Christian Liberty Forced me to Leave Dispensationalism

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you read the OT passages you would know that the survivors of Armageddon will repopulate the earth with children and Jesus rules with rod of iron. sin will be vastly reduced because Satan is abyssed but people will sin. Otherwise a rod of iron is silly! And people will have till they are 100 to accept Jesus as Messiah. Those that are born after He returns. this is all in the OT about the Messianic Kingdom when Jesus takes control of the earth.

Where does it mention that any mortals survive Armageddon?

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

You always talk about interpreting scripture literally unless it makes it clear to do otherwise. Does that not apply to this passage somehow? Where are you seeing that the destruction of "all people, free and slave, great and small" should not be taken literally and that it actually means "some people" instead?

 

[PinSeeker]

That is correct and it is still true today! Jesus kingdom is not on earth today.

These two sentences are contradictory to each other, Ronald. Let me break this down...

PinSeeker: their lack of adherence does not lessen the fact that Jesus is King now. As He said, His Kingdom is not of this world.​

That is correct and it is still true today!

Jesus kingdom is not on earth today.

So yeah... Ronald, I'm glad (overjoyed, really) that you agree that Jesus is King now, but what you say after that, that "Jesus's kingdom is not on earth today," is a direct contradiction of what you agreed with. :) His Kingdom is certainly on this planet now, but:

1. not of it; this is what we Christians often say of us as Christians; Scripturally, we are called to be in this world but not of it...
2. still being built, stone by stone (which is to say new believer by new believer)
3. just not yet in its fullness, but will be when God's Israel is brought to completion and Jesus returns (with all those who have gone on before) at the end of the age

As you say because you love to allegorize.

Well, using your definition of 'allegorizing,' Ronald, you do, too. <smile> But it's a false definition... <smile>

Once again an example- If you say You love the police and then I report you desire sex with them, I have allegorized your words.

No, you've just said something that makes no sense whatsoever. <smile>

...not only do I acknowledge symbols but go onto detail to show how scripture itself defines those symbols.

Okay, well, so do I. <smile>

we need not look outside Gods Word to find the meaning of the symbols god uses.

I agree. <smile>

Well if it happens in our lifetime...

It won't. Jesus will certainly return, though ~ once, not two times with any time period in between ~ and execute the final Judgment, and as a result of that Judgment many will... depart... No need for any kind of "rapture" or "removal" of any kind... <smile>

I rest 100% confident that Jesus will perform the great "catching up" aka rapture.

His return will certainly be, to put it mildly, a rapturous event.

<smile>

The kingdom principles and "attitudes" are in the hearts of believers, but that is not the physical kingdom promised and prophesied.

We are His Kingdom, Ronald. With all the deceased saints/believers who have gone on before, and all those who are yet to be converted to Christ. His Kingdom is a people, Ronald.

So where is the riotousness on earth?

Hmmm... you mean righteousness, I think... We are Christ's righteousness, Ronald; as Christians, and we are all individually clothed in His righteousness.

where is Jesus seated in Jerusalem?

Well, specifically, take a look at what Revelation 21:2 says and see if you can figure it out, Ronald:

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."​

<smile>

If He is ruling the earth, given the evil that continues to grow- He would be seen as an impotent king.

By folks who "see it" wrongly... <smile> For now, God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

...Jesus is not physically ruling the earth! He reigns in heaven but the earth is still under the dominion of the god of this world as Paul and Peter and John wrote.

Well again, He hasn't physically returned yet, no. <smile> But He will... <smile> And I would just say that the "god of this world" cannot do anything without the permission of... You-Know-Who. <smile> God is in full control. <smile> As I said, that there is sin and death in this world does not negate the fact that Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords... or, as the writer of one of my favorite hymns (Fairest Lord Jesus) puts it, beautiful Savior, Lord of all the nations,

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where does it mention that any mortals survive Armageddon?

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

You always talk about interpreting scripture literally unless it makes it clear to do otherwise. Does that not apply to this passage somehow? Where are you seeing that the destruction of "all people, free and slave, great and small" should not be taken literally and that it actually means "some people" instead?

Yes it does apply to this passage as well, and he passage also defines what is meant by "all" people! What you fail to understand is that every verse must not contradict the other verses that deal with this subject.

Zech 13 promises 1/3 of Israel survives Armageddon, for they live after God kills off 2/3

Matt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This cannot be the resurrection for REv. 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The resurrection of the saved and unsaved occur before and then after the 1000 years.

Matt. 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

People see Jesus returning to earth and mourn. And Jesus sends angels to gather the elect from across the globe!

Rev 16:

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This is not every person on earth, but the armies of the world called by the AC to fight Jesus upon His return.

Also you need to understand the context of the word all.

All can mean every single thing or person, or all people from a select group

example;--

1. In the world census all the people added up to 7.8 billion---this means every single person everywhere.
2. Did all the children come to the party?- This is not every child across the globe! What is in view here is every person of a particular group (those invited)

given the other Scriptures and the description found in Rev. 19- the dead are those who gathered at Armageddon to fight the Lord upon His return.

I still see the literal here using correct rules of grammar, context and understanding based on the other verses in Scripture that deal with this.

Once again the literal/historical/grammatical hermeneutic recognizes word usage.

also I also undergird this with twhat is known as the golden rule of bible interpretation:

The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation​

Posted on March 30, 2014

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So yeah... Ronald, I'm glad (overjoyed, really) that you agree that Jesus is King now, but what you say after that, that "Jesus's kingdom is not on earth today," is a direct contradiction of what you agreed with. :) His Kingdom is certainly on this planet now, but:

1. not of it; this is what we Christians often say of us as Christians; Scripturally, we are called to be in this world but not of it...
2. still being built, stone by stone (which is to say new believer by new believer)
3. just not yet in its fullness, but will be when God's Israel is brought to completion and Jesus returns (with all those who have gone on before) at the end of the age

So you believe that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron and yet tolerates and winks at the evil of the world as the ruling King!

so you believe this verse is historic:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So you believe the seven seals have already been opened. You also believe the seven trumpets have already sounded.

YOu believe the two witnesses have already come and gone, gave their testimony, were killed and rose and ascended to heaven and the earthquake shook Jerusalem then.

Can you please point out from history when these 2 sets of judgments (seals trumpets) took place , and when did the two witnesses come and go?

YOU also believe Jesus is letting Satan roam freely in His kingdom devouring souls and deceiving people.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Were Peter an Paul mistaken? Did they not get the inspiration right? for they are talking as in the present not the past. do you really think the King of Kings would allow Satan and His armies to roam freely in his kngdom?

Cannot your concept of Jesus drive out the weaker enemy from HIs kingdom and not harm His citizens?

Ephesians 6:11-17

King James Version

​

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes it does apply to this passage as well, and he passage also defines what is meant by "all" people! What you fail to understand is that every verse must not contradict the other verses that deal with this subject.

I believe YOU fail to understand that. You take other scripture out of context which causes contradictions in scripture. You say you take Revelation 19:17-18, but you clearly do not.

Zech 13 promises 1/3 of Israel survives Armageddon, for they live after God kills off 2/3

Zechariah 13 is not about Armageddon. Don't try to make the whole Bible about the future. Your hyperfuturism does you no favors.

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Jesus quoted this verse in relation to His first coming, not the second. You're not doing your due diligence to look at the context of scripture.

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. 33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

You clearly interpret scripture based on assumptions and speculation rather than on looking at the context.

Matt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This cannot be the resurrection for REv. 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The resurrection of the saved and unsaved occur before and then after the 1000 years.

How can that happen before and after the thousand years? You're making a mess of scripture and causing it to contradict itself. Jesus said the dead saved and unsaved will be resurrected in the same hour/time:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt. 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

People see Jesus returning to earth and mourn. And Jesus sends angels to gather the elect from across the globe!

They will not mourn when He comes. It will be too late for that. They will wail in fear! You are misinterpreting everything.

These verses show the context of Matthew 24:29-31...

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 16:

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This is not every person on earth, but the armies of the world called by the AC to fight Jesus upon His return.

Again, you miss the context and you also miss the symbolism. It's not talking about a literal place on earth called Armageddon. Do you think Babylon is a literal place on earth called Babylon? Do you think Magog in Revelation 20:8 is a literal place on earth even though it's described in direct relation to the "ethnos" in the four quarters of the earth?

Notice here that it describes not just the destruction of "the armies of the world", but "all people, free and slave, great and small". You drew a conclusion from reading the passage from Revelation 16 without keeping Revelation 19 in mind. That's your problem. You interpret passages in isolation without taking the rest of scripture into account.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Also you need to understand the context of the word all.

All can mean every single thing or person, or all people from a select group

LOL. No, YOU need to understand the context for the word all and stop trying to change it to mean what you want it to mean.

given the other Scriptures and the description found in Rev. 19- the dead are those who gathered at Armageddon to fight the Lord upon His return.

No. You are ignoring the text. It first talks about the kings, generals, and the mighty being destroyed but then it expands to say that "all people, free and slave, great and small." are destroyed, which you try to change to make it say what you want it to say. We are given an added detail there that isn't included in the Revelation 16 passages and you won't accept that because you force the Revelation 19 passage to agree with your false interpretation of the Revelation 16 passage instead of reconciling the two together.

I still see the literal here using correct rules of grammar, context and understanding based on the other verses in Scripture that deal with this.

No, you do not. You use your own rules of making the scriptures say what you want them to say.

Once again the literal/historical/grammatical hermeneutic recognizes word usage.

Not all scripture is literal, so a literal hermeneutic is a terrible one. It assumes that everything is literal unless it's explicitly spelled out otherwise, which is ridiculous. It's not always clear if something is literal, symbolic, poetic or whatever the case may be.

also I also undergird this with twhat is known as the golden rule of bible interpretation:

The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation​

Posted on March 30, 2014

More like common nonsense.

 

[PinSeeker]

So you believe that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron...

Yes, from heaven. What "ruling with a rod of iron" means would probably be a point of contention between us. And, you don't understand ~ or you may; if you do, you reject ~ the idea of the now and the not yet.

and yet tolerates and winks at the evil of the world as the ruling King!

Hmmm, well "tolerates" and/or "winks" or anything like that is quite ridiculous; I would (again) use Paul's words and say that the unrighteous He has given up to their own dishonorable passions, has given them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done (Romans 1) and is enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9). And again, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8). That He endures these "vessels of wrath" does not mean he "tolerates" or "winks" at their sinful actions... or ours, for that matter; there are most certainly consequences for sin in this life (and the age to come, of course; each will be judged according to what he has done... Romans 2:6-7, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 22:12).

And as I said, I think you have a very wrong idea of what you think Jesus's rule ~ yes, even with a rod of iron ~ should look like, or even does look like. Very, very similar to the reason most ethnic Jews of Jesus's day didn't and even today do not recognize Him as God's Messiah,

so you believe this verse is historic:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"Historic" as in already done/fulfilled? No. But certain to happen, certainly... <smile>

So you believe the seven seals have already been opened.

No. <smile>

You also believe the seven trumpets have already sounded.

No. <smile>

You believe the two witnesses have already come and gone, gave their testimony, were killed and rose and ascended to heaven and the earthquake shook Jerusalem then.

Not gone... <smile> They will never pass away, or leave, even. <smile> Quite obviously, I disagree with your ideas concerning the two witnesses. <smile>

You also believe Jesus is letting Satan roam freely in His kingdom devouring souls and deceiving people.

Nope, He is plundering Satan's house, as Satan is currently bound (Matthew 12), meaning his power to influence/deceive the nations (Revelation 20) is suppressed; he is no longer able to do that as he once could and did.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Were Peter an Paul mistaken?

Absolutely not; these are great exhortations to individual believers. Satan and his minions are still able to exert influence on individuals, even believers, from his "prison," but the present spread of the Gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of this restriction on Satan’s power to deceive the nations.

...do you really think the King of Kings would allow Satan and His armies to roam freely in his kngdom?

No. See above.

Cannot your concept of Jesus drive out the weaker enemy from HIs kingdom and not harm His citizens?

Hmmm, yes, of course, and that's happening, though not all at once, as you think it should be. I mean, yeah, I really wish Jesus would just come on back now, too... <smile> ...but that's not the Father's plan, obviously... <smile> Which takes us back to the first thing I said in this post, that I think you have a very wrong idea of what you think Jesus's rule ~ yes, even with a rod of iron ~ should look like. Very, very similar to the reason most ethnic Jews of Jesus's day didn't and even today do not recognize Him as God's Messiah,

Ephesians 6:11-17...

Amen and amen.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I believe YOU fail to understand that. You take other scripture out of context which causes contradictions in scripture. You say you take Revelation 19:17-18, but you clearly do not.

You love to accuse but fail to provide any support for your accusations. No the context provides who "the all" is.

Zechariah 13 is not about Armageddon. Don't try to make the whole Bible about the future. Your hyperfuturism does you no favors.

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Jesus quoted this verse in relation to His first coming, not the second. You're not doing your due diligence to look at the context of scripture.

Sorry but you are simply wrong!

If you knew sentence, paragraph construction, you would know that verse 8 is introducing a new thought! Also you cannot find any point in history when 2/3 of Jews were killed. the worst was the Nazi holocaust and that only killed 1/3 of Jews. sorry but in your haste to accuse you overlooked basic facts.

They will not mourn when He comes. It will be too late for that. They will wail in fear! You are misinterpreting everything.

These verses show the context of Matthew 24:29-31...

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Take that up with God! You even posted that at His return every eye sees and the tribes mourn! If it doesn't mean what it says, is it saying anything at all?

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the beginning of the tribulation period or the 70th week of Daniel. Once again you fail to recognize that day (hemera) also is translated as time or age, though day is its common usage. We know it is not the Day the Lord returns for the trumpets and bowls still have to occur.

Again, you miss the context and you also miss the symbolism. It's not talking about a literal place on earth called Armageddon. Do you think Babylon is a literal place on earth called Babylon? Do you think Magog in Revelation 20:8 is a literal place on earth even though it's described in direct relation to the "ethnos" in the four quarters of the earth?

There is a literal place on earth called Armageddon (har megiddo) it is the mount overlooking the valley of Jezreel, I was there! There is a place called Babylon, you can look it up on google earth

No. You are ignoring the text. It first talks about the kings, generals, and the mighty being destroyed but then it expands to say that "all people, free and slave, great and small." are destroyed, which you try to change to make it say what you want it to say. We are given an added detail there that isn't included in the Revelation 16 passages and you won't accept that because you force the Revelation 19 passage to agree with your false interpretation of the Revelation 16 passage instead of reconciling the two together.

Wrong again, where are the women? where are the children? If we applied your woodenly literal use of all in context then no women and children are involved and they survive. And if this was a global destruction, why would god tell the birds to gather together? they could feast on all teh continents if Jesus killed everybody ev erywhere!

Also given teh enormous amount of prophecy elsewhere we know that people survive and enter teh millennial kingdom. People farm and even animals survive!
.

As for the REv. 20:8 use of Magog, I cannot speak with absolute certainty. but i know that the Ezekiel 38-39 mention is modern Russia.

LOL. No, YOU need to understand the context for the word all and stop trying to change it to mean what you want it to mean.

Sorry but you are now being woodenly literal and fail to understand the word all also means everyone of a particular group! Go speak to an English teacher and learn things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You love to accuse but fail to provide any support for your accusations. No the context provides who "the all" is.

You clearly have no understanding of context whatsoever. You prove that repeatedly

Sorry but you are simply wrong!

If you knew sentence, paragraph construction, you would know that verse 8 is introducing a new thought!

This is what you do. You are completely dishonest with scripture. When I prove your wrong about something, you come up with something new to try to keep your doctrine afloat. I guarantee that you thought verse 7 was about the second coming until I corrected you and now you're trying to say that the subject changes in the next verse. How convenient. I can't take you seriously.

Also you cannot find any point in history when 2/3 of Jews were killed. the worst was the Nazi holocaust and that only killed 1/3 of Jews. sorry but in your haste to accuse you overlooked basic facts.

That is not meant to be taken literally, but since you take everything literally, I know I can't ever convince you of that. You probably think Zechariah 4 is about literally candlestick and bowls and lamps.

Take that up with God! You even posted that at His return every eye sees and the tribes mourn! If it doesn't mean what it says, is it saying anything at all?

They will fail in fear, not mourn. As Revelation 6:12-17 shows.

As for the REv. 20:8 use of Magog, I cannot speak with absolute certainty. but i know that the Ezekiel 38-39 mention is modern Russia.

Not that we needed any more proof, but this is more proof to show your lack of attention to detail and how flawed your litera interpretive approach really is.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In verse 8, "Gog and Magog" are used as a symbolic reference to "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". So, it's clearly not referring to the literal Magog there. It's symbolically talking about all unbelievers being like the wicked people of ancient Magog. The reference to Babylon in Revelation is not talking about literal Babylon, either. Your literal method of interpreting a book like Revelation doesn't work.

Sorry but you are now being woodenly literal

LOL! What an incredibly hypocritical thing for you to say by the person who uses a woodenly literal hermeneutic. Only when it's convenient, though, apparently.

and fail to understand the word all also means everyone of a particular group! Go speak to an English teacher and learn things.

LOL. You think the Bible, written in Hebrew and Greek, requires talking to an English teacher to learn it. That says it all about you.

 

[Douggg]

You are completely dishonest with scripture.

I can't take you seriously

LOL!

Your standard catch phrases, repeated over and over, designed to degrade the other poster and their content.

You are violating the forum rules...

"Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Christianity Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, from heaven. What "ruling with a rod of iron" means would probably be a point of contention between us. And, you don't understand ~ or you may; if you do, you reject ~ the idea of the now and the not yet.

Well as they are defined I fully understand them.

This is what you do. You are completely dishonest with scripture. When I prove your wrong about something, you come up with something new to try to keep your doctrine afloat. I guarantee that you thought verse 7 was about the second coming until I corrected you and now you're trying to say that the subject changes in the next verse. How convenient. I can't take you seriously.

You accuse but do not prove. And I do not know which verse 7 you are talking about off the top of my head. I have over 12 responses to do, so I have little time to search out old posts.

Hmmm, well "tolerates" and/or "winks" or anything like that is quite ridiculous; I would (again) use Paul's words and say that the unrighteous He has given up to their own dishonorable passions, has given them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done (Romans 1) and is enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9). And again, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8). That He endures these "vessels of wrath" does not mean he "tolerates" or "winks" at their sinful actions... or ours, for that matter; there are most certainly consequences for sin in this life (and the age to come, of course; each will be judged according to what he has done... Romans 2:6-7, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 22:12).

And as I said, I think you have a very wrong idea of what you think Jesus's rule ~ yes, even with a rod of iron ~ should look like, or even does look like. Very, very similar to the reason most ethnic Jews of Jesus's day didn't and even today do not recognize Him as God's Messiah,

Well pray tell, define what ruling with a ROD OF IRON MEANS IF YOU THINK I AM SO IGNORANT.

"Historic" as in already done/fulfilled? No. But certain to happen, certainly... <smile>

So then you do not believe Jesus is actively ruling on earth now?

Hmmm, well "tolerates" and/or "winks" or anything like that is quite ridiculous; I would (again) use Paul's words and say that the unrighteous He has given up to their own dishonorable passions, has given them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done (Romans 1) and is enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9). And again, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8). That He endures these "vessels of wrath" does not mean he "tolerates" or "winks" at their sinful actions... or ours, for that matter; there are most certainly consequences for sin in this life (and the age to come, of course; each will be judged according to what he has done... Romans 2:6-7, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 22:12).

Well if jesus hates sin, and His kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness and Jesus as Scripture says, why does He allow evil in His kingdom that you say He is actively ruling over now.

No. <smile>

Well I havewn't a clue then as to what you believe. You seem to be amillennial, preterist and dispensational all at once. If Jesus is ruling on teh earth now as you say- how have the seals, trumpets and bowls not happened yet.

Absolutely not; these are great exhortations to individual believers. Satan and his minions are still able to exert influence on individuals, even believers, from his "prison," but the present spread of the Gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of this restriction on Satan’s power to deceive the nations.

So you believe Stan is abyssed now and that REv. 20 is fulfilled?

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

But you disagree with this verse when you say Satan still exerts influence on this earth. The Bible says differently.

If the church spreading the gospel is restricting his power why do Paul and Peter call him the god of this world and presently ruling and a roaring lion roaming if he is imprisoned?

No. See above.

Then if you believe the Bible as written, then Satan must have been abyssed sometime after the life of Peter and Paul for they said he was roaming the earth looking to devour and deceive. Can you point to the time he was abyssed so that he could not deceive the earth for 1000 years?

Hmmm, yes, of course, and that's happening, though not all at once, as you think it should be. I mean, yeah, I really wish Jesus would just come on back now, too... <smile> ...but that's not the Father's plan, obviously... <smile> Which takes us back to the first thing I said in this post, that I think you have a very wrong idea of what you think Jesus's rule ~ yes, even with a rod of iron ~ should look like. Very, very similar to the reason most ethnic Jews of Jesus's day didn't and even today do not recognize Him as God's Messiah,

Well then we await your defining for us what Jesus' kingdom on earth ruling with a rod of iron actually looks like.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You clearly have no understanding of context whatsoever. You prove that repeatedly

Once again accusations without proof. Just empty rhetoric.

That is not meant to be taken literally, but since you take everything literally, I know I can't ever convince you of that. You probably think Zechariah 4 is about literally candlestick and bowls and lamps.

And you know this is not to be taken literally but allegorically how? Instead of Zech 4, please show all of us why this simple passage that makes perfect sense chould be taken allegorically. And how do you know your allegorical opinion is the correct one?

They will fail in fear, not mourn. As Revelation 6:12-17 shows.

First define what you mean by fear. Second are you saying this passage is describing the physical return of Jesus to earth?

Not that we needed any more proof, but this is more proof to show your lack of attention to detail and how flawed your litera interpