The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

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Hepzibah

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My question is, how do you make that walk consistent? At the present time, not being in Theosis, you are waiting for it to happen to you again, and until then, there is nothing you can do aside from try to be as yielded as you can be, knowing there is nothing you can do to "make it happen", so you simply wait for it from God, hoping that one day He will do this for you again. Is that a fair statement?

Much love!
It's rather more complicated than this. From my studies, it seems that it is common for one to lose the 'blessing' a few times till one becomes established. The pillar remaining in the temple.

It seems that both Peter and Paul were established after their 'errors' as nothing further is recorded. I don't understand where I am at presently as two thoughts have arisen. One is that some deeper healing was required first.

When I walked in the Spirit previously, no trauma symptoms (of which I was still ignorant) as far as I can see were there. No anxiety or depression either. This would fit in with what therapist Adam Mussa claims about trauma. He does not follow everyone else in trauma healing and claims that it is in the spirit and is explained here:


I did do a 5 day course and one recent incident of trauma that I attempted to 'disintegrate' worked within the half an hour spent on it. I was amazed yet have many questions about his methods and charges for his service. It is on the lines of EMDR and he says the trauma is completely gone which I found after it had been an intruding thought for 10 months.

I am still in the midst of discovering how much cPTSD had affected my life and where this fits in with my spiritual experiences.

Then I wonder whether God has placed a removal of this globally for His end time plans. I just have not been able to work it all out as my mind is also shot from late stage Lyme Disease which wrecks your mind on its own. So I am awaiting guidance.

Normally there are things you can do, such as just believe that it is a fact and step into it as Gen. Booth (SA) wrote which helped me at one time. But always, whatever befalls us, trust in God is paramount.
 
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Hepzibah

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@marks
On the question of Job, I wrote a study on him:

Many identify with Job because they see themselves or others as victims, expressing their disappointment towards a silent God, for failing to step in to prevent their suffering, due to not understanding that Job's contention was not over this issue. In this essay, I propose that Job was fully submitted to the will of God, the true remedy for the lack of peace and joy in his people, as Paul writes: I am overjoyed in all affliction 2 Cor. 7.4, and that his grief was due to the loss of his sense of God's presence and therefore the silence of heaven, which resulted from the challenge the accuser made, that the principle of love, under the New Covenant, is not superior to that of control. The challenge was that God should step down from his throne if Job could be proven to be unholy, not serving out of love alone1 as R. Sutherland said, and the best that God could produce.

LIGHT.


Job's reaction to sudden and profound loss, was to accept it with grace as if from the hand of God, with thanksgiving and praise. We are presented with a man who walks in the Spirit, a faithful servant of Almighty God. Later he would lament:

O that I were as in the months of old
as in the days when God watched over me
when his lamp shone over my head and by his light
I walked through darkness when I was in my prime.
29.2-4.

'It did not matter whether deep darkness might be around him for, by the light of God, he saw the path, and was able to walk with him through
darkness'2 explains J. Penn-Lewis. For Job, each successive blow is accepted magnanimously: The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 1.21. On recounting his past experiences 29.23, Job does not speak of his worldly loss, but expresses his grief about his loss of light, or in other words, the presence of God.

Paul H. Jones writes that Job believed in the law of karma 3 but I posit that he was demonstrating that he knew that his children were still operating under the old covenant, when he made sacrifice for them, which was also the theology of the 'friends' whereas he himself lived now in the light of the New Covenant or love, which can be shown by his acceptance of evil as being non retributive: Shall we receive the good from the hand of God and not receive the bad? 2.10. Job is shown to be a holy man, walking in the light, having put on the righteousness of God.

INTO DARKNESS AND SILENCE.

The story moves on to where his 'friends' join him in the ash-pit outside of the city walls. The thing which he had dreaded the most, had occurred, leaving him speechless: The heavens were silent; God had departed, and creation has seemingly been reversed. This situation, known by others who walk closely with God, has been called 'The Dark Night of the Soul' by St John of the Cross.4 The deserted lover in this case is not at fault and sought him but found him not, Song of Solomon 3.1. Likewise from J.S. Bach:
If each day is filled with sorrow
And lamentation does not vanish
Ah, then this pain must

Pave the way to death
My dearest God lets me
Still call in vain. 5

Job pleads, Make me know my transgressions and my sin, 13.23. All of the understanding of his past dealings with God were being demolished because there is silence regarding his request and readiness to repent, had he inadvertently sinned. His claim to sinlessness was due to light given, but now, circumstances lead him to believe that his convictions are in doubt, which brought extreme confusion and despair.

As D. Tidball says 'His theology tells him that he ought not to be ignored by God at such a time as this. His experience tells him that he is being deserted by God. The God whom he has trusted until now, is he believes, a God of power who answers prayer and saves people in need.'6 But Job feels that God has become his enemy and is atacking him, the name YHWH being changed to El-Shaddai denoting destruction Is. 13.6, in the poetic section of the book 3.1- 42.6. To deal with El-Shaddai is a bitter and terrible experience, as in: Call me Mara (bitter) for El-Shaddai has dealt bitterly with me, Ruth 1.20, noted by J. G. Janzen. 7

VOICES.

I believe that we may interpret the voices of the four friends, as trains of thought personified, which run through Job's mind during this period of utter darkness, as human understanding and the accuser's arrows are pitted against the light which he had previously received, if we consider the following: he claims that he is deserted by family and friends 16.7; 19.13; he is in a place of isolation and shame, where those with infectious diseases dwell, and it seems unlikely to me that his 'friends' would take a risk in entering such a place, showing such loyalty, the reality being, that when calamity strikes, friends are most often, nowhere to be seen; and also because one of the distinguishing marks of being in the 'dark night' is that one finds onself deserted by all, as the presence of friends would have given a degree of comfort, despite their differing theologies.

The depth of suffering can be appreciated with more clarity, moreover, if one considers that Job goes through a trial of extreme confusion with the contest taking place in his mind and which enables us to identify with it more easily in a similar trial.

There is also the matter of the style of the speeches, where there is no direct communication, the reasoning going round and round in circles and often called wind 8.2; 15.2; 16.3, and which is confirmed when God speaks out of the whirlwind 38.1 denoting confusion. Gutiérrez describes it helpfully as ' the arguments are like a wheel spinning in the air.' 8

TEMPTATION

Job is taunted throughout the speeches, by two thoughts, the first of which has been the temptation of the enemy since the beginning: Did God say? Genesis 3.1. God had declared Job sinless, and the accuser desired that Job would doubt it, losing his testimony. The voices taunted him with the thought that if indeed he was sinless, then God would have no reason to withdraw. If Job admitted he was not, then God would restore him as he desired. The issue was over Job's righteousness, and what is special about Job, is that he brings illumination to the severest of trial in the spiritual realm with which Jesus himself also had to contend, that is the seeming desertion of God in the hour of need of his most devout servants.

In this crucible, the words of the sufferer seem beyond comprehension, being so exaggerated and dramatic. We find the same also with Jeremiah, David, and Christian mystics. Job responds with increasing confusion until he reaches the depth of despair.

RESOLUTION

Finally, we see the curtain drawn back as God returns and speaks, as we are given a glimpse of the administration of the heavenly and earthly realms, where love and freedom rules, and not might, as we are shown the freedom that God gives his creation, and which has been denied to him by the demands made by Job in his grief.

Job finally understands the purpose of the silence for himself and also for those who are willing to do all things without murmuring and arguing so that you may be blameless and innocent children of God without blemish, Phil. 2.14-15.

CONCLUSION.

Job is convicted and repents of his lamentation of the loss of God's presence (in dust and ashes) and has at last understood that he must walk by faith in the light already given. Even enjoyment of the presence of God must be given up willingly to worship the giver of the gift and not the gift itself. He is validated in that he had spoken correctly about God, that the trial was not because he sinned, and the accuser(s) were wrong. Finally, 'Job reflects the gratitious love of God'9 as P. H. Jones puts it, wanting nothing for himself, happy to allow God to grace with his presence at his choosing, and willing to walk by faith alone, in unquestioning loyalty. Job's maturity is complete.
 
