The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.

[grafted branch]

Have you ever tried reading the bible?

Yea, I have read it, and it says God is not the author of confusion.

You claim that you are already in the barn and it's not even harvest time

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about, the fields were ready to harvest approximately 2,000 years ago.

 

[tailgator]

Huh? What did you say? I wasn’t listening.

Do you understand why Egypt does not accompany Gog after the thousand years?

Ezekiel 38
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

 

[Davidpt]

One group says the earth is not destroyed by fire, and the other group says it is. One group says all men are killed in the fire, the other says no men are killed in a fire. Why do you guys have to be polar opposites on this?

The truth is the earth is determined to be cleansed by fire with a few men left. That is what the words of God show in several places in scripture.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Some of us are not so much disputing that some men are killed by fire. We're disputing the manner in which some insist that it happens, that it means the entire planet is engulfed in flames at the time. Which, BTW, if true, it contradicts the passage you submitted which you feel supports your argument.

That passage says--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. If taking this part--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, to be meaning the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, as in every square inch of it, that verse would not then be saying, and few men left. It would be saying no men left, as in zero, since no mortal could survive if every square inch of the planet is literally engulfed in flames the same way every square inch of the planet was engulfed in water during Noah's flood.

How many outside of the ark survived that? Obviously, creatures that can live in the water, such as fish, turtles, etc, they survived it since it would be a contradiction that something that can live in the water can be drowned. But that is beside the point. If a fire engulfed the entire planet, even fish couldn't survive that since the heat would be so immense it would kill them eventually. Not to mention, it would cut off their source of oxygen. I then have to wonder why Ezekiel 47 records that there will still be fish present in the earth post the 2nd coming? If fish are still present post the 2nd coming, why wouldn't animals also still be present, such as dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc? But how could there be if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames? No animal could survive that. Even if they found refuge in a cave or something, eventually the immense heat and smoke is going to do them in.

Ezekiel 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

 

[tailgator]

Yea, I have read it, and it says God is not the author of confusion.


John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about, the fields were ready to harvest approximately 2,000 years ago.

Mathew 13
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.




You read that and then you determined the end of the world was 2000 years ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s the point, Paul knew those who are of the first resurrection were the “blessed and holy” dead in Christ mentioned in Rev 20. Paul did NOT say all the wicked rise first, or that ALL the dead rise first. Paul specifically said the dead in Christ rise first, because Paul understood the order of the resurrections of the dead.

One last time. The context of the dead rising first in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is that they had to be resurrected first in order to be caught up together with those who are alive and remain as it should be obvious that they couldn't be caught up together with them without being resurrected first. That's what that verse means. If you disagree then it just shows you have no interest in interpreting scripture in context and would rather make scripture say what you want it to say.

I’m not changing anything, all the scriptures agree. You just have a problem accepting this….But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Clearly not ALL the dead are raised at the same time.

How many hours did Jesus say are coming when all of the dead would be raised? One or two? In my Bible it has Him saying "the HOUR is coming" when all of the dead will be resurrected in John 5:28-29. You are completely ignoring that and changing it to say instead that the HOURS are coming when the dead will be raised.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand how you feel.
It's a waste of time for me to tell you there are still kings sitting on thrones in the world after 33 AD.

That's definitely a waste of time for you to tell me that since I never said otherwise.

 

[IndianaRob]

Sorry but I don't understand why you think that It says that Jesus approached the Father not Jesus and the saints. Jesus didn't go to heaven until 40 or so days after the OT saints rose as shown in Matthew 27

I think the clouds in that verse are these clouds.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[grafted branch]

Mathew 13
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.




You read that and then you determined the end of the world was 2000 years ago.

Matthew 13:39 NIV and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

It’s not the end of the world per se, it’s the end of the age. The old covenant age ended in 70AD.

Do you have an adversity to scripture being fulfilled? Is there a reason everything has to still take place in the future?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some of us are not so much disputing that some men are killed by fire. We're disputing the manner in which some insist that it happens, that it means the entire planet is engulfed in flames at the time. Which, BTW, if true, it contradicts the passage you submitted which you feel supports your argument.

That passage says--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. If taking this part--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, to be meaning the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, as in every square inch of it, that verse would not then be saying, and few men left. It would be saying no men left, as in zero, since no mortal could survive if every square inch of the planet is literally engulfed in flames the same way every square inch of the planet was engulfed in water during Noah's flood.

How many outside of the ark survived that? Obviously, creatures that can live in the water, such as fish, turtles, etc, they survived it since it would be a contradiction that something that can live in the water can be drowned. But that is beside the point. If a fire engulfed the entire planet, even fish couldn't survive that since the heat would be so immense it would kill them eventually. Not to mention, it would cut off their source of oxygen.

This is what I've been trying to tell him. For the sake of argument, assume the following is meant to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Does verse 10 say that some of the earth will be burned up or that the earth itself will be burned up? It says the earth itself will be burned up, right? Implying all of it. So, if this is taken literally you can only conclude that no mortal could possibly survive it. But, he takes it literally and somehow thinks some mortal people will survive it. I'd love to know how that could possibly happen, but he won't even address that.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 Paul talks about the same event and said in relation to those who are in spiritual darkness at that time that "the shall not escape". But, he takes 2 Peter 3:10-12 literally has some mortals somehow escaping. I just don't get it.

By the way, do you not take "the sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" in 1 Thess 5:2-3 literally, either? To be consistent, you can't, because it's not as if Paul is talking about a different day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night than Peter wrote about.

 

[tailgator]

That's definitely a waste of time for you to tell me that since I never said otherwise.

