Christian Liberty Forced me to Leave Dispensationalism

[PinSeeker]

And you are using terms as you understand them- so you are using circular reasoning.

Okay, fair enough, so let's talk about some of the terms, which you brought up, so, you first. <smile>

And no I do not define the terms.

But you understand them in a certain way, which may or may not be correct.

I accept the definitions as they were used by the original writers.

Ah, well, I would say the exact same thing, but you and I disagree, so either one or both of us is wrong; we cannot both be right. Right?

But you have accussed me...

...of nothing. Quit accusing me of accusing you of anything.

of taking verses out of context and now redefining terms as I define them

Disagreeing with you on something, Ronald, is a very different thing than accusing you of said something.

- Where is your proof?

Well as I was not given that memo- I reject it.

<smile> Well now that might be a bit of ignorance on your part; on message boards, texting, and the like, Ronald, using all caps is very commonly regarded as and called "shouting." Goodness gracious. We can just chalk this up to a misunderstanding if you want.

I use the method of all caps when I am stressing something not shouting.

Well, you can do what you want, but I would suggest using italics or bolding or underlining. Even different colors... I mean, techology is great; we have all kinds of options... <smile>

So you need to accept that.

Well, with all due respect, Ronald, I will accept your obstinance. <smile>

And... again, with all due respect, Ronald, there are very few people... and you're not one of them... to whom ~ and even fewer circumstances in which ~ I'm going to listen to when anyone tells me I "need" to do something. I'll certainly ignore that, every time.

So yes you are mistaken.

In your opinion. Fair enough.

Not really You have a dearth of scriptural references...

Ridiculous; I've quoted many passages. You disagree, I guess, with the references themselves, but that's merely your prerogative. Look back through the thread, Ronald. The record ~ my record ~ is very clear; to say I "have a dearth of Scriptural references" is clearly and emphatically refuted by the written record.

and a 0 batting average when you say I redefine and take verses out of context.

In your opinion. Fair enough.

...you say He is the ruler of heaven right now.

No, that's not quite what I said, Ronald. I said He is ruling from heaven right now. And the fact that He is ruling is synonymous/interchangeable with the idea/fact that He is seated... meaning that His work is completed/finished, which is what He declared on the cross at His death ~ "It is finished!" ... at the right hand of the Father, which means with the Father in the power of God.

Now, what is He the Ruler of? That's a different question, and to that, I would ask you, does not God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) rule over creation? And He rules in a sovereign, distinguishing way over His Israel even now. God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

So to you Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and Has moved the Father off His throne and sitting there...

Again, what do you think it means, Ronald, that Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand? Are you unable to answer the question? If so, see directly above. <smile>

...so where is the Father?

LOL! Is the Father not present everywhere? <smile>

For Satan to be abyssed meant He was cast into the bottomless pit not just abyssed "in a sense".

Where is this bottomless pit, Ronald? Siberia? Antarctica? Some other planet? In some other galaxy? Is there really literally such a thing as a bottomless pit? And just how long will this "great chain" chain be? <smile>

Now you sound like a Jehovah's witness.

Perish the thought.

So you believe we are now in the millennial earth as massively described in the OT?

Yes. Jesus's millennial reign ~ the time through which He is ruling from heaven and God's Israel is being brought to completion ~ is now... from His time on earth two millennia ago until the time He returns. Then, after the judgment, His eternal (meaning throughout the age to come, eternity) reign, which will be here in person ~ our present faith will then be sight ~ will begin, and of course never end.

For us living in the millennial reign and satan abyssed "in a sense" mankind is surely devoted to much evil

Sin is still very much a reality in this world... But God ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ is, as Scripture affirms over and over and over again, surely overcoming all that, and in the end will put an end to it once and for all.

Well when one opens their mind- all sorts of evil floods in!

Hmmm, well it can, possibly, but the Spirit can certainly keep that from happening... and will, for God's elect...

Sorry but I did not get the allegorical dictionary...

Ah, so you created your own... <smile> Yet again, Ronald, symbolism and allegorism are two different things. Yes, symbols can indeed be used in allegories, but the use of symbolism does not necessarily confine the application of a full narrative to or classify it as allegory at all, and such is the case with Revelation 20... and Revelation as a whole.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It does not. Or, at least far, far less than it should. <smile>

According to allegorists who think the bible itself is filled full of symbols.