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Hepzibah

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BIBLIOGRAPHY.

All scriptures quoted are from the NRSV.

Bach, J.S. The Complete Cantatas. Translated by R. Stokes. Toronto: The Scarecrow Press, 2004.

Cross, St John of the. Ascent of Mount Carmel. Translated by E. Allison Peers. London: Burns and Oats, 1983.

Gutiérrez, Gustavo. On Job: God-Talk And The Suffering Of The Innocent. Maryknoll: Orbis, 1987.

Jansen, Gerald J. At the Scent of Water: The Ground Of Hope in the Book of Job. Grand Rapids: Eerdmanns, 2009.

Jones, Paul H. Job's Way Through Pain: Karma, Clichés & Questions. Milton Keynes: Paternoster, 2014.

Penn-Lewis, Jessie. The Story of Job. Fort Washington: CLC, 1996.

Sutherland, Robert. Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job. British Columbia: Trafford, 2004.

Tidball, Derek. The Message of the Cross. Nottingham: Inter-Varsity Press, 2001.

1Robert Sutherland, Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job. (British Columbia:Trafford 2004), 34.
2Jessie Penn-Lewis, The Story of Job. (Fort Washington:CLC 1996), 11.

3 Paul H. Jones, Job's Way Through Pain: Karma, Clichés & Questions. (Milton Keynes: Paternoster, 2014)
4St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel. (London: Burns and Oats 1983)
5J.S. Bach, The Complete Cantatas. (trans. R Stokes; Toronto: The Scarecrow Press, 2004) BWV 13.
6Derek Tidball, The Message of the Cross, (Nottingham: Intervarsity Press, 2001), 86.
7J Gerald Janzen, At the Scent of Water: The Ground of Hope in the Book of Job. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmanns, 2009), 92.
8Gustavo Gutiérrez, On Job: God Talk and the Suffering of the Innocent. (Maryknoll:Orbis, 1987), 29.
9Paul H. Jones School of Theology class 2014.
 

Hepzibah

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I see a similar single theme, slightly different. That God made man and gave him life to be in fellowship with God, recipients of God's love, reflections of God's love. Sin brought death which broke that fellowship.

God's answer to man's problem was that someone else die, someone who wasn't guilty, and therefore would survive that death. Someone who can unite with all of God's created people. Someone who could confer life to the guilty and dead, so as to restore that fellowship with God. Someone who can undo the corruption of sin, breaking the cycle. Someone who shepherds us into the live of righteousness, having broken sin's power over us.


Yes, this is all too much the case, as I'm coming to learn. It's by resting in Christ's finished work that we gain victory over sin, and a life of love and peace and joy and gentleness and self control and all that He brings into our lives.

Resting in Christs' finished work yes, but you have missed out the cross as it is applied to us. It means our consent to the old man being killed, which results in a state of being without sin. Yet you say that this crucifixion took place without us, which is the only interpretation we can have if we can be saved yet still sin even though unintentionally. Or that it is a gradual death, which I do not find in scripture. Dead or alive.

Also why would Paul dare to tell men to imitate him if he had some unseen sin?
I'm coming to see that this rest is entered into by faith, that He's already given this to us, and sometimes He gives us a boost into it.

I think where Paul said he can do all things through Christ who strengthens him, that he was speaking towards enduring all circumstances whether plentious or not without sin.

Job is our example, all that he endured, the loss of nearly everything, yet through it all Job didn't sin, he endured without sin.

Much love!
 
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Hepzibah

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It's a matter of getting used to the new way of thinking and feeling. I believe this is our true state in Christ when we are not being deceived by what our flesh wants, as though it were us.

It is putting off the old man. Looking more deeply into the truth of this faith strengthens, not weakens it. The will power involved is only about where to direct my mind, my attention. Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.


