain why God raised Jesus up out of a sinful line of men?

For what reason J?

"To be made sin" for you?

Why Sin?

What is it about your nature and sin that God would raise up a Son out of Sin's flesh for you?

Don't pretend to be foolish concerning these facts - think Johann!

F2F

 

[Johann]

See @Johann

Was I wrong to question and to state the obvious?

What Marks has admitted is he doesn't hold to the Apostles teaching that God "made" Christ to be sin for us.

You know this is right what is being shown but I doubt you will place yourself on the Lords side.

Let's see.

F2F

Christ Jesus in no way, shape or form became hamartian in a literal sense on the σταυρός F2F.

J.

 

[face2face]

Christ Jesus in no way, shape or form became hamartian in a literal sense on the σταυρός F2F.

J.

You need this to rest on you for some time J.

How many times did Jesus die to sin?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann I know you are there J.

The question is with you....How many times did Jesus die to sin?

And why was it necessary?

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann I know you are there J.

The question is with you....How many times did Jesus die to sin?

And why was it necessary?

F2F

You are a classic-I asked you a question and you refuse to answer-so now I am doing the same.

J.

 

[face2face]

You are a classic-I asked you a question and you refuse to answer-so now I am doing the same.

J.

What question did you ask J?

 

[face2face]

@Johann #121 & #124 contain no questions, right?

Are you taking the back door?

F2F

 

[Johann]

What question did you ask J?

5th time-did Jesus Christ became sin in a LITERAL sense on the cross-yes, no?

J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann #121 & #124 contain no questions, right?

Are you taking the back door?

F2F

You are so preoccupied, mind racing -not reading my one question to you.

J.

 

[face2face]

5th time-did Jesus Christ became sin in a LITERAL sense on the cross-yes, no?

J.

No, maybe you don't comprehend all that well Johann - maybe you have something in your mind which inhibits you from understand Paul's Gospel? You and I have agree many many times that Christ "knew no sin" - we are not talking about the person of Christ who is without spot and blemish. We are talking about the nature of his sacrifice and what he became in God's eyes on that cross.

He, Jesus was made sin for you.

How many times did Christ die to sin?

And why was it necessary?

F2F

 

[Johann]

No, maybe you don't comprehend all that well Johann - maybe you have something in your mind which inhibits you from understand Paul's Gospel? You and I have agree many many times that Christ "knew no sin" - we are not talking about the person of Christ who is without spot and blemish. We are talking about the nature of his sacrifice and what he became in God's eyes on that cross.

He, Jesus was made sin for you.

How many times did Christ die to sin?

And why was it necessary?

F2F

Jesus' sacrifice was a substitutionary atonement-He bore the penalty for humanity’s sin. This concept is rooted in the idea that Jesus, though sinless, took upon Himself the sins of the world to reconcile mankind to God.

Isaiah 53:5-6 (NKJV):

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
This prophecy illustrates Jesus' role as the suffering servant, taking upon Himself the sins of humanity and bearing them as a sacrificial lamb.
Hebrews 9:28 (NKJV):

"So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
Jesus’ sacrifice was once and for all, fulfilling the Old Testament sacrificial system and replacing the repeated sacrifices of the law with a perfect and eternal offering.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV):

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
This verse encapsulates the nature of the atonement: Jesus, the sinless one, was treated as if He were sin itself, though He remained personally without sin. This is the heart of imputed righteousness, where believers are made righteous through
Christ's sacrificial act.

In a judicial sense, Jesus became the bearer of sin, which was the requirement for the atonement. He was not sinful by nature but was treated as sin, receiving the wrath and judgment that was due for humanity’s sins. This is reflected in Romans 3:25-26, where Jesus is presented as a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) to satisfy the justice of God.

Isaiah 53:10 (NKJV):

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand."
God’s purpose in allowing Jesus to be bruised and crushed was to make His life an offering for sin. In God's eyes, Jesus was the perfect sacrificial lamb who fully satisfied God's justice.
Hebrews 10:12-14 (NKJV):

"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God... For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
After completing the sacrificial work, Jesus is seen by God as the high priest and the perfect sacrifice. He now sits at the right hand of God, signifying that His sacrificial work is complete and accepted by the Father.
Philippians 2:8-9 (NKJV):

"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name."
Jesus' obedience in humbling Himself to death on a cross led God to highly exalt Him, demonstrating that in God’s eyes, Jesus is the exalted Lord and the Savior of humanity.

The nature of Jesus' sacrifice was substitutionary and atoning, making Him the bearer of humanity’s sin without being sinful Himself. In God's eyes, He became the perfect sacrifice who fulfilled the requirements of divine justice, and as a result, He is now exalted as both Lord and Savior, seated at the right hand of the Father.

Shalom and goodnight.
J.

 

[face2face]

Jesus' sacrifice was a substitutionary atonement-He bore the penalty for humanity’s sin. This concept is rooted in the idea that Jesus, though sinless, took upon Himself the sins of the world to reconcile mankind to God.

J.

While taking the high moral ground in previous posts J. it looks like you couldn't repay me the curtesy of answering my questions.

