Wise Men

[Nephesh]

However, do you believe Hell is eternal?

Only God is eternal, as in has no beginning or end. Hell had a beginning, as God created it for Lucifer and the other angels when they rebelled against Him. Punishment in Hell, just as the reward of life in Heaven, is what's eternal, as in never ending.

Revelation 20:13,14 says, among other things, that “Hell gave up those dead in it.” And that “death and Hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire.”

What do you think this means?

Still working on this one, because I want to make sure I'm articulating myself accurately.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you're done with our discussion because you on some level understand the logic in what I said below, then that's good. If not, and there's something in what I said that you want to address, then I hope you do.

I am not fond of rehashing the same arguments over and over…..I have stated what I believe and you are free to believe what you believe, and I will leave it at that….no point in going over the same stuff…..it will not produce a different outcome.

 

[Nephesh]

I am not fond of rehashing the same arguments over and over…..I have stated what I believe and you are free to believe what you believe, and I will leave it at that….no point in going over the same stuff…..it will not produce a different outcome.

You actually haven't addressed my argument from post #51 in your post #52 . I'll quote my argument below:

"At King Herod's palace in Jerusalem, at the time of the Magi's arrival, he learned from them that the King of the Jews had been born, as well as learned from the chief priests and teachers of the Law that he had been born in Bethlehem. There would've been no further need for the star past this point, because King Herod had learned the location of where the King of the Jews had been born, so he could have Him killed, which you claim was the purpose of satan having sent the star.

Therefore, since the purpose of the star had been accomplished at that point, after the Magi departed Jerusalem, despite King Herod's order to return and tell him the King of the Jew's exact location in Bethlehem, satan could've hidden the star from the Magi to prevent them from offering their gifts and paying homage to/worshiping the very person he hated and wanted to be killed, whether as an earthly king or as God, and King Herod still would've gone on to fulfil the prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15), because prophecies came to pass.

That's another reason why satan couldn't have been the one who sent the star. God is the One Who sent the angels and the star, as well as warned the Magi not to return to King Herod. God's foreknowledge and allowance of King Herod's evil act makes Him no more "responsible" than of any other evil act that He has foreseen and allowed. He gave man a free will, to do good or evil, because there is no merit in coercion."

I'm sure if you have a counter-argument to the above then you'll reply with it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You actually haven't addressed my latest new argument (post #51) in post #52 . I'll quote my argument below:

"At King Herod's palace in Jerusalem, at the time of the Magi's arrival, he learned from them that the King of the Jews had been born, as well as learned from the chief priests and teachers of the Law that he had been born in Bethlehem. There would've been no further need for the star past this point, because King Herod had learned the location of where the King of the Jews had been born, so he could have Him killed, which you claim was the purpose of satan having sent the star.

I believe that you keep missing the point…..Herod wanted to know where the child could be located…he knew the town, but not where in the town this particular infant could be found. The magi would save him the bother. When he realized that they weren’t coming back…then he indiscriminately murdered all the male infants, 2 years of age and under.
By leading the magi directly to Jesus satan was making sure that the deed would be carried out. God was way ahead of him.
It’s all there but you just can’t seem to grasp it.

Therefore, since the purpose of the star had been accomplished at that point, after the Magi departed Jerusalem, despite King Herod's order to return and tell him the King of the Jew's exact location in Bethlehem, satan could've hidden the star from the Magi to prevent them from offering their gifts and paying homage to/worshiping the very person he hated and wanted to be killed, whether as an earthly king or as God, and King Herod still would've gone on to fulfil the prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15), because prophecies came to pass.

Why are you obsessed with the gifts…..I explained that already. It was not done to fulfill that prophesy but the outcome confirmed what Jeremiah had foretold. Prophesy is history written in advance. No one knew what that scripture was about until Herod carried out his plan. And since Rachel was “weeping over her sons”….it is apparent that she lost more than one.

That's another reason why satan couldn't have been the one who sent the star. God is the One Who sent the angels and the star, as well as warned the Magi not to return to King Herod. God's foreknowledge and allowance of King Herod's evil act makes Him no more "responsible" than of any other evil act that He has foreseen and allowed. He gave man a free will, to do good or evil, because there is no merit in coercion."

I'm sure if you have a counter-argument to the above then you'll reply with it.

No counter arguments seem to make a scrap of difference, so again, what is the point of rehashing. I do not find your arguments convincing at all.
God sent his angels to his own people to herald the birth of his son…..he had no reason to send a star to worshippers of other gods in a foreign country, especially those who engaged in practices that were forbidden to his own people. Their presence set off a murderous plot resulting in the deaths of countless infants.

That’s it.

 

[Nephesh]

I believe that you keep missing the point…..Herod wanted to know where the child could be located…he knew the town, but not where in the town this particular infant could be found. The magi would save him the bother. When he realized that they weren’t coming back…then he indiscriminately murdered all the male infants, 2 years of age and under.
By leading the magi directly to Jesus satan was making sure that the deed would be carried out. God was way ahead of him.
It’s all there but you just can’t seem to grasp it.

Why are you obsessed with the gifts…..I explained that already. It was not done to fulfill that prophesy but the outcome confirmed what Jeremiah had foretold. Prophesy is history written in advance. No one knew what that scripture was about until Herod carried out his plan. And since Rachel was “weeping over her sons”….it is apparent that she lost more than one.

No counter arguments seem to make a scrap of difference, so again, what is the point of rehashing. I do not find your arguments convincing at all.
God sent his angels to his own people to herald the birth of his son…..he had no reason to send a star to worshippers of other gods in a foreign country, especially those who engaged in practices that were forbidden to his own people. Their presence set off a murderous plot resulting in the deaths of countless infants.

That’s it.

At King Herod's palace in Jerusalem, at the time of the Magi's arrival, he learned from them that the King of the Jews had been born, as well as learned from the chief priests and teachers of the Law that he had been born in Bethlehem. There would've been no further need for the star past this point, because King Herod had learned the location of where the King of the Jews had been born, so he could have Him killed, which you claim was the purpose of satan having sent the star.

Therefore, since the purpose of the star had been accomplished at that point, after the Magi departed Jerusalem, despite King Herod's order to return and tell him the King of the Jew's exact location in Bethlehem, satan could've hidden the star from the Magi to prevent them from offering their gifts and paying homage to/worshiping the very person he hated and wanted to be killed, whether as an earthly king or as God, and King Herod still would've gone on to fulfil the prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15), because prophecies came to pass.

If King Herod really needed or wanted to know the exact location of the King of the Jews, then he would've sent someone else to look for Him in Bethlehem, after the Magi didn't return, so as to avoid killing more innocents. And, you attribute something to satan that he wouldn't have done and didn't need to do, which was lead people to pay homage to/worship the King of the Jews, whether as an earthly king or as God.

 

[Jack]

Speaking uncharitably isn't charity (love).

Quoting Jesus is. He warned us of EVERLASTING FIRE!

Unlike you, Jesus knew the eternal fate of each person,

Never said I did. But the Bible reveals the hearts!!!

and yet He still didn't tell those Who He knew would spend eternity in Hell that they were going to Hell. He spoke to and treated them with charity (love) by continuing to preach the ways in which to reach Heaven, and living by example, so that they could never say they weren't given every opportunity to convert. Do you dare to be more uncharitable than Jesus towards souls you don't know the eternal fate of?

No, I just quote Jesus. He said BILLIONS will burn in Hell, "forever and ever".

 

[Jack]

You do that with compelling counter arguments. And being kind and charitable.
Otherwise, it’s just abusive behavior.

I do it with Scripture! That upsets lots of 'Christians'.

 

[Jack]

You know that me and @TheHC were referring to how one speaks and acts towards another regarding charity, not quoting Scripture. Rather than deflect you should reflect on what Jesus says about charity towards one neighbor.

Oh I constantly quote Jesus, and that upsets lots of 'Christians'!

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER ...

 

[Jack]

And what am I "deflecting?" I'm directly addressing what you say.

Give us some Scripture, as I always do.

 

[TheHC]

This is sort of old, I know, but maybe this will help?…

At King Herod's palace in Jerusalem, at the time of the Magi's arrival, he learned from them that the King of the Jews had been born, as well as learned from the chief priests and teachers of the Law that he had been born in Bethlehem. There would've been no further need for the star past this point, because King Herod had learned the location of where the King of the Jews had been born, so he could have Him killed, which you claim was the purpose of satan having sent the star.

Exactly!

If Jesus is in Bethlehem, and the Magi wanted to honor him,
why did the “Star” take them to King Herod first?

So Herod would find out, and try to kill Jesus!

 

[LuxMundy]

If Jesus is in Bethlehem, and the Magi wanted to honor him, why did the “Star” take them to King Herod first?

So Herod would find out, and try to kill Jesus!

You attribute something to Satan that he wouldn't have done, which was ultimately send a star to lead the Magi to the King of the Jews in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did (Matt. 2:11). In other words, it'd be uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him.

 

[TheHC]

You attribute something to Satan that he wouldn't have done, which was send a star to lead the Magi to Jesus in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, the King of the Jews, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did.

If you won’t answer my question & address the issue, then why respond?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you won’t answer my question & address the issue, then why respond?

It’s like talking to a brick wall..... no one can hear with their fingers in their ears.

 

[Jericho]

I have researched the Magi before. This is what I previously wrote about them:

The Magi were a hereditary priesthood of the Medes within the Persian Empire. They had a priesthood similar to the Levitical priesthood, except they were gentiles. They were skilled in astronomy and astrology and had many occult practices, including sorcery, divination, and interpreting dreams. Their name comes from the Latin form of the Greek word magoi, and it’s also where the word “magician” comes from. Their cultural religion was influenced by Judaism and later by Zoroastrianism.

Daniel the prophet was a Rab-mag, the Chief of the Magi. It’s apparent Daniel’s influence and that of the Jews living in Persia had introduced and influenced the Magi to the God of the Torah. Daniel’s prophecies were obviously revered by the Magi and would later be used to point them in the direction of the Messiah.

Contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn’t say there were only three wise men. Being men of prestige and honor and carrying precious gifts would have entailed a large contingent to escort and protect them. It is estimated that they were accompanied by a thousand mounted Persian cavalrymen alone. They came from the Parthian Empire, also known as the Medio-Persian Empire, which was often at war with Rome. It's no wonder then why Herod and all of Jerusalem were greatly alarmed by their arrival.

The presence of the Magi in Jerusalem was quite significant. They held enormous influence within the Persian Empire. Aside from selecting judges and controlling the judicial office, they also selected kings. They were so powerful that it was said a Persian could not become king until he mastered the scientific and religious discipline of the Magi, and was approved and crowned by the Magi. This king-maker status would not have been lost on Herod. They continued to be prominent during the subsequent Seleucid, Parthian, and Sasanian periods.

It's uncertain how the Magi knew when the Messiah would be born apart from Numbers 24:17, which states, “A Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel”. However, Daniel was shown by Gabriel the archangel an overview of world history, including the precise day Jesus would present Himself as king to Jerusalem (Dan 9:25–26). It is conceivable then that the date of His birth was also revealed to Daniel but hidden to only a select group so as to not tip the hand of those who would seek to harm Him.

 

[LuxMundy]

If you won’t answer my question & address the issue, then why respond?

I didn't answer your question posed in post #90 because it's a hypophora, also referred to as anthypophora, which is a rhetorical device where the speaker poses a question and then immediately answers it. Therefore, I responded to your answer with the following:

"You attribute something to Satan that he wouldn't have done, which was ultimately send a star to lead the Magi to the King of the Jews in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did (Matt. 2:11). In other words, it'd be uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him."

 

[TheHC]

I didn't answer your question because it's a hypophora, also referred to as anthypophora, which is a rhetorical device where the speaker poses a question and then immediately answers it. Therefore, I responded to your answer with the following:

"You attribute something to Satan that he wouldn't have done, which was ultimately send a star to lead the Magi to the King of the Jews in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did (Matt. 2:11). In other words, it'd be uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him."

I didn't answer your question because it's a hypophora, also referred to as anthypophora, which is a rhetorical device where the speaker poses a question and then immediately answers it. Therefore, I responded to your answer with the following:

"You attribute something to Satan that he wouldn't have done, which was ultimately send a star to lead the Magi to the King of the Jews in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did (Matt. 2:11). In other words, it'd be uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him."

That was no answer to my question.
First of all, how do you know what “Satan…. wouldn’t have done”? He’s a master of deception. - 2 Corinthians 11:14…
“….Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.”

Obviously, the source of this light was trying to get Jesus killed, that is why it took the Magi to Herod, first.


I have another question:
How important is truth to you? I’m quite sure you’d agree that truth is of prime importance to Christians.

So that being said….

Did you know that the entire “Nativity” scene, often depicted on Church property during Christmas, is a lie, also?

In the Nativity scene, it shows the Magi bringing their gifts, to Jesus in the manger.

Is that what the Bible says?
Not at all!
Matthew 2:11 tells us….
“After they had heard the king, they went their way, and look! the star they had seen when they were in the East went ahead of them until it came to a stop above where the young child was. 10 On seeing the star, they rejoiced with great joy. 11 And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh.”

By this time, Jesus was a “young child” who was living in a “house”!


Did you know this?

What do you think about this?

It’s one thing to accidentally repeat a lie, thinking it’s true…. It’s quite another to know something is false, and keep on promoting it!

What does it tell you about the churches of Christendom that promote this, knowing it’s a lie?

How do you feel about this?

 

[LuxMundy]

That was no answer to my question.

Again, I didn't answer your question that you posed in post #90 because it's a hypophora, also referred to as anthypophora, which is a rhetorical device where the speaker poses a question and then immediately answers it. Therefore, my reply was a response to your answer to it.

First of all, how do you know what “Satan…. wouldn’t have done”?

We agree on what Satan wanted to have done: the King of the Jews killed. Therefore, if Satan had sent the star, why would He ultimately send it to lead the Magi to the King of the Jews in Bethlehem, Whom he wanted killed, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king, or as God, which they did (Matt. 2:11)? In other words, would it not have been uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him?

I have another question:
How important is truth to you? I’m quite sure you’d agree that truth is of prime importance to Christians.

So that being said….

Did you know that the entire “Nativity” scene, often depicted on Church property during Christmas, is a lie, also?

In the Nativity scene, it shows the Magi bringing their gifts, to Jesus in the manger.

Is that what the Bible says?
Not at all!
Matthew 2:11 tells us….
“After they had heard the king, they went their way, and look! the star they had seen when they were in the East went ahead of them until it came to a stop above where the young child was. 10 On seeing the star, they rejoiced with great joy. 11 And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh.”

By this time, Jesus was a “young child” who was living in a “house”!


Did you know this?

What do you think about this?

It’s one thing to accidentally repeat a lie, thinking it’s true…. It’s quite another to know something is false, and keep on promoting it!

What does it tell you about the churches of Christendom that promote this, knowing it’s a lie?

How do you feel about this?

I did know that Jesus's Nativity displays often include the Magi with the Shepherds at the manger, and the Christians who I know that display them, including myself, didn't rewrite the Bible, but are rather reading and teaching from the Bible which says that the Magi paid homage to/worshiped Jesus in a house at a later time, and thus we know the accurate timeline of these two events. Therefore, the display of the Nativity including the Magi obviously isn't to deceive, but perhaps that started in order depict two separate scenes at the same time, since both groups arrived to see Him for the same purpose? Have you researched the reason why?

 

[TheHC]

Oh grief….

In other words, would it not have been uncharacteristic and contradictory of Satan to use the Magi to instigate the killing of the King of the Jews, and then lead them to the King of the Jews, so that they could pay homage to/worship Him?

The light led the magi to Herod, first! There was no reason for that, other than informing Herod so that Herod would try to kill him. The Magi were just unwitting accomplices.

I did know that Jesus's Nativity displays often include the Magi with the Shepherds at the manger, and the Christians who I know that display them, including myself, didn't rewrite the Bible, but are rather reading and teaching from the Bible which says that the Magi paid homage to/worshiped Jesus in a house at a later time, and thus we know the accurate timeline of these two events. Therefore, the display of the Nativity including the Magi obviously isn't to deceive, but perhaps that started in order depict two separate scenes at the same time, since both groups arrived to see Him for the same purpose? Have you researched the reason why?

I asked you how you feel about the magi depiction in the Nativity scene, since it’s not true.