Agreed! But what that actually means to each of us is different. Narratives will only illustrate the truths taught, they will not modify the truts taught to be different from the words used.

Let me think about what to say. I think I've already described this earlier in the thread, but that's a needle in a haystack now! :-)

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

From the NLT:
3 As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. I don’t even trust my own judgment on this point. 4 My conscience is clear, but that doesn’t prove I’m right. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide.
5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.

Much love!
While it is true that it is the Lord who judges us, the text does not say that we cannot know His judgement. Of course we must go by His words in our hearts. That is where we have our faith. But the Lord would not with-hold that information from us . For what reason? We need to know where we stand and particularly when it comes to whether we are still sinners or not. We also need to be able to discern others as to whether they are in the kingdom or not for teaching us.

How could the early fathers judge is a person is in Theosis by their words if not by their actions? And why would God allow men to judge others by not themselves?

It would not lead to pride. No man who has been through the crucifixion of the old man could retain any pride. He knows it is all of God.

Our view of the second coming is also important here.
 

marks

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Then first one is with Gal 5:25 where you seem to have missed the all important first word "IF". You might think it's a small word but in this case it's identifying specific people. It's saying "If God has elected you to salvation, it will be evidenced by the fact that you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Paul is exhorting those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit to walk in Him and not to resist His guidance.
It's a simple verse. Yes, it begins, IF. If you live in the Spirit. Do you? I think that all who are regenerated are alive in the Spirit, and therefore live in the Spirit. To those, not to others, but to those (IF), Paul instructs to also walk in the Spirit. This word can equally be understood to say, "Since we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit". It's a word showing there is a condition that is to be met.

The word here translated "walk" isn't the usual word for walking, its "stoichomen", which has more to do with the building blocks, the basic units. As I understand it this is saying, "if we live in the Spirit, let us also keep to the fundamentals of the Spirit". It's like ordering your heart and mind according to the ways of the Holy Spirit.

In the earlier passage, If we walk in the Spirit, we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh, the normal word for walk is used.
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
Please stay on topic.

Much love!
 

marks

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It's rather more complicated than this. From my studies, it seems that it is common for one to lose the 'blessing' a few times till one becomes established. The pillar remaining in the temple.

It seems that both Peter and Paul were established after their 'errors' as nothing further is recorded. I don't understand where I am at presently as two thoughts have arisen. One is that some deeper healing was required first.

When I walked in the Spirit previously, no trauma symptoms (of which I was still ignorant) as far as I can see were there. No anxiety or depression either. This would fit in with what therapist Adam Mussa claims about trauma. He does not follow everyone else in trauma healing and claims that it is in the spirit and is explained here:


I did do a 5 day course and one recent incident of trauma that I attempted to 'disintegrate' worked within the half an hour spent on it. I was amazed yet have many questions about his methods and charges for his service. It is on the lines of EMDR and he says the trauma is completely gone which I found after it had been an intruding thought for 10 months.

I am still in the midst of discovering how much cPTSD had affected my life and where this fits in with my spiritual experiences.

Then I wonder whether God has placed a removal of this globally for His end time plans. I just have not been able to work it all out as my mind is also shot from late stage Lyme Disease which wrecks your mind on its own. So I am awaiting guidance.

Normally there are things you can do, such as just believe that it is a fact and step into it as Gen. Booth (SA) wrote which helped me at one time. But always, whatever befalls us, trust in God is paramount.
Something I've come back to time and again, God tears, and God binds up. God wounds, and God heals.

I've experienced the same thing, while walking in the Spirit, it's like the trauma doesn't exist. It was in this that I realized the fruit of the Spirit is a complete package, that if one is walking in the Spirit, these things define our experience, not that we are increasing in love, that we love. Not that we are becoming more joyful, but that we rejoice.

I think I've mentioned before reading Daniel Amen's book "The Mind is Always Listening", this helped me a great deal with intruding thoughts. Though I still have to be aware and shut them down as needed. But now I can.