1. We all know why you are reluctant to answer the question..."How many times to Christ die to Sin?" - God having made Christ Sin! The answer is obvious but the moment you answer it, your forced substitutionary atonement is gone forever.
2. As I said earlier you believe in (1) of (2) clear aspects of his death.
3. In another thread @asoul has retired hurt from the same questions where he has five verses, yet to understood on this subject.
4. Another interesting fact is the contrast between your atonement model and that of the Apostles who fully understood Christ without Hypostasis (amazing when truth is grasped!)
5. Here are the verses presently unaccounted for in your atonement model Romans 8:1-3 and 2 Corinthians 5:20-21; Hebrews 2:14-17; Romans 6:9: 1 Peter 2
6. Christ as the suffering servant is representative of us (Son of Man!) in its task and speaks to all those who are in Christ.

• He bore our nature (representative)
• He suffered in the flesh (representative)
• He was under death's dominion (representative)
• He has asked you to crucify the flesh as he has done (representative)
• He has feared death as you do (representative)
• He has been baptised into his own death and resurrection (representative)
• He died to sin just as you will (representative)
• He has been tempted in every way as you (representative)

I could go on J. but I'm certain you get the truth of these points.

I'm just so thankful I am on the side of God's Word when it comes to understand who the true Christ was and not the invention of men.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21​

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King James Version​

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20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Is anything too difficult for God to do. If The Father willed the Son to be sin on the cross and punish our sin by making Jesus that sin- is He not free to do so?

For he hath made him to be sin “ for us”...who knew “ no sin” ,that we might be made “ the “ righteousness “ of God in him.

There was no sin in Jesus Spirit,he was the sin offering who took our sins onto himself....there was no sin in the Spirit Of Jesus...he carried our sins in his body...not his Spirit, that’s my point....I can also understand why he cried out to the Father,” why have you forsaken me” .....we can’t even imagine what it was like to carry the sin of the whole world....it’s bad enough as I remember carrying my own sin as a non believer, not even knowing that I had this burden of sin in me.....not until I became Born Again.....oh the lightness when God forgave my sin and birthed my spirit into His.....my burden of sin was gone and I was in the righteousness of Christ, a new creation in the Lord...his spirit child.

Praise His Holy Name!!!..always, never cease!

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◄ 1 Peter 2:24 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” New Living Translation He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed. English Standard Version He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. Berean Standard Bible He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. “By His stripes you are healed.”

 

[marks]

@marks you see I respect Johann, as I know he is one who will read #116 and he will piece together all that has been shown him. Now he might return with some unscriptural defense, always possible but he cannot deny the intent of Paul's Gospel in Christ.

F2F

If you want to have straightforward and forthright conversation, great. If you want to play games, hide, obfuscate, I'm not interested.

And if we are going to speak about Jesus, let's make sure we're talking about the same one. I'm talking about Jesus in the Bible, the Son of God, Who is God the Son, YHWH incarnated in human flesh. Is that who you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

1. We all know why

We all know why.

Do we all know that? Or is this more manipulative speech? I suppose "we all know" the answer to that!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

We all know why.

Do we all know that? Or is this more manipulative speech? I suppose "we all know" the answer to that!

Much love!

Gnosticism.

J.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are familiar with Greek and you can't see that Jesus in no way, shape or form became hamartia in a LITERAL sense on the cross?

J.

Well that is what the passage says so you need to take it up with the one who inspired Paul to write "He became sin....", I accept God knew what He wanted to say and instructed Paul through the Holy Spirit to write down what He meant.

You should do a stu8dy on the Azazel goat that was driven intro the wilderness. That is a type of Jesus. the high priest laid hands on the goat- transferring the sins of Israel onto the goat and then it was released into the wilderness.

 

[marks]

Well that is what the passage says so you need to take it up with the one who inspired Paul to write "He became sin....", I accept God knew what He wanted to say and instructed Paul through the Holy Spirit to write down what He meant.

You should do a stu8dy on the Azazel goat that was driven intro the wilderness. That is a type of Jesus. the high priest laid hands on the goat- transferring the sins of Israel onto the goat and then it was released into the wilderness.

What does it mean to "become sin"? @Johann walked me through quite a number of Scriptures by the end of which I felt clarified that the scape goat is the best example, as the goat's nature wasn't changed so far as we have any indication, but that it symbolized the carrying off of the sins.

Though not a true carrying off, since it's just a goat. And therefore the need to repeat the sacrifice year by year. To me it seems the heart of the matter is found in two places. One of them is Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, forever. His nature remains divine, sin does not corrupt His heart, nor corrupt His flesh.

The other is that Jesus carried mankind's sin away, that though the death of His body, He removed sin without need for any further sacrifice.


"sin he makes" is not from ginomai, to become, it speaks of the origin of something. This is the word used later in the verse, "that we may be becoming righteousness of God in Him". We become something different.

But where "he is made sin", "epoiesen" is used, from "poieo", which can have a more broad range of meaning based on the context. I have some more mulling to do, but one thing stands out, the "becoming sin" isn't the same as the "becoming righteousness". "Becoming the righteousness of God in Him" speaks directly of being made something different, while poieo doesn't have that same emphasis.

@Johnn . . . am I on track here?

Much love!