Could Jesus have sinned?

[GracePeace]

If I were you I would ask a moderator. (As the pm communication system is a component function of Christianity Board, the powers that be here might take the position that the current policy which prohibits discussion of the Trinity on Christianity Board also applies to pm’s.)

Will do!

 

[GracePeace]

@Pearl Would it be all right if I discussed the issue of the Trinity in PM with another member?

 

[KUWN]

If Jesus sinned it would have been an admission that God can't live up to his own standards, and a victory for Satan who could not have been rightly cast out of heaven. The result being a retcon in the power structures of heaven.

The earth would surely not survive such turmoil in heaven. It might never have been created in the first place.

lforrest wrote:

"If Jesus sinned it would have been an admission that God can't live up to his own standards..."

That is exactly right.

 

[Johann]

I guess IDK how that would mean Christ wasn't a "human person", but, then again, the issue of "trinity" brings many distinctions and definitions that I'm not really acquainted with.

Only thing is as man Messiah had no sin nature.

In Christian theology, sin nature refers to the inherent tendency or predisposition to sin. This is believed to be a consequence of the Fall of Adam and Eve, affecting all humanity. Since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not by the natural process involving human seed, He is considered to be free from this inherent sin nature.

Hebrews 4:15:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

This verse highlights that Jesus, though fully tempted like humans, remained without sin. The Greek term used for "without sin" is ἀμαρτητος (amartētos), which signifies being free from sin.

Hebrews 7:26:

"For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens."

Here, Jesus is described with several attributes denoting His purity and sinlessness. The Greek term ἄκακος (akakos), translated as "innocent," implies moral integrity and freedom from guilt.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

The whole purpose of writing this was to demonstrate that Jesus could not have sinned. That is a worthy event.

But...
If Jesus "couldn't" have sinned, then he couldn't have been tempted to sin.

I don't tempt a cat to steal my car by letting him play with my car keys.

[

 

[Johann]

I'm not really sure Jesus is God, because it says no one has seen God, but Christ has explained Him (including past appearances of "God", according to John--"Isaiah saw Christ's glory"), and, so, we have seen Christ... but, then, why does Christ say "I AM"... unless He just copies the Father, and Christ having "equality with God" would mean "God" is one thing, and Christ/the Word is another thing that "copies" that God, and inherits from God, so, in that sense, making Him "equal with God"... it's really difficult, because, also, Christ is the husband of the people of God, and, in the OT, God was the husband of the people of God. It's difficult to really come to a full conclusion.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: Rev_1:8
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev_1:8 YHWH Himself speaks this verse, affirming the truth of the previous statements about Jesus. It combines four titles for Him with an allusion to a fifth and possibly a sixth. Apparently, Rev_1:8 was God adding His personal affirmation to the above statement by the use of these magnificent names.

1. "I Am," which is an allusion to the Covenant name YHWH (cf. Exo_3:14), a form of the verb "to be." Jesus used this of Himself (cf. Joh_8:56-59). The title "Lord" (kurios) in the NT reflects this OT title.

2. "Alpha and Omega" are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet which assume that God is the beginning and the ending, the controller of history (cf. Isa_44:6; Rev_21:6); this title is also used of Jesus in Rev_1:17; Rev_22:13.

3. "The Lord" is the modern way of translating YHWH (se Special Topic following).

4. "God" in Gen_2:4, YHWH, and Elohim are combined (the LORD God) as a name for deity. El is the general name for god in the Near East, from the root "to be strong."

5. "The One who is the One who was, the One coming" is the phrase used earlier in Rev_1:4, which speaks of the unchanging, ever-living God (cf. Psa_102:27; Mal_3:6; Jas_1:17). This phrase is used of God the Father, YHWH, in Rev_1:4; Rev_1:8 and of Jesus, God the Son, in Rev_1:17-18; Rev_22:13 (cf. Heb_13:8).

6. "The Almighty" which was the OT term, (1) "El-Shaddai," the patriarchal name for God (cf. Exo_6:3) or (2) "YHWH Sabaoth," from the LXX's "The Lord God Almighty. It is found often in this book (i.e., pantokratôr, cf. Rev_4:8; Rev_11:17; Rev_15:3; Rev_16:7; Rev_16:14; Rev_19:6; Rev_19:11; Rev_21:22), but only once in the other NT books (i.e., 2Co_6:18).

Consider this-

1 BESURAS HAGEULAH ACCORDING TO YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Who is the D'var Hashem?
"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message. See Contextual Insights, C.

"with God" "With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations. The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

"the Word was God" This VERB is IMPERFECT TENSE as in John 1:1a. There is no ARTICLE (which identifies the SUBJECT, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and John 1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. John 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1). Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1 John 4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM

SPECIAL TOPIC: DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT

The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in John 1:1; 5:18; 10:30,34-38; 14:9-10; and 20:28, while their distinct persons are emphasized in John 1:2,14,18; 5:19-23; 8:28; 10:25,29; 14:11,12,13,16.

SPECIAL TOPIC: FATHERHOOD OF GOD

SPECIAL TOPIC: FATHER

1:2 This is parallel to John 1:1 and emphasizes again the shocking truth in light of monotheism (cf. Deut. 6:4-6) that Jesus, who was born around 6-5 B.C., has always been with the Father and, therefore, is Deity.

IF you are interested--

John 1

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[Johann]

All human persons have the capacity to sin. In the dominant Christian theology of our day, Jesus is not a human person (if he was he could have sinned but didn’t); he is a divine person (God cannot sin and didn’t).

Human Capacity to Sin:

The assertion that all human persons have the capacity to sin aligns with traditional Christian doctrine, which teaches that, due to original sin, humanity possesses a sinful nature that predisposes individuals to sin.
Nature of Jesus:

Your statement reflects a prevalent view in certain theological circles that differentiates between Jesus' divine and human natures. In traditional Christian theology, particularly as articulated in the Chalcedonian Definition (451 AD), Jesus is understood to be one person (the Son) with two distinct natures: divine and human.

Jesus as a Human Person:

Your claim that Jesus is not a human person contradicts the traditional understanding of the Incarnation. The orthodox view is that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, possessing a complete human nature that includes the capacity for temptation, yet He did not sin. This understanding emphasizes that while He experienced the full range of human experiences and temptations, His divine nature ensured that He remained sinless.

Divine Personhood:

It is correct to state that God cannot sin, as His nature is wholly good and without moral flaw. However, this does not negate the reality of Jesus' human nature. The duality of His nature—being both divine and human—allows for a unique expression of His humanity that does not necessitate sinning, even though He was fully capable of experiencing temptation.

So- summary, while your statement captures some aspects of contemporary theological discussions, it may not fully align with traditional Christian teaching regarding the dual nature of Christ. According to orthodox belief, Jesus is both a divine person and a fully human person, embodying the mystery of the Incarnation, where His divine nature ensures His sinlessness while His human nature allows for genuine human experiences, including temptation.
ChatGpt.

Guess this is where we disagree @Matthias.
J.

 

[GracePeace]

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: Rev_1:8
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev_1:8 YHWH Himself speaks this verse, affirming the truth of the previous statements about Jesus. It combines four titles for Him with an allusion to a fifth and possibly a sixth. Apparently, Rev_1:8 was God adding His personal affirmation to the above statement by the use of these magnificent names.

1. "I Am," which is an allusion to the Covenant name YHWH (cf. Exo_3:14), a form of the verb "to be." Jesus used this of Himself (cf. Joh_8:56-59). The title "Lord" (kurios) in the NT reflects this OT title.

2. "Alpha and Omega" are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet which assume that God is the beginning and the ending, the controller of history (cf. Isa_44:6; Rev_21:6); this title is also used of Jesus in Rev_1:17; Rev_22:13.

3. "The Lord" is the modern way of translating YHWH (se Special Topic following).

4. "God" in Gen_2:4, YHWH, and Elohim are combined (the LORD God) as a name for deity. El is the general name for god in the Near East, from the root "to be strong."

5. "The One who is the One who was, the One coming" is the phrase used earlier in Rev_1:4, which speaks of the unchanging, ever-living God (cf. Psa_102:27; Mal_3:6; Jas_1:17). This phrase is used of God the Father, YHWH, in Rev_1:4; Rev_1:8 and of Jesus, God the Son, in Rev_1:17-18; Rev_22:13 (cf. Heb_13:8).

6. "The Almighty" which was the OT term, (1) "El-Shaddai," the patriarchal name for God (cf. Exo_6:3) or (2) "YHWH Sabaoth," from the LXX's "The Lord God Almighty. It is found often in this book (i.e., pantokratôr, cf. Rev_4:8; Rev_11:17; Rev_15:3; Rev_16:7; Rev_16:14; Rev_19:6; Rev_19:11; Rev_21:22), but only once in the other NT books (i.e., 2Co_6:18).