Of course I ask myself the question, what is served by NOT causing us to walk in the Spirit always? Why would God stop such a wonderful thing? I think the answer is that in our healing there are parts that need to be reached through our own choosing process, which if God circumvents doesn't happen the same.

Certainly He could in a moment correct anything that's wrong with me, I think it's a "better cure" to do it this way. Maybe explained as the difference between taking a pill and changing one's diet?

Whether the trauma damage is to the brain or is spiritual in nature, I'm not sure about that, functionally it all seems the same, as walking in the Spirit, or so it seems to me, let's me transcend the effects of the flesh. I see trauma damage as like a "hyper flesh".

EMDR has remained intriguing to me. I've researched therapists in my area, but I've not been moved to visit them, each seemed to have red flags.

"I am still in the midst of discovering how much cPTSD had affected my life and where this fits in with my spiritual experiences."

Absolutely me too!

Much love!
 

marks

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While it is true that it is the Lord who judges us, the text does not say that we cannot know His judgement. Of course we must go by His words in our hearts. That is where we have our faith. But the Lord would not with-hold that information from us . For what reason? We need to know where we stand and particularly when it comes to whether we are still sinners or not. We also need to be able to discern others as to whether they are in the kingdom or not for teaching us.
Just the same, the passage is clear, Paul doesn't know of any sin in himself, but he reserves judgement until Jesus comes.

If your thinking that "when Jesus comes" is when He comes to us personally in a visitation, I don't see that in the passage.
How could the early fathers judge is a person is in Theosis by their words if not by their actions? And why would God allow men to judge others by not themselves?
This is an excellent question, which becomes more answerable for me when we realize we're not talking about discerning whether someone is actually sinless.

The Bible gives us the criteria by which elders and overseers are to be appointed, men who have raised successful Christian families, who are well regarded by others, not given to wine, that don't hit others, able to teach, things like this. Outward signs of inward good character.

The apostle didn't say, appoint men in whom is no sin, he said, appoint men who are unblameable, above reproach. This suggests not the absolute absence of sin, but rather that there is no perceived sin, nothing you can point the finger at. Which is in harmony with Paul's words about Jesus being the only truly qualified judge.

We judge ourselves, we judge others, but knowing that we lack the insight that Jesus has, both into ourselves, and into others, and so here we are with so many questions, and wanting to take the Way from here to there.
It would not lead to pride. No man who has been through the crucifixion of the old man could retain any pride. He knows it is all of God.
I fully agree. I don't recall if I've mentioned, I'm also SPS, Stimulus Processing Sensitivity, (if you aren't familiar, start with Elaine Aron)

which is just to say I feel like I have a really good look into myself, and I feel like I understand of lot about how cPTSD works, and affects me. Not that this just hands over the victory, more that I can see deeper into the horror. So yes, I agree, there is no pride here, and verses like this one give life:

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

To know what His word says, to know what righteousness and holiness mean in His vocabulary, to look at myself . . . Those who make such claims for themself, but strut about in pride, do not show themselves as ones who have been with the Lord.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Resting in Christs' finished work yes, but you have missed out the cross as it is applied to us. It means our consent to the old man being killed, which results in a state of being without sin. Yet you say that this crucifixion took place without us, which is the only interpretation we can have if we can be saved yet still sin even though unintentionally. Or that it is a gradual death, which I do not find in scripture. Dead or alive.
I agree, it's not a gradual death, and we don't become "partly dead". I'll go back again though to how the Bible uses the word "dead/death", not that it means a full cessation of activity, but instead a separation. In physical death the soul is separated from the body. In spiritual death the spirit is separated from God. In death in Christ, being co-crucified, it's a separation of our soul from the body, except that we are at the same time raised up in Christ, and remain alive.

In Romans 6:6, "knowing that our old man was crucified with Him", "crucified" is the Passive Voice, it was done to us. Vs. 22, "and having been freed from sin", "freed" is likewise in the Passive Voice, it was done to us. If this were what we did, it would be Active Voice.

We see the same in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified together with Christ", again, this is Passive voice. God crucified us, we did not crucify ourselves.