The danger with that has been apparent. Thousands of cults and cult wannabes have reinterpreted teh written word, defined it as symbolic and gave it a meaning to suit their agenda.

Nobody's saying what you think "doesn't make sense," really, Ronald. But regarding just about anything, it is very possible for something to make sense and but still be... very wrong.

Not if it is God's word. God doesn't say one thing and mean another because what is written is wrong! Like I have repeated oft, th ebible defines its own symbols so we do not have to rely on "special revelations", either we get or some other gets, fuzzy feelings, haris standing up on the back of our necks or just plain guessing.

Not true at all. For the most part, other passages actually in the Bible are very informative; thus, we say things like, "God is His own arbiter" and "Scripture interprets Scripture." At any rate, anyone labeling anything "extra biblical" does not make it the case.

Buit for you in many of these eschatological discussions, it is.

Ronald, in Revelation ~ and other parts of the Bible as well, like Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Matthew, and James (the tongue is flesh, not an actual flame/fire) ~ symbols are used to represent things and sometimes to describe the effect of things that are very literal. Even you have to acknowledge this, even starting with something as basic as the fact that Satan is not really a dragon or a beast. So what you're railing against you actually do, too, which, as I said, is... well, you know. <smile>

I have always agreed with that. But as I have said when something is used as a euphemism it is clear. Either the language tells us that it is symbolic or non-literal or by simply following the "Golden Rule of biblical Interpretation: one knows when something is used euphemistically.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, fair enough, so let's talk about some of the terms, which you brought up, so, you first. <smile>

which ones? We have been doing a lot of discussing here.

But you understand them in a certain way, which may or may not be correct.

Well I accept them as they are defined either in the days of Jesus or in the days of the apostles. You need to show why they are not correct.
Concordances, Lexicons, biblical History books and language guides are my sources to understand what was written. What are yours?

...of nothing. Quit accusing me of accusing you of anything.

sorry but you have. If iget the time I will go back to your prior posts and cite them for you. I don't make this up or overreact.

And... again, with all due respect, Ronald, there are very few people... and you're not one of them... to whom ~ and even fewer circumstances in which ~ I'm going to listen to when anyone tells me I "need" to do something. I'll certainly ignore that, every time.

YOu must ;live a very shaky life then. We are told we need things or to do things all the time as people. I guess that makes you very very independent. But you don't have to accept why I cap things. You can then let your imagination run wild.

No, that's not quite what I said, Ronald. I said He is ruling from heaven right now. And the fact that He is ruling is synonymous/interchangeable with the idea/fact that He is seated... meaning that His work is completed/finished, which is what He declared on the cross at His death ~ "It is finished!" ... at the right hand of the Father, which means with the Father in the power of God.

So specifically what is He ruling then?

Again, what do you think it means, Ronald, that Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand? Are you unable to answer the question? If so, see directly above.

Well in the day, to be seated at teh right hand of a sovereign meant you were favored and considered an equal.

LOL! Is the Father not present everywhere?

Welll He is not own His throne according to you. The Spirit is everywhere present. But teh Father is seated in heaven as Scripture declares over and over and over again.

Where is this bottomless pit, Ronald? Siberia? Antarctica? Some other planet? In some other galaxy? Is there really literally such a thing as a bottomless pit? And just how long will this "great chain" chain be? <smile>

Couldn't tell you. but God knows and Satan knows and the legion who were cast out of the demoniac know for they begged Jesus not to be sent there.

Perish the thought.

Well I have evangelized JW's for decades and at one time had a bigger library of their own materials than many kingdom of darkness halls did. So I know in many ways you sound like them.

Hmmm, well it can, possibly, but the Spirit can certainly keep that from happening... and will, for God's elect...

And I am glad I am one of the elect.

Yes. Jesus's millennial reign ~ the time through which He is ruling from heaven and God's Israel is being brought to completion ~ is now... from His time on earth two millennia ago until the time He returns. Then, after the judgment, His eternal (meaning throughout the age to come, eternity) reign, which will be here in person ~ our present faith will then be sight ~ will begin, and of course never end.

Well besides mixing up f the 1000 year reign which you do not believe is a 1000 year reign with the end of His earthly reign before eternity you have combined 2 things wrongly.

Ah, so you created your own... <smile> Yet again, Ronald, symbolism and allegorism are two different things. Yes, symbols can indeed be used in allegories, but the use of symbolism does not necessarily confine the application of a full narrative to or classify it as allegory at all, and such is the case with Revelation 20... and Revelation as a whole.

Revelation is both literal and symbolic and carries no allegory. And as is known, the Bible defines its own symbols.

This afternoon I am going to start a thread in the end times section on what the Bible says the 1000 year reign will look like and what will take place and th erole of the church, saved trib gentiles and saved trib Jews. We can end this here an dpick it up in that thread if you wish.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Take a selfie.


Lots of differences between Matthew 24:29-30 and Rev 6:12-17? No, not really.


I never said those passages are about the same thing, so I'm not sure why you're saying this to me.


Is that supposed to mean anything to me? It doesn't. if you don't teach the truth, what good is that? The amount of time you have studied does not determine your level of understanding of the truth.


I'd love to know what made you think I was saying that Revelation 20:7-9 is the same thing as Ezekiel 38-39 when I never said that.


This is just ridiculous. It's not all literal, so acting as if it's all spelled out for us is ludicrous. It's not. Some is symbolic, some poetic, some metaphorical, some Apocalyptic, some hyperbolic and so on. So, to say we have to go by what is written as it is written is another way of saying we have to assume it's all literal unless it treats us like little children and explicitly tells us otherwise. That's a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture.


We don't all agree on what makes perfect sense, though. You might think something makes perfect sense if taken literally, and I may not. And vice versa. I take many scriptures literally that you don't take literally or don't take as literally as I do. My doctrine is based primarily on clear, straightforward, literal scriptures, as I have shown you before. The hermeneutic you use is useless as far as I'm concerned and you don't even use it consistently, anyway. We need discernment from the Holy Spirit to understand more difficult passages nd that's a fact whether you acknowledge it or not (1 Cor 2:9-16).


That's your opinion only which means nothing to me.

I am going to start a thread in the end times section on what the millennial kingdom here on earth looks like.

But once again the sixth seal and Matthew 24:29-30 are vastly different. After the sixth seal comes the seventh seal which brins to earth the 7 trumpet judgmentsd and then the seventh trumpet introduces the 7 bowls. It is after all 21 of these does the Lord return

You either have to accept Jesus returnsa in teh midst of massive judgments or try to twist this as the sixth seal comes after teh seventh seal, the trumpets and bowls. I would like to see your defense of that.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: anyone labeling anything "extra biblical" does not make it the case Ronald: But for you in many of these eschatological discussions, it is.

In... your... "humble" opinion. <smile>

which ones? We have been doing a lot of discussing here.

You're the one who originally brought up defining certain things, and said you had them all correct ~ without actually defining anything ~ Ronald. Look back through the record and bring some things up if you want.

Well I accept them as they are defined either in the days of Jesus or in the days of the apostles.

Again: In... your... "humble" opinion... <smile>

You need to show why they are not correct.

And I say this is on you, Ronald. Using your own words in reference to you ~ or, actually, using the words you should have used ~ in this conversation, it is incumbent on you (rather than "you need to," because as far as I am concerned, you don't actually need to do anything) to show why you think your understanding is correct. And then we can have a conversation on these things. I mean, all you've said to this point is "plain text," basically, which, as I've said, is really the problem; yours... dispensationalists, generally... is a far, far too plain ~ simplistic, wooden ~ reading and understanding of the text. And I've explained why. You can't read Revelation like a Dick and Jane first grade primer, or even a sixth-grade history book (which dispensationalists insist on doing), because that's not the genre of literature in which John's Revelation is written.

Concordances, Lexicons, biblical History books and language guides are my sources to understand what was written.

LOL! Well, the great thing about the internet is, you can find anything on it. But the terrible thing about the internet is, you can... find anything on it. <smile> I hear strains (not for the first time here) of the great Simon and Garfunkel: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968) echoing over and over again... <smile>

sorry but you have.