Consider this-

1 BESURAS HAGEULAH ACCORDING TO YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Who is the D'var Hashem?
"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message. See Contextual Insights, C.

"with God" "With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations. The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

"the Word was God" This VERB is IMPERFECT TENSE as in John 1:1a. There is no ARTICLE (which identifies the SUBJECT, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and John 1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. John 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1). Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1 John 4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.

SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM

SPECIAL TOPIC: DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT

The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in John 1:1; 5:18; 10:30,34-38; 14:9-10; and 20:28, while their distinct persons are emphasized in John 1:2,14,18; 5:19-23; 8:28; 10:25,29; 14:11,12,13,16.

SPECIAL TOPIC: FATHERHOOD OF GOD

SPECIAL TOPIC: FATHER

1:2 This is parallel to John 1:1 and emphasizes again the shocking truth in light of monotheism (cf. Deut. 6:4-6) that Jesus, who was born around 6-5 B.C., has always been with the Father and, therefore, is Deity.

IF you are interested--

John 1

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Thanks, but, also, Matthias reminded me that the topic is not permitted.

 

[Johann]

Thanks, but, also, Matthias reminded me that the topic is not permitted.

Very unfortunate since this is one of the core doctrines in Christianity.
But I do believe Utley will be most helpful here-Achi ta Achi.
J.

 

[Johann]

I was raised trinitarian and taught trinitarianism as a pastor and as an adjunct college professor. What I wrote about the historical orthodox teaching on Jesus is accurate. It can be easily confirmed, in multiple ways. I stand by it, though I no longer personally believe what the doctrine teaches.

I would discuss it further with you but I have an agreement with @Angelina not to discuss it here with anyone.

No worries, it seems the Shema will stay preserved and continue as a Sod.
J.

 

[Matthias]

No worries, it seems the Shema will stay preserved and continue as a Sod.
J.

The Messiah’s creed / my creed.

***

I’m reading a book at the moment about the Nicene creed and why it had to be modified at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381.

I noticed that there is a thread on the Board that requires participants to endorse the Nicene creed. I personally don’t have any issue with that but it’s interesting to note that such a thread would not have been possible in the first three centuries (if Christianity Board had existed then) as it would automatically exclude all Christians who lived and died prior to the creed being formulated and modified.

 

[Johann]

The Messiah’s creed / my creed.

***

I’m reading a book at the moment about the Nicene creed and why it had to be modified at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381.

I noticed that there is a thread on the Board that requires participants to endorse the Nicene creed. I personally don’t have any issue with that but it’s interesting to note that such a thread would not have been possible in the first three centuries (if Christianity Board had existed then) as it would automatically exclude all Christians who lived and died prior to the creed being formulated and modified.

I believe you're right about that thread, as the original poster blocked me from participating any further.
J..

 

[Matthias]

I believe you're right about that thread, as the original poster blocked me from participating any further.
J..

Threads are created for various purposes. The purpose of that particular thread is to exclude certain persons so that the group can study the scriptures from the perspective of those who meet a certain criteria and without being distracted by persons who don’t hold that particular perspective. I found it a little odd since the persons excluded from the group, as well as the persons included in the group, aren’t allowed to discuss the subject that excludes people from the group.

It doesn’t affect me personally. I’m a Christian confined - voluntarily and by agreement with the Board administration - to the forums of the Board that are not marked “Christians Only”. I’m quite pleased with the arrangement and don’t want to say or do anything that might jeopardize it.

 

[Johann]

Threads are created for various purposes. The purpose of that particular thread is to exclude certain persons so that the group can study the scriptures from the perspective of those who meet a certain criteria and without being distracted by persons who don’t hold that particular perspective. I found it a little odd since the persons excluded from the group, as well as the persons included in the group, aren’t allowed to discuss the subject that excludes people from the group.

It doesn’t affect me personally. I’m a Christian confined - voluntarily and by agreement with the Board administration - to the forums of the Board that are not marked “Christians Only”. I’m quite pleased with the arrangement and don’t want to do anything that might jeopardize it.

I can see why the thread might be structured that way, as certain groups prefer to have focused discussions from a specific perspective. It does seem a bit unusual, though, that both included and excluded individuals aren't allowed to discuss the core subject. Personally, it doesn't affect me either. I've agreed with the Board's administration to remain active in forums not marked 'Christians Only,' and I'm quite happy with this arrangement. I appreciate the clarity it brings and wouldn't want to risk disrupting it.
J.

