The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Job sacrificed for his sons but not himself, as he knew that sacrifice was only required for those without faith in God alone for their salvation and not dependent on works.
Well apart from asking for salvation.
I rest in the fruitfulness of my love for my Saviour.
Indeed and all of these things must be overcome by the Holy Spirit's guidance alone.
That is not reborn in my Bible. Born again of the Spirit which means flesh has been crucified. That means death to me. A period of trials to get to that point, then death. I no longer believe in original sin (and neither did the early church) but that is another thread. We do all fall however.
I don't say you are cherry picking. But it is the bigger picture of the Bible that divides us.
I see the whole of scripture has one theme. It is right from Genesis which lays out mans problem - sin - and the answer for that, and of which I find evangelicalism since leaving it, is sorely inadequate. It says that God's answer to mans problem, is that someone else pays the price, yet we are to go on sinning. That man spends the rest of his life in a battle trying to get into a place of perfection, which contradicts the many places that say we have peace and joy and live in victory over sin, having heard Paul say that he can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens him. I guess he is also meaning sin.
@marks -It's interesting to me, you've said here that you interpret the Bible according to the understanding you've received. Personally I feel your understandings are in direct conflict with certain Scriptures. Just the same, I'm interested in discussing and testing.
Well let's say the way you interpret them.
I have none actually. I trust what he Holy Spirit has taught me and nothing else since I found out that I was seriously wrong in my understanding (Protestant).
A deeper understanding that saved me from losing my faith during Calvinism, and a walk that is nothing in comparison due to the fulfillment of promises and the strength to live out my life which was seriously damaged physically environmentally and emotionally and mentally through abuse, both things that would have driven me to some sort of addiction and self destruction.
Therapists are amazed that I have survived through all I have been through.
It came up.
It's not a conversation YET.
You're stricter than some moderators are.
And this thread does not BELONG to you....
it belongs to the forum.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)
On second thoughts, I think that saying transcends flesh can be misleading as it leaves an option for it to remain alive, whereas Paul says death to it.
I think that it goes a long way but is not sustainable. It is subduing the flesh I feel. And perhaps requires one not to not look too deeply into it. This state can only maintained with ones will power whereas walking in the Spirit is living out what is within.
The real thing comes along with the seals of scripture being opened up to ones spiritual understanding.
Would you like to tell me more about that experience you had? What led up to it and describing the start of it.
Yes we have all had that mountain top experience.
Sorry I have forgotten the text you used for this, about Paul not being without fault. Could you repeat it please?
Last edited:
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
You are entitled to your opinion, just as the rest of the 8 billion people are. Just remember, your opinion is only one, so I can chose to believe yours or any one of the other 8 billion opinions out there.
This is why I chose to believe what God said, so with all due respect to ourself. I must reject your opinion and believe what God said, because you're opinion is in direct opposition to God's Word.
I see you follow the crowd, while turning your back towards God. You have placed your faith in 1500 years Roman Catholicism, while denying Gods Word. My Bible describes a great Harlot who deceives the whole world, you have come under Her strong delusion. So you're willing to trample over the blood of Christ to follow Her.
You have made your position clear and stated that "you don't want to know the truth" so I don't want to waste my time trying to share the truth with someone who hates it so mush that they have slammed the door shut on it. I will pray for you, but that's all I can do, unless God quickens you from the dead and opens your eyes.
Yes, this would mean that we do hold radically different ideas about God and the Gospel. And it means we will both be reading the Bible in very different ways.
Don't be too quick to label me, it won't help you to understand me.
Much love!
My question is, how do you make that walk consistent? At the present time, not being in Theosis, you are waiting for it to happen to you again, and until then, there is nothing you can do aside from try to be as yielded as you can be, knowing there is nothing you can do to "make it happen", so you simply wait for it from God, hoping that one day He will do this for you again. Is that a fair statement?
Much love!
Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
The word forms (syntax) in this verse show that "walking in the Spirit" (stoixomen) is in the "Present Tense, Active Voice" which signifies something you are to do yourself, continually. So this isn't about what I believe, it's about what the Bible says.
This agrees with what Paul wrote a few verses earlier,
Again, walking in the Spirit is Present Tense, Active Voice, something you yourself do continually.
These are both the same, Present Tense, Active Voice, something you yourself do, continually.
It's not that I believe we choose to walk in the Spirit, the heart of the matter is that I believe what I read in the Bible, and this is what the Bible says.
Much love!
Well, you've provided a reply that requires answering.
Since my answer will very much derail this thread, I'm going to start a thread and tag you in.
See you there.
That could be what was in his mind, perhaps, but how would we in fact know?
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 KJV
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:22 KJV
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Job 42:7-9 KJV
7) And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8) Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9) So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
Ezekiel 14:14 KJV
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
It may be that Job sinned, but knew that by faith in God, he would be forgiven, and therefore didn't offer sacrifice for himself. What I'm reading in the Scripture is that God considered Job righteous and upright. I'm reading that others requiring sacrifice to be accepted, but not Job. And perhaps he had offered sacrifice previously having sinned in times past, I'd imagine so, but I'll draw a line between what I imagine so, and what the Scripture says.
It says that Job was righteous, did what was right, was accepted by God, and God through His prophet credits Job's righteousness.
I don't believe it's valid to ascribe a certain theology of faith supplanting sacrifice for himself even as he sacrificed on behalf of others, that "perhaps they had sinned", while not sacrificing for himself, "I have faith in God's forgiveness."
Personally I see this as yet another example that I'm holding to what the Bible specifically says and doesn't say, part of that "overall view".
Much love!
I see a similar single theme, slightly different. That God made man and gave him life to be in fellowship with God, recipients of God's love, reflections of God's love. Sin brought death which broke that fellowship.
God's answer to man's problem was that someone else die, someone who wasn't guilty, and therefore would survive that death. Someone who can unite with all of God's created people. Someone who could confer life to the guilty and dead, so as to restore that fellowship with God. Someone who can undo the corruption of sin, breaking the cycle. Someone who shepherds us into the live of righteousness, having broken sin's power over us.
Yes, this is all too much the case, as I'm coming to learn. It's by resting in Christ's finished work that we gain victory over sin, and a life of love and peace and joy and gentleness and self control and all that He brings into our lives.
I'm coming to see that this rest is entered into by faith, that He's already given this to us, and sometimes He gives us a boost into it.
I think where Paul said he can do all things through Christ who strengthens him, that he was speaking towards enduring all circumstances whether plentious or not without sin.
Job is our example, all that he endured, the loss of nearly everything, yet through it all Job didn't sin, he endured without sin.
Much love!
Last edited:
It's a matter of getting used to the new way of thinking and feeling. I believe this is our true state in Christ when we are not being deceived by what our flesh wants, as though it were us.
It is putting off the old man. Looking more deeply into the truth of this faith strengthens, not weakens it. The will power involved is only about where to direct my mind, my attention. Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Agreed! But what that actually means to each of us is different. Narratives will only illustrate the truths taught, they will not modify the truts taught to be different from the words used.
Let me think about what to say. I think I've already described this earlier in the thread, but that's a needle in a haystack now! :-)
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
From the NLT:
3 As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. I don’t even trust my own judgment on this point. 4 My conscience is clear, but that doesn’t prove I’m right. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide.
5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.
Much love!
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Every Christian hold to one of the two views. The fact that you reject Reformed theology, means that you hold to Arminian theology.
I would be interested to hear about a third option, but I won't hold my breath as nobody has ever found it thus far. The worlds greatest theologians and bible scholars have been searching for this illusive third view for the past 500 years and they haven't found it, but let me guess you have
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
That all sounds nice and tickly to the ears, but the sad reality is there are two deal breaking problems with your interpretation of those verses.
Then first one is with Gal 5:25 where you seem to have missed the all important first word "IF". You might think it's a small word but in this case it's identifying specific people. It's saying "If God has elected you to salvation, it will be evidenced by the fact that you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Paul is exhorting those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit to walk in Him and not to resist His guidance.
If I said "If you play football, make sure you attend all the training sessions". According to your theology, this "IF" applies to everyone, so the entire public should attend football training sessions.
Arminian theology is fundamentally flawed, because you guys always fail to make the distinction between Gods Children and the Children of the Devil. You put them all in the same basket and whenever Paul exhorts believers to remain faithful to the gospel, you take it as an invitation for the reprobate to accept the free offer.
Well, that just doesn't work in Gods economy, where He is the One who choses His elect and it's not your choice.
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
The only way one can abide in Christ, is if God grafts them into the body of Christ in the first place. We are born dead branches,, we can't make ourselves alive while we're dead in the desert. But God takes His elect and plants them by the living water, which is the Body of Christ.
Then they bare fruit, but you're saying that the dead can quicken themselves to life and change their sin nature and deny themselves and choose to follow Christ, this is simply impossible and it's a ludicrous suggestion to begin with.