Galatians 5:24 KJV
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. In this one place it's written in active voice. Are you aware of any parallel passage to this one? I know the ones that say put off the old man, are there any other?

Also why would Paul dare to tell men to imitate him if he had some unseen sin?
His conscience was clear, so he was doing what he ought. He didn't declare himself sinless, and explained how it is that we are not qualified to make such a declaration. There is nothing amiss in telling people to follow him in this.

Much love!
 

Christian Soldier

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It's a simple verse. Yes, it begins, IF. If you live in the Spirit. Do you? I think that all who are regenerated are alive in the Spirit, and therefore live in the Spirit. To those, not to others, but to those (IF), Paul instructs to also walk in the Spirit. This word can equally be understood to say, "Since we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit". It's a word showing there is a condition that is to be met.

The word here translated "walk" isn't the usual word for walking, its "stoichomen", which has more to do with the building blocks, the basic units. As I understand it this is saying, "if we live in the Spirit, let us also keep to the fundamentals of the Spirit". It's like ordering your heart and mind according to the ways of the Holy Spirit.

In the earlier passage, If we walk in the Spirit, we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh, the normal word for walk is used.

Please stay on topic.

Much love!
Walking in the Spirit requires continuous discipline and wrestling against ourselves, Satan and the world. So our war is against three enemies, that's why Paul is driving his point home. He knows how hard this battle is, we need the Holy Spirit to enable us to withstand the fiery darts of the Devil.

Our part in the battle is to pray always and bare a faithful testimony, by living a disciplined life of good works
 

Hepzibah

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Something I've come back to time and again, God tears, and God binds up. God wounds, and God heals.

I've experienced the same thing, while walking in the Spirit, it's like the trauma doesn't exist. It was in this that I realized the fruit of the Spirit is a complete package, that if one is walking in the Spirit, these things define our experience, not that we are increasing in love, that we love. Not that we are becoming more joyful, but that we rejoice.

Yes Amen.
I think I've mentioned before reading Daniel Amen's book "The Mind is Always Listening", this helped me a great deal with intruding thoughts. Though I still have to be aware and shut them down as needed. But now I can.
I had a look at Daniel Amen's work and it looks like it is based on CBT. I have rejected that therapy for myself as it is not effective in Narcissistic Family Scapegoat Abuse, in fact reforming the thoughts can be positively dangerous. It also sounds like managing whereas I am looking for people who have been cured for example by Adam Mussa, who claims that 46% of his clients are therapists which sounds good for the future.

When he does his work on flashbacks, instead of what is expected from other therapies whereby the memory remains but the emotions are gone, even the memory is gone, and that is what I have found from 30 mins on it. I try but cannot get it back in my mind.

This is the sort of thing I have found after being rather despondent hearing about people with 30 years of therapy behind them. I just know it can be cured.

Of course I ask myself the question, what is served by NOT causing us to walk in the Spirit always? Why would God stop such a wonderful thing? I think the answer is that in our healing there are parts that need to be reached through our own choosing process, which if God circumvents doesn't happen the same.

Certainly He could in a moment correct anything that's wrong with me, I think it's a "better cure" to do it this way. Maybe explained as the difference between taking a pill and changing one's diet?

Whether the trauma damage is to the brain or is spiritual in nature, I'm not sure about that, functionally it all seems the same, as walking in the Spirit, or so it seems to me, let's me transcend the effects of the flesh. I see trauma damage as like a "hyper flesh".

EMDR has remained intriguing to me. I've researched therapists in my area, but I've not been moved to visit them, each seemed to have red flags.

"I am still in the midst of discovering how much cPTSD had affected my life and where this fits in with my spiritual experiences."

Absolutely me too!

Much love!
 

Hepzibah

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1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

From the NLT:
3 As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. I don’t even trust my own judgment on this point. 4 My conscience is clear, but that doesn’t prove I’m right. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide.
5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.
marks, are you building a doctrine on one passage?