I appreciate your honesty in saying you did know.

But then you were actually attempting to justify it, right? It seemed so, to me.

But applying Jesus’ words at Luke 16:10…
If Christendom knowingly promotes this lie, they’d have no qualms about promoting others they know are lies.

If we are aware of it, we should be no part of an outright lie. We know who originated them.
John 8:44.

2 Corinthians 6:17

Good night, my cousin.

 

[LuxMundy]

The light led the magi to Herod, first! There was no reason for that, other than informing Herod so that Herod would try to kill him. The Magi were just unwitting accomplices.

The Magi didn't inform King Herod that the King of the Jews had been born to instigate his murder, but rather entered King Herod's palace asking him the birthplace of the King of the Jews, thinking he would know as he was a king himself, explaining that they wanted to pay homage to/worship Him, not instigate his murder (Matt. 2:1-2). If Satan had sent the star, he was more than capable of finding men to follow it who shared the same evil blood lust as King Herod to see the King of the Jews killed and make it known then and there, considering he later found an evil man to instigate His murder: Judas Iscariot. The fact that Satan's will to see the King of the Jews killed was through the instigation of a man like Judas, a man who was unlike the Magi, to accomplish that will, it doesn't make sense for him to have chosen men like the Magi in the first place to instigate His death, especially considering the star ultimately led them to the King of the Jews so that they could accomplish their will to pay homage to/worship Him, which they did (Matt. 2:11), and Satan wouldn't have wanted that.

Therefore, God sent the star, the Magi began following it after discovering it meant the Messiah, the King of the Jews, had been born, the Magi stopped at King Herod's palace in their journey to learn the location of His birthplace, which was revealed to them by King Herod's chief priests and scribes, the Magi weren't told by King Herod that he wanted to kill Him upon learning of His birth, but rather were lied to, and they believed him, but God was protecting Jesus and them, and so He sent His angel to warn them not to return to Herod.

I appreciate your honesty in saying you did know.

Why would I lie? And, how could I not know? It's in Scripture. And every other Christian I know, including the Catholic Church, knows it for the same reason.

I asked you how you feel about the magi depiction in the Nativity scene, since it’s not true.

If I felt it was done to be intentionally misleading then I wouldn't feel good about it, but I don't feel that's the case. Would I prefer that the Nativity depictions not include the Magi? Yes, but that's just my personal preferance, but I'd still want the adoration/worship of the Magi depicted as well. Now, for ascetic reasons, I can see how it would look rather cluttered to have two scenes separately depicted in art, or on someone's lawn or table, etc. That's why I said perhaps the inclusion of the Magi with the shepherds in the Nativity depictions started in order depict two separate scenes at the same time, since both groups arrived to see Him for the same purpose? Or, perhaps they felt the depiction of the very act of adoration/worship by both the shepherds and the Magi matters more than where it's taking place, and so it was decided to depict two scenes at the same time, and chose the birthplace of Jesus as the setting for both as it's the most significant? Whatever the reason, again, I don't mind depicting the Magi with the shepherds, and I don't see the purpose of anyone doing that to deceive others, nor does it take away from the message these acts of adoration/worship gives, and if anyone did do it with the intention to deceive, that would be asinine, considering most Christians, if not all, can and have read in Scripture that the Magi weren't present with the Shepherds at Jesus's Nativity. The most important detail is depicting the adoration/worship by the shepherds and Magi to Jesus.

 

[TheHC]

It’s like talking to a brick wall..... no one can hear with their fingers in their ears.

Many don’t want to reason on the text.

Αnd apparently, lying is ok. (The Devil is getting - and has gotten - big kicks out of it.)

I mean, the very idea of God approving of pagan magicians & astrologers - those practicing activities that God condemns - to honor His Son, should be abhorrent!


There again though, we see that the majority of professed Christians think it’s ok to join the world & kill their brothers during its conflicts. So we shouldn’t be surprised that “a few” lies are knowingly covered over.

I hope these ones wake up!

It will be wonderful when all False Religious institutions (“Babylon the Great” - Revelation 17 & 18) will be destroyed by Earth’s preeminent political element (the “Scarlet-colored Wild Beast”), along with their lies!

Mankind needs a break!