We know from the Luke 16 parable of the rich man and Lazarus that there was a place where people were tormented in flames at that time. I haven’t been there personally so I can’t give you physical proof.
The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.
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tailgator
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You said it's a different vision.
Has nothing to do with the beast being destroyed in Daniel 7 and revelation.19.
Daniel 7 and revelation, 19 say the same thing.The beast is destroyed and the kingdom is given to the saints.Revelation. goes on to say the resurrected saints reign with Christ for a thousand years.
You said Christ ascending into heaven is a totally different vision and has nothing to do with the beast being destroyed.
ewq1938
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Only for doctrines that deny the church is the bride, which scripture plainly teaches.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
I know you put a lot of time and effort into changing the font size and color, but that wasn’t one of the issues. You didn’t address one single problem, so I take it your hermeneutics allows for a verse to be taken literally regardless of conflicts.
Let’s look at 1 Timothy 2:15 (NIV) But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Should we stand on our soapbox and declare that only women who give birth can be saved? Maybe if we use a very large font and ignore all other verses we can prove to others that only women who give birth to children can be saved.
Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about the real issues concerning the Church being the bride of Christ.
ewq1938
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I have provided clear scripture that says the church is the bride of Christ. The verse you shared is nothing but a red herring fallacy to change the subject away from the bible teaching the church is the bride.
So is Jesus throwing us a red herring in Luke 20?
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Of course it is. It is the "time" in that phrase.
Half a time was between Daniel and the first coming.
Times was between the first and second comings.
The Day of the Lord is the time.
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
Daniel did not ask. The two who were talking to each other, asked a question and received an answer, during their conversation. So from Daniel until the end of all things, would be 3500 years.
From Daniel until the end of creation will be a time, times, and half a time. Then the GWT Judgment where the rest of the dead "come out of the dust", and some will receive everlasting life who had died between Adam and Eve, and Daniel. The church was never part of the rest of the dead. The church waited in Abraham's bosom, not sheol. The rest of the dead did not receive a resurrection at the Cross. Those in Abraham's bosom received a resurrection at the Cross.
Evidently some amil accept more than one resurrection. There will have been more resurrections than a single one, Daniel talked about at the end of the time, times, and half a time. Daniel was talking about the GWT Judgment event. But Paul said there were 3 times that being made alive happened, where Adam's offspring either were resurrected or translated out of death, into life. Each time happened at the end of each time frame described. One after the half a time, at the Cross. One at the Second Coming, after the times. The last one is when Jesus hands back creation, and all John saw after that, was the LOF when death, sheol, and the sea gave up the dead and all stood before God. At that point some will still receive eternal life, but the majority will enter the LOF.
I only have one point about the Second Coming. There is only one resurrection after the Second Coming, of those beheaded.
Those alive and remain are translated out of death, not resurrected out of death. The rapture does not happen at the same time as those resurrected who were beheaded. Those who live on the earth during the Day of the Lord, are made alive. That should be recognized as there is a new heaven and earth after the Second Coming, and sin has been removed. All born on earth have God's law and righteousness written in their heart and mind, not Adam's transgression.
Paul said that we are under the law of sin and death since birth, not God's righteousness. But the Second Coming changes that. The second birth is not necessary in the Millennial Kingdom. All will be born to live forever even on into the NHNE after Satan is loosed to deceive people. That is when those people who of their own free will, can leave eternal life, and join with Satan in the LOF.
There is the first resurrection of the dead in Christ AT the second coming. The second resurrection of the rest of the dead happens a thousand years later.
They are changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The ascension of Jesus and the OT redeemed was on Sunday morning, after Jesus told Mary He was ascending. Mary was to tell the disciples that He would ascend to the Father that day. This is not the ascension 40 days later.
The OT redeemed were resurrected physically and the firstfruits of those made alive by the act of the Cross. They physically ascended into heaven.
Those alive on the earth at that time were the Firstfruits of the NT redeemed, who leave this body of corruption and enter a permanent incorruptible physical body as an ongoing phenomenon. There is not one group with a physical body, and another group still waiting for one in Paradise. They all have a physical body enjoying the physical tree of life, serving in that physical temple in heaven, day and might.