Nope. <smile>

If iget the time I will go back to your prior posts and cite them for you.

You can waste your time if you want, certainly... <smile>

I don't make this up or overreact.

LOL! "Denial is not just a river in Egypt" (Stuart Smalley)... <smile>

You can then let your imagination run wild.

And you yours, I guess... <smile>

So specifically what is He ruling then?

Oh, my. Well, again, Ronald, assuming you're a Christian as I am, is Jesus your King?

Well in the day, to be seated at the right hand of a sovereign meant you were favored and considered an equal.

Hmmm... well that's scraping the surface, I guess... <smile>

Well He is not own His throne according to you.

That seems to be your opinion, Ronald, not mine.

The Spirit is everywhere present. But the Father is seated in heaven as Scripture declares over and over and over again.

Sure, but are not the Father and the Spirit one with each other, and in each other, just as the Father and Jesus are (John 10:30, 17:21? God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4), you know...

PinSeeker: Where is this bottomless pit, Ronald? Siberia? Antarctica? Some other planet? In some other galaxy? Is there really literally such a thing as a bottomless pit? And just how long will this "great chain" chain be?​

Couldn't tell you.

Ah, okay, but there is literally a bottomless pit, and it is... somewhere. As well as a great chain...

Well I have evangelized JW's for decades and at one time had a bigger library of their own materials than many kingdom of darkness halls did. So I know in many ways you sound like them.

Hm. Well, not everything JWs say is bad... <smile> I'm a little curious, though, what you think some of these "ways" are...

...the legion who were cast out of the demoniac know for they begged Jesus not to be sent there.

Hmmm... Mark 5 and Luke 8:31, presumably... Well, Paul uses the same word ('abyssos') in Romans 10:7, specifically, where he writes:

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?"’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or "Who will descend into the abyss?”' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." (Romans 10:5-7)​

​

NOTE: Well would you look at that... PinSeeker quoting Scripture... I thought he never did that... <smile>​

So I would submit to you that this "abyss" is... hell, which is described in many ways in the New Testament, and many are difficult to reconcile with each other, like "burning fire" on the one hand and "a place of outer darkness" on the other hand. That’s difficult to reconcile, because usually where there’s fire, there’s light; how can there be a fire in total darkness? So there is a collision of images there, right? So, in view of that, I submit that this "abyss," this "bottomless pit," this "pit" that is "shut and sealed over" Satan, is figurative but given so that we understand that it is a condition, a situation, which God has put him in, from which there is no hope of escape but for the authority of God Himself.

And I am glad I am one of the elect.

Me, too... <smile>

Well besides mixing up...

LOL! Okay, well, we think pretty much the same of each other. <smile>

Revelation is both literal and symbolic and carries no allegory.

Agreed. <smile>

And as is known, the Bible defines its own symbols.

God is His own arbiter; Scripture interprets Scripture. As I said. Yes, agreed. <smile>

This afternoon I am going to start a thread in the end times section on what the Bible says the 1000 year reign will look like and what will take place and therole of the church, saved trib gentiles and saved trib Jews. We can end this here and pick it up in that thread if you wish.

Ah, well that's never been done on this board before, I'm sure... <smile>

If you don't have anything else to offer other than meaningless opinions ~ without offering anything to back up said opinions ~ Ronald, we're done here. Yes? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am going to start a thread in the end times section on what the millennial kingdom here on earth looks like.

But once again the sixth seal and Matthew 24:29-30 are vastly different. After the sixth seal comes the seventh seal which brins to earth the 7 trumpet judgmentsd and then the seventh trumpet introduces the 7 bowls. It is after all 21 of these does the Lord return

You either have to accept Jesus returnsa in teh midst of massive judgments or try to twist this as the sixth seal comes after teh seventh seal, the trumpets and bowls. I would like to see your defense of that.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here right now because I've been responding to many posts already today, but I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are all parallel to each other rather than it being a case of the seven seals followed by the seven trumpets followed by the seven bowls.