You are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: (1Thess 2:10)

It all boils down to how you are interpreting Romans 7.

Do you deny that Thesois meant sinlessness in the early church and that it was required of bishops?

The only way that I can think of in a person who does not have the Holy Spirit confirming within them that they have the pure heart and therefore no thought comes into their mind that is against the law of Christ, is that they had only reached the phase of illumination. But anyway, they would have had three different spiritual experiences and not two.

Still though, I am having problems grasping your understanding of Theosis. Paul was having problems with unintentional sin in Romans7 but you seem to be saying that one could have them and be in Theosis?
 
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marks

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marks, are you building a doctrine on one passage?
Interesting question.

To my thinking, I'm reading a passage, understanding what it says, believing it's message, and applying it to my life. Does that seem wrong somehow?

It all boils down to how you are interpreting Romans 7.
I don't think so. Without any thought towards Romans 7, 1 Corinthians 4 still says what it says. Romans 7 makes no statement that would change the meaning of what 1 Corinthians 4 teaches.

Much love!
 

Hepzibah

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Interesting question.

To my thinking, I'm reading a passage, understanding what it says, believing it's message, and applying it to my life. Does that seem wrong somehow?

Well yes. It goes against all I understand regarding good exegesis.
I don't think so. Without any thought towards Romans 7, 1 Corinthians 4 still says what it says. Romans 7 makes no statement that would change the meaning of what 1 Corinthians 4 teaches.

If we agree that Paul is giving his testimony about sanctification then I would say yes. He is struggling with unintentional sin then finds the answer yes?
Much love!
 

marks

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I had a look at Daniel Amen's work and it looks like it is based on CBT. I have rejected that therapy for myself as it is not effective in Narcissistic Family Scapegoat Abuse, in fact reforming the thoughts can be positively dangerous. It also sounds like managing whereas I am looking for people who have been cured for example by Adam Mussa, who claims that 46% of his clients are therapists which sounds good for the future.
For me, it was learning the source and mechanism of intrusive mind race, which enabled me to take action to shut it down. It's not so much for me reforming my thoughts, rather just stopping the ones I don't want. It was a form of repetition compulsion, evil and abusive narratives running movies through my mind of evil and horrible things. This gave me a tool to "put off" this part of the old man.

Interestingly, I was telling my wife one day of the frustration and difficulty I was having in this area. A few days later she heard this book described on the radio as addressing this exact thing. She then bought it for me, and it was right on target for me.

Plainly, God knows what each of us need, and is working with us accordingly.
When he does his work on flashbacks, instead of what is expected from other therapies whereby the memory remains but the emotions are gone, even the memory is gone, and that is what I have found from 30 mins on it. I try but cannot get it back in my mind.
I don't know about that, selective amnesia? I've spent so many years missing memories, unable to understand memories I had, unable to contextualize a great deal of my life. A few years ago I regained my emotional memory, which enabled me to put these memories in sequence, and with context, and I understood so much better. It's the emotionalism that trips me up, knowing what happened to me isn't so much the problem, at least, not so much anymore. Understanding why, and that even this was an expression of God's love for me, as He was unwilling to just not have me with Him.

Much love!
 

marks

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Well yes. It goes against all I understand regarding good exegesis.
How so? Do you think I'm misrepresenting what that passage says? Does this not harmonize with all those places where God tells us His knowledge, wisdom, are infinitely higher than ours?

Exegesis . . . to bring out of the passage what it there. This is exactly what I've done.

I find this unambiguous.

Much love!
 

Hepzibah

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How so? Do you think I'm misrepresenting what that passage says? Does this not harmonize with all those places where God tells us His knowledge, wisdom, are infinitely higher than ours?

Exegesis . . . to bring out of the passage what it there. This is exactly what I've done.

I find this unambiguous.

Much love!
I was taught that an important doctrine like sanctification must not be based on one text or passage and more-so if it is contradicted elsewhere as in that text from 1Thess. where Paul is showing them that they had witnessed the holiness of himself
How so? Do you think I'm misrepresenting what that passage says? Does this not harmonize with all those places where God tells us His knowledge, wisdom, are infinitely higher than ours?