They do not need redemption of the second birth nor redemption of the physical body, the first resurrection. They are the church in that heavenly country and have been since the Cross.
At the Second Coming, a physical Jesus brings the physical church in heaven with Him, to meet those physically alive on the earth who are redeemed. Those on earth are physically translated out of death, just like Enoch, and no longer found on the earth. Then all in the air are glorified, as symbolized by putting on the robe of white in the 5th Seal, and they are told to wait in Paradise, while Jesus and the angels arrive on the earth in the 6th Seal.
That is the baptism of fire per 2 Peter 3. All the works of the earth, man's works, are all burned up literally, but not humanity, nor God's works. Since all the stars left the heavens that is symbolized as the heavens rolling back and all man's work dissolved in the heavens as well. Paradise is not destroyed nor burned up. Man's science is literally ripped from the mind of humanity and they see the entire creation both spiritual and physical, and are no longer spiritually blind.
Jesus then sits it judgment and justice over billions still alive on the earth, but the church has been removed. The Second Coming can not be Jesus approaching the GWT. But the GWT will be in full view both on earth and in heaven, as God is watching as Jesus carries out His task as the Prince to come. Of course God was always watching sitting there on the GWT. No human could see the throne being spiritually blind since Adam was banned from the Garden. But that throne was mentined in the Psalms. The throne fills both heaven and earth, wherever it is located.
"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
Jesus was physically born in time, the only one directly begotten by God, but His power and authority included the earth past and present. The 7th Trumpet is when those earthly kingdoms have themselves submitted to that eternal authority. But Revelation 13, 17, and 18 happen after the 7th Trumpet has sounded; not prior to. There has been near 2,000 years since that ascension. The 7th Trumpet is still future.
This is true... Daniel is not written in chronological order - and that speaks to almost all of his chapters. Further, Daniel 2 is where God will establish the pattern or how He will present His prophecies in the Book of Daniel (almost all of the chapters). In Chapter 2, Daniel will first present the 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth. He then describes the two and only two actions that will take place (2:34 and 2:35). These verses are presented in the "dream sequence" of verses. They provide the big picture, the formal structure where all events will take place from Babylon to His second coming. Verse 2:34 represents the Messiah's first coming while 2:35 represents His second coming. This establishes His blueprint or structure where His people will travel through and all the events that will take place around them. Most of Daniel (the details) will conclude with the coming of the little horn around 500 AD.
Then Daniel will present the "interpretation sequence" verses. These verses reveal the "details" that will take place WITHIN those same 4 kingdoms identified in the "dream sequence" verses - thus, Daniel does not write in a chronological manner (again, this patter or style will be definitely found in the Hebrew chapters beginning with Chapter 7).
Chapter 7 will indeed follow the same method of presentation, however, it will include TWO dream and interpretation sequence sets of verses. One, of course, will focus on the 4 earthly kingdoms - they can be easily identified with the 4 established in Chapter 2. But now God will have Daniel include a very different set of verses that focus, not on the earthly kingdoms, but the Kingdom of God. In verses 9-10 Daniel would now "watch" a very different scene take place. This is the scene in heaven where all have come together with the Ancient of Days (God the Father). This is the time of judgement in heaven and the "court" was seated, and the books were opened.
However, there is still one person that has yet to arrive that is necessary for this event to continue. Jesus is not yet present. Before verse 13 and 14 will take place, Jesus will go to the cross and sacrifice Himself for our sins. He will be resurrected and after 40 days, He will return to the right hand of His Father. This is what is revealed in verse 13. Jesus will be taken to the right hand of the Father and He will be given dominon over all and everything. Verses 9 and 10 represent the "dream like sequence" verses in the heavenly realm while verses 26 and 27 represent the "interpretation like sequence" verses in the heavenly realm.
All other verses in Chapter 7 represent either a "dream or interpretion" like verse that speaks to the 4 earthly kingdoms only.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is not even the church. It is for a few who live on the earth for the next 1,000 years.