Just look at the description of what happens at the seventh trumpet, for example. The mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7). The kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son. The time of the dead being judged has come at that point (Rev 11:18)? When are the dead judged? Read Revelation 20:11-15. After the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, how can you reconcile that with your view that it all happens before the thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And I say this is on you, Ronald. Using your own words in reference to you ~ or, actually, using the words you should have used ~ in this conversation, it is incumbent on you (rather than "you need to," because as far as I am concerned, you don't actually need to do anything) to show why you think your understanding is correct. And then we can have a conversation on these things. I mean, all you've said to this point is "plain text," basically, which, as I've said, is really the problem; yours... dispensationalists, generally... is a far, far too plain ~ simplistic, wooden ~ reading and understanding of the text. And I've explained why. You can't read Revelation like a Dick and Jane first grade primer, or even a sixth-grade history book (which dispensationalists insist on doing), because that's not the genre of literature in which John's Revelation is written.

Absolutely agree. This sums up the difference between the interpretive approach of amils like us and dispensationalists like him. The foundation of their doctrine is on a literal interpretation of some of the most difficult passages to interpret in all of scripture contained within highly symbolic books. In contrast to that, amillennialists base our belief on literal, straightforward scriptures like Matthew 28:16-18, John 5:28-29, 2 Peter 3:10-12, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and others.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And I say this is on you, Ronald. Using your own words in reference to you ~ or, actually, using the words you should have used ~ in this conversation, it is incumbent on you (rather than "you need to," because as far as I am concerned, you don't actually need to do anything) to show why you think your understanding is correct. And then we can have a conversation on these things. I mean, all you've said to this point is "plain text," basically, which, as I've said, is really the problem; yours... dispensationalists, generally... is a far, far too plain ~ simplistic, wooden ~ reading and understanding of the text. And I've explained why. You can't read Revelation like a Dick and Jane first grade primer, or even a sixth-grade history book (which dispensationalists insist on doing), because that's not the genre of literature in which John's Revelation is written.

I poste4d what I believe Scripture says, you disagreed. You need to show why you disagree. I already showed what I did, ball is in your court. But let us carry this conversation in the end time forum. I started a thread there called "What will teh 1000 year millennial kingdom look like".

Sorry a simplistic normal reading of the book the bible is something you consider a problem. It is how the world communicates in written form.

But look over my points on the new thread and we can discuss there.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here right now because I've been responding to many posts already today, but I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are all parallel to each other rather than it being a case of the seven seals followed by the seven trumpets followed by the seven bowls.

Just look at the description of what happens at the seventh trumpet, for example. The mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7). The kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son. The time of the dead being judged has come at that point (Rev 11:18)? When are the dead judged? Read Revelation 20:11-15. After the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, how can you reconcile that with your view that it all happens before the thousand years?

Well you can believe that and yes there are some similar characteristics, but also there are enormous differences that show they do not run concurrently but consecutively. I would love to see you rationale for believing that. After over 35 years of studying and teaching Eschatology, I am convinced the first 6 seals are pre-tribulational and the 7 trumpets are the first 31/2 years and the bowls are the final 3 1;2 years.

I do not hold that Satans last rebellion happens before the 1000 year kingdom, but after.

YOu can keep discussing this in the thread I started called "What will the 1000 kingdom...." in the end times section.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you can believe that and yes there are some similar characteristics, but also there are enormous differences that show they do not run concurrently but consecutively. I would love to see you rationale for believing that.

Did you not even read what I said in my post? I gave you a bit of my rationale for believing that there and you didn't even address what I said. So, I'll say it again.

Just look at the description of what happens at the seventh trumpet, for example. The mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7). The kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son. The time of the dead being judged has come at that point (Rev 11:18)? When are the dead judged? Read Revelation 20:11-15. After the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, how can you reconcile that with your view that it all happens before the thousand years?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you not even read what I said in my post? I gave you a bit of my rationale for believing that there and you didn't even address what I said. So, I'll say it again.

Just look at the description of what happens at the seventh trumpet, for example. The mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7). The kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son. The time of the dead being judged has come at that point (Rev 11:18)? When are the dead judged? Read Revelation 20:11-15. After the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, how can you reconcile that with your view that it all happens before the thousand years?

You require the mystery to be His return and that is not a mystery. Rev. 15 shows the 7 angels with the seven bowls and Scripture says in these bowls are finished the wrath of god

The lost dead are judges in Rev. 20 and any left on earth after teh millennial kingdom (see my thread as I posted to you earlier) The first resurrection occurs before the 1000 years and that is the OT saints bodies and the trib saints bodies . They are called blessed. Believers have had sin already judged at Calvary and we are no longer being judged for sin, but our works if they are of God or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You require the mystery to be His return and that is not a mystery.

I did not say that His return itself is a mystery. I said the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet, as it says in Revelation 10:7. What do you think that means? Is there a mystery relating to a last trumpet mentioned in scripture? Like, say, in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Could it be related to that mystery? I believe so. What say you? It seems that in your view nothing is finished at the seventh trumpet.

Rev. 15 shows the 7 angels with the seven bowls and Scripture says in these bowls are finished the wrath of god

The lost dead are judges in Rev. 20 and any left on earth after teh millennial kingdom (see my thread as I posted to you earlier) The first resurrection occurs before the 1000 years and that is the OT saints bodies and the trib saints bodies . They are called blessed. Believers have had sin already judged at Calvary and we are no longer being judged for sin, but our works if they are of God or not.

The time that the dead are judged is shown in Revelation 20:11-15 and that occurs after the thousand years. And it very specifically indicates that at the seventh trumpet it will be the time for the dead to be judged. You obviously would rather just ignore that than accept it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I did not say that His return itself is a mystery. I said the mystery of God is finished at the seventh trumpet, as it says in Revelation 10:7. What do you think that means? Is there a mystery relating to a last trumpet mentioned in scripture? Like, say, in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Could it be related to that mystery? I believe so. What say you? It seems that in your view nothing is finished at the seventh trumpet.

Well something is finished, but I will not play plug a verse in and hope I am right. I know the seven bowls follow the seven trumpets, so judgment isn't finished.

The time that the dead are judged is shown in Revelation 20:11-15 and that occurs after the thousand years. And it very specifically indicates that at the seventh trumpet it will be the time for the dead to be judged. You obviously would rather just ignore that than accept it.

YOu forget the bema judgment after the rapture , and all those resurrected before the 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well something is finished, but I will not play plug a verse in and hope I am right. I know the seven bowls follow the seven trumpets, so judgment isn't finished.

What is finished at that point in your view? It's called "the mystery of God" that is finished at that point, so that seems pretty significant. Yet, it doesn't seem that it has any significance in your view.

YOu forget the bema judgment after the rapture , and all those resurrected before the 1000 years.

There is only one judgment. That's why when you look at Jesus's teachings He often referred to "the day of judgment". There's only one. Paul taught that all people, saved and lost, will appear for the bema judgment (Romans 14:10-12). That is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well and that occurs when Jesus comes again. Is there any difference between unbelievers being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) and those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)? No. they describe the same event.

You just want to ignore the fact that Revelation 11:15-18 indicates that the sounding of the seventh trumpet signals the time of the dead being judged. You know it described the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15. Why else would you ignore the connection between those passages except for doctrinal bias?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is finished at that point in your view? It's called "the mystery of God" that is finished at that point, so that seems pretty significant. Yet, it doesn't seem that it has any significance in your view.

YOu seem to relish making your implied insults. well it is important, but as the bible does not mention what this particular mystery is , all your implied insults and digs are irrelevant

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is only one judgment. That's why when you look at Jesus's teachings He often referred to "the day of judgment". There's only one. Paul taught that all people, saved and lost, will appear for the bema judgment (Romans 14:10-12). That is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 as well and that occurs when Jesus comes again. Is there any difference between unbelievers being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) and those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)? No. they describe the same event.

Wrong again. there is the bema seast judgment for believers only. that is where our works are tried and either are rewarded or burned as described in corinthians.

There is the judgment after Jesus returns where He divides the nations into sheep and goats before the Millennial kingdom commences.

Then there is the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years and right before eternity commences. this is for those who were not part of the first resurrection and are resurrected then. It is also for all those who survived the final Satanic rebellion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

YOu seem to relish making your implied insults. well it is important, but as the bible does not mention what this particular mystery is , all your implied insults and digs are irrelevant

I'm not trying to be insulting. I didn't make any declarations of fact. I said how it seems to me. You should not be insulted by me giving my impression of how your comments come across to me. I'm trying to illustrate how you seem to not see any significance in the mystery of God being finished at the seventh trumpet. If you read Revelation 11:15-18 there is a sense of finality occurring at the seventh trumpet. The time for those who destroy the earth to be destroyed has come. The time for God's wrath has come. The time for the dead to be judged has come. I don't know how anyone can read that and think that time will still go on after that. The time of the dead being judged is shown as being after the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15). Do you take that into account? No, because that would force you to acknowledge that your understanding of Revelation 20 is wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong again. there is the bema seast judgment for believers only. that is where our works are tried and either are rewarded or burned as described in corinthians.

There is the judgment after Jesus returns where He divides the nations into sheep and goats before the Millennial kingdom commences.

Then there is the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years and right before eternity commences. this is for those who were not part of the first resurrection and are resurrected then. It is also for all those who survived the final Satanic rebellion.

You just are not nearly diligent enough in your study of scripture. The bema seat judgment is most certainly NOT for believers only, which you can discover if you would just take a closer look at scripture instead of only skimming the surface all the time.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Now, they key to understanding who exactly will be at the bema seat judgment is to determine who will be bowing their knees before Christ at that time? Only believers? No. Paul referenced this passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice here how even all those "that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." at that time which proves that unbelievers will bow their knees to Him at the bema seat judgment as well.

Also, if you read Matthew 25:31-46 you can see that both saved and lost people will give an account of themselves before Christ at the same time there as well. There is only one judgment day which is why Jesus always referred to "judgment day" or "the day of judgment" and mot to multiple judgment days.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You just are not nearly diligent enough in your study of scripture. The bema seat judgment is most certainly NOT for believers only, which you can discover if you would just take a closer look at scripture instead of only skimming the surface all the time.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Now, they key to understanding who exactly will be at the bema seat judgment is to determine who will be bowing their knees before Christ at that time? Only believers? No. Paul referenced this passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice here how even all those "that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." at that time which proves that unbelievers will bow their knees to Him at the bema seat judgment as well.

Also, if you read Matthew 25:31-46 you can see that both saved and lost people will give an account of themselves before Christ at the same time there as well. There is only one judgment day which is why Jesus always referred to "judgment day" or "the day of judgment" and mot to multiple judgment days.

Well as you have decided that your best line of discussion is to throw out insults and baseless claims- Have the last word. You are not worthy of wasting time with any more.

But you fail to follow even the most primary level of grammar and reading skills.

1 Cor. 3 and Rom. 14 are both addressing believers as for the bema seat of Jesus. If you had bothered to read the chapter and keep the verse in context you would see Paul is speaking to believers specifically, then quoting the OT to remind believers all of us will be judged and stand before the Lord. sorry but you fail.

And for the Corinthians passage?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version

​

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If you are claiming this is a judgment for everybody- then you believe in universalism, for verse 15 says they will be saved if their works are burned!

Either apologize for falsely accusing a brother or have the last word.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well as you have decided that your best line of discussion is to throw out insults and baseless claims- Have the last word. You are not worthy of wasting time with any more.

You're just using this as an excuse to get out of addressing my points.

But you fail to follow even the most primary level of grammar and reading skills.

And you talk about my insults? You are a hypocrite.

1 Cor. 3 and Rom. 14 are both addressing believers as for the bema seat of Jesus. If you had bothered to read the chapter and keep the verse in context you would see Paul is speaking to believers specifically, then quoting the OT to remind believers all of us will be judged and stand before the Lord. sorry but you fail.

You say this without even addressing the OT passage that Paul referenced which shows that both believers and unbelievers will be bowing the knee before the Lord. Why should I take you seriously when you ignore that? Also, Matthew 25:31-46 makes it abundantly clear that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. You are denying clear scripture.

And for the Corinthians passage?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

​

King James Version​

​

​

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If you are claiming this is a judgment for everybody- then you believe in universalism, for verse 15 says they will be saved if their works are burned!

Either apologize for falsely accusing a brother or have the last word.

I have nothing to apologize for. You want me to apologize for merely disagreeing with your false doctrine. I won't.