Exegesis . . . to bring out of the passage what it there. This is exactly what I've done.

I find this unambiguous.

Much love!

and the others with him, and even more-so when Peter tells us that Paul is easily misunderstood. That text speaks to me that Paul did indeed know whether he was sinless or not.
 

marks

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I was taught that an important doctrine like sanctification must not be based on one text or passage and more-so if it is contradicted elsewhere as in that text from 1Thess. where Paul is showing them that they had witnessed the holiness of himself
If there seems to be a contradiction, that needs to be understood. If you think the 1 Corinthians 4 passage says something different then what I'm saying, that needs to be looked at. But what we must not do is to say, "Based on how I understand this passage, I think that passage must not mean what it is saying."

This is the way to begin a great Bible study. We first determine the meaning or possible meanings of a couple of passages, and then find how they are in harmony, without changing either's message.

I have no issues with the things Paul has said that you are pointing out, like, You know how holy I behaved with you, things like that. And I likewise think that if you asked Paul point blank, does this mean you never ever sin? He'd have answered consistent with 1 Corinthians 4, "that's for Jesus to say".

I know you aren't saying that if God only said something once that it's not true. And there is no contradiction of Scripture, only the gaps in our own understanding.

I'm just not willing to overlook plainly stated Scripture. Even if something is only said once. Other teachings are given once.

1 Corinthians 4:5 KJV
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV
3) For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4) But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

1 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

1 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Jesus is the true judge. God tries the hearts. God is witness. Witness here is martus, not just someone who sees something, but one who testifies. Our word martyr refers to the ultimate and final testimony of faith.

Ye are witnesses, and God also, you have testified, and God has testified. The people testify of his conduct, God testifies to his heart, his motives.

If God tells me I'm not sinning, I'll believe Him, but I'm not just going to go with my own opinions of my perceptions of myself. I think that was Paul's objection also.

Much love!
 

Hepzibah

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@marks I will get back to this tomorrow, but for now I would just like to add that I agree that it is by witness of the Holy Spirit that we can testify to our spiritual position. It is not for man to say what it is, which is unfortunately the problem with a lot of churchgoers.

I am not arguing about that. But you seem to be saying that moment by moment we cannot say whether we are in a sinless state or Theosis so I assume you are not agreeing what Theosis is.

Surely we can know if God has given us a pure heart.

1 John: 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

This verse says that we know if we are in Him by walking as He walked ie sinless.
 

marks

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@marks I will get back to this tomorrow, but for now I would just like to add that I agree that it is by witness of the Holy Spirit that we can testify to our spiritual position. It is not for man to say what it is, which is unfortunately the problem with a lot of churchgoers.
Agree.
I am not arguing about that. But you seem to be saying that moment by moment we cannot say whether we are in a sinless state or Theosis so I assume you are not agreeing what Theosis is.

Surely we can know if God has given us a pure heart.

1 John: 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

This verse says that we know if we are in Him by walking as He walked ie sinless.
I simply stop short of making an absolute claim. That I'm not aware of sin committed means one of two things, either I've not committed sin, or I'm unaware of sin committed.

I don't want to get too hung up on this point.

I think what best describes my POV right now is that we by faith can walk in the Spirit, which is indistinguishable from Theosis except that walking in the Spirit is something we do by faith, and Theosis is something God does for us by His Own working. I'd liken Theosis to a gift of faith that allows a 24/7 walk in the Spirit, that God may give to one to enable them to lead a congregation, or to another to give encouragment that the good life is possible (like me), or for whatever reason He has. Theosis is a gift given to some, while walking in the Spirit is for all of us to do.

I've continued to ask myself, why would Theosis not continue life-long? And I think the answer must be, Because that does not serve God's purpose. And that leads to . . . how does it serve God's purpose to give a temporary Theosis? I don't see any difference between when it came, and when it went, both seemed fully determined by God and not me.

Much love!
 
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