Who are these dead in Christ you are talking about? 1 Corinthians 15:52 is talking about those on the earth waiting to be changed. Those in Paradise are already changed.
Paul explained all that in verses 20-28. You cannot take one verse out of context from a chapter and make it say something the verse is not saying. Paul said one cannot be in Paradise without being changed, and all in Christ are currently in Paradise who have physically died. They have already been changed. Only the dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are raised from the earth incorruptible. You are still considered dead, because that is what the word mortal means. You are in a state of physical death, even though physically alive. You have Adam's corruption that you need to be raised out of and changed to incorruption. The second birth does not change the physical body. The first resurrection changes the physical body to a permanent incorruptible physical body. But the body does not change. The soul changes bodies like a set of clothes.
The Church is still on earth as long as people are on the earth with the second birth. But they are not to the point the soul has left Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those in Paradise already have a permanent incorruptible physical body. Because, since the Cross, the soul has not been left in a state of death, for the redeemed. They have passed from death into life, and have a permanent incorruptible physical body of life. Otherwise they would be the rest of the dead, still in sheol.
If there is a resurrection at the end of the thousand years, then others will be given eternal life as Daniel told us. No one will be given the first resurrection and second birth, then tossed into the LOF. Only those who accept the second birth at the GWT Judgment will be given the first resurrection into eternal life. Daniel wrote that some would be raised at that point and given eternal life. But until then, they are just the rest of the dead. They have no life whatsoever.
The second birth distinguishes the dead from the rest of the dead. Jesus once said let the dead bury their dead. Both were dead but we see that in one point the dead were physically alive while buring those dead who were physically not alive. So the dead referred to both those alive and not physically alive. That was Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 15:52. These dead will be physically alive, but needed the first resurrection, which is out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Spiritually they had the second birth. Physically they were still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
Physical death is not being made dead for those with the second birth, but alive, since the soul has been translated out of dead flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body made by God and not human genes passed down from generation to generation. That first resurrection happened to all those in Abraham's bosom at the Cross. They all ascended physically Sunday morning, just like the church will physically ascend at the Second Coming, from the earth. Neither event are souls without bodies ascending to heaven. They had a physical body when they ascended. Paul pointed out that in the twinkling of an eye, those on the earth will be removed from death, and physically ascend in a new body from the earth. That is what being changed means.
It says they were beheaded/ killed so it is not those who are alive and waiting on earth.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do you think these are souls from the last 2 millennia?
These beheaded are not what Paul was declaring in 1 Corinthians 15.
They are not the dead in Christ. They are dead souls waiting to receive a resurrection to live on the earth, and reign with Christ. Who are they reigning over is the big question? Themselves? Or is their job to start a family and subdue the earth per Genesis 1:28
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
Paul said the millennium is for Jesus to bring all things under subjection. Part of the command given to those created on the 6th day was to subdue the earth, bring it under subjection.
"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Adam was supposed to fill the Garden of Eden as part of his task of subduing the earth. Probably the same area Abraham was given. Adam failed. Abraham's offspring failed. The Day of Lord will not fail, even if there is a rebellion at the end. So the best reward offered to these beheaded is to rule over their families and the area of the earth entrusted to them. They will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They will not spread sin and wickedness to their offspring, nor will their offspring be sinners. Redemption will not be part of bringing the earth under subjection. Being obedient to Jesus as King will be their focus.
Yes, the souls of the dead in Christ. The physical body is dead, not the soul/spirit.
Paul said they were asleep. Again the soul is not dead, it is the physical body that is dead and is to be resurrected at the last day.
They will be reigning over the remnant of the Nations whose lives were prolonged during the thousand years.
Daniel 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You keep changing Revelation around. Those beheaded in Revelation 20:4 are not from the last 2 millennia.
They only died in the previous 42 month period. They are not the dead in Christ, and you keep changing the subject to something else.
Daniel 7 is talking about the time after the Reformation took place. We still have people living in Iraq. People are still living in Iran. People are still living in Greece. People are still living in Italy. These people were not removed from existence, but their offspring are still alive today.
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