Good then
Because the thrones are cast down before the son of man came in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good then
Because the thrones are cast down before the son of man came in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 is not all in chronological order. You clearly have no understanding about Apocalyptic writing. Notice in Daniel 7:13-14 that he sees new visions that were not part of the vision he had seen previously.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So, what Daniel saw in his visions here was not directly related to what he had seen previously as if what he saw was supposed to follow what he saw in the previous vision chronologically.

Just compare Daniel 7:13-14 to the following passage that says what happened as a result of Christ's resurrection and ascension and you should see the similarities:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

In case you don't understand the concept of Apocalyptic writing not all being in chronological order, how do you interpret Revelation 11 and 12? Can you recognize that what is described in Revelation 12, which includes the birth and ascension of Christ, does not follow what is described at the end of Revelation 11 (the seventh trumpet) chronologically?

 

[tailgator]

Matthew 13:39 NIV and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

It’s not the end of the world per se, it’s the end of the age. The old covenant age ended in 70AD.

Do you have an adversity to scripture being fulfilled? Is there a reason everything has to still take place in the future?

So you believe Jesus came with his angels and have already gathered the tares and burned them and have already gathered the wheat into the barn.

What year are you saying this was fulfilled?

Mathew 13:41-42

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[tailgator]

Daniel 7 is not all in chronological order. You clearly have no understanding about Apocalyptic writing. Notice in Daniel 7:13-14 that he sees new visions that were not part of the same vision he had seen previously.

Where does it say it was a new vision and not part of the vision,?
Even the interpretation says the kingdom set up that will never be destroyed is after the beast being destroyed .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where does it say it was a new vision and not part of the vision,?
Even the interpretation says the kingdom set up that will never be destroyed is after the beast being destroyed .

I always have to spell everything out to you. You might want to try actually reading the text that you talk about so that you have some idea of what it actually says. In Daniel 7:2 Daniel says he saw a vision and it ends in verse 12. Then, he said this:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

See how it says "I saw in the night visions" and proceeded to describe what he saw? That means these were different visions than he had seen just before that. Very simple.

 

[grafted branch]

What year are you saying this was fulfilled?

70AD, that’s when the old covenant vanished and those who entered into the kingdom through the old covenant requirements but rejected the new covenant were finally weeded out. The new covenant came into force through the death and resurrection of Christ, which made the old covenant obsolete at that point.

It was that generation and that time period in which all these things happened. Currently no unsaved person can enter into the kingdom of God. I don’t think unsaved people have the capacity to even recognize the kingdom of God. Not that all saved people recognize the kingdom, only that the unsaved are not capable.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

That passage says--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. If taking this part--the inhabitants of the earth are burned, to be meaning the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, as in every square inch of it, that verse would not then be saying, and few men left. It would be saying no men left, as in zero, since no mortal could survive if every square inch of the planet is literally engulfed in flames the same way every square inch of the planet was engulfed in water during Noah's flood.

Well it does not specify if every square inch is burned, but it does specify that a few men shall be left. We also see below that some of the people of the nations remain during the millennial reign of Christ on earth.

Zechariah 14:12-21

King James Version

​

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.”

 

[tailgator]

I always have to spell everything out to you. You might want to try actually reading the text that you talk about so that you have some idea of what it actually says. In Daniel 7:2 Daniel says he saw a vision and it ends in verse 12. Then, he said this:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

See how it says "I saw in the night visions" and proceeded to describe what he saw? That means these were different visions than he had seen just before that. Very simple.

Then it has nothing to do with the interpretation of the dream of the everlasting kingdom being given to the saints after the beast is destroyed
Thank you very much .

Now we are back to where we started that the saints are given the kingdom under heaven after the beast is destroyed and not before.

Daniel ,7
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


This is the same kingdom of priests in revelation 20 which reign with Christ for 1000 years before fire comes down from heaven and destroys Gog,Ethiopia,Persia Libya and all the other nations that surround them after the 1000 years.
I'm happy they received the kingdom under heaven.I think they deserve it don't you?

Hallelujah.

 

[tailgator]

70AD, that’s when the old covenant vanished and those who entered into the kingdom through the old covenant requirements but rejected the new covenant were finally weeded out. The new covenant came into force through the death and resurrection of Christ, which made the old covenant obsolete at that point.

It was that generation and that time period in which all these things happened. Currently no unsaved person can enter into the kingdom of God. I don’t think unsaved people have the capacity to even recognize the kingdom of God. Not that all saved people recognize the kingdom, only that the unsaved are not capable.

Do you have any proof that anyone was cast into a furnace?
Was the furnace anything like a lake of fire?


Mathew 13:41-42

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Marty fox]

I think the clouds in that verse are these clouds.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Sure but Jesus sat beside the Father when He ascended and received His throne as stated in Daniel 7

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then it has nothing to do with the interpretation of the dream of the everlasting kingdom being given to the saints after the beast is destroyed
Thank you very much .

Say what now? How do you figure? In verses 17 to 27 an interpretation of everything Daniel had seen was given, including the vision he had as described in verses 2-12 and the visions he had, as described in verses 13 and 14.

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel was grieved by all the visions he had seen, as described in verses 2-14, and the explanation for all of them is given in verses 17-27.

Now we are back to where we started that the saints are given the kingdom under heaven after the beast is destroyed and not before.

Daniel ,7
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

This relates to Daniel 7:13-14 which is about the ascension of Christ.

You're right that we are back to where we started. I don't know about you, but I don't feel like having the exact same discussion about this that we've already had. So, I'm now done talking about this.