 

[Stumpmaster]

FAQ: Was Jesus one of Adam's paternal descendants?

However, Mary being a virgin when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit means imperfect human seed was not involved in His conception.

Quote:

The Virgin Birth of Christ is a foundational doctrine in Christianity that plays a crucial role in understanding Jesus’ sinless nature. Here are a few key points:

1. Divine Conception: According to Christian belief, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. This means He did not inherit a sinful nature from a human father12.
2. Sinless Nature: The Bible teaches that sin entered the world through Adam, and this sinful nature is passed down through human generations. Since Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit this original sin23.
3. Perfect Sacrifice: For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for humanity’s sins, He needed to be without sin. His sinless nature made Him the perfect and unblemished sacrifice, capable of atoning for the sins of the world2.
4. Fulfillment of Prophecy: The Virgin Birth also fulfills Old Testament prophecies, such as Isaiah 7:14, which speaks of a virgin giving birth to a son called Immanuel (meaning “God with us”). This underscores Jesus’ divine origin and mission1.

In essence, the Virgin Birth is seen as the means by which Jesus was born holy and sinless, setting Him apart from all other humans born naturally since Adam. [Copilot]

 

[Johann]

However, Mary being a virgin when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit means imperfect human seed was not involved in His conception.

Ditto.
J.

 

[David in NJ]

I guess IDK how that would mean Christ wasn't a "human person", but, then again, the issue of "trinity" brings many distinctions and definitions that I'm not really acquainted with.

The Truth of God being 3 begins in Genesis where it is FIRST declared by God in Genesis chapter 1

the word 'God' is not accurate according to Scripture

the correct word for 'God' is from the Hebrew = 'Elohim'

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

 

[Johann]

The Truth of God being 3 begins in Genesis where it is FIRST declared by God in Genesis chapter 1

the word 'God' is not accurate according to Scripture

the correct word for 'God' is from the Hebrew word 'Elohim'

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

BERESHIS
PARASHAS BERESHIS

In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).
Gen 1:2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light [Tehillim 33:6,9].
Gen 1:4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was tov (good); and Elohim divided the ohr (light) from the choshech (darkness).
Gen 1:5 And Elohim called the light Yom (Day), and the darkness He called Lailah (Night). And the erev (evening) and the boker (morning) were Yom Echad (Day One, the First Day, Mk 16:2).
OJB.

Now turn to BERESHIS 2.

And you should read--Hashem Elohim--

J.

 

[David in NJ]

However, Mary being a virgin when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit means imperfect human seed was not involved in His conception.

Quote:

The Virgin Birth of Christ is a foundational doctrine in Christianity that plays a crucial role in understanding Jesus’ sinless nature. Here are a few key points:

1. Divine Conception: According to Christian belief, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. This means He did not inherit a sinful nature from a human father12.
2. Sinless Nature: The Bible teaches that sin entered the world through Adam, and this sinful nature is passed down through human generations. Since Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit this original sin23.
3. Perfect Sacrifice: For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for humanity’s sins, He needed to be without sin. His sinless nature made Him the perfect and unblemished sacrifice, capable of atoning for the sins of the world2.
4. Fulfillment of Prophecy: The Virgin Birth also fulfills Old Testament prophecies, such as Isaiah 7:14, which speaks of a virgin giving birth to a son called Immanuel (meaning “God with us”). This underscores Jesus’ divine origin and mission1.

In essence, the Virgin Birth is seen as the means by which Jesus was born holy and sinless, setting Him apart from all other humans born naturally since Adam. [Copilot]

It also means that Jesus did not inherit the sin of Mary as well - dwell on that.

 

[David in NJ]

BERESHIS
PARASHAS BERESHIS

In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).
Gen 1:2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light [Tehillim 33:6,9].
Gen 1:4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was tov (good); and Elohim divided the ohr (light) from the choshech (darkness).
Gen 1:5 And Elohim called the light Yom (Day), and the darkness He called Lailah (Night). And the erev (evening) and the boker (morning) were Yom Echad (Day One, the First Day, Mk 16:2).
OJB.

Now turn to BERESHIS 2.

And you should read--Hashem Elohim--

J.

Do you SEE all THREE in the collective verses 1,2,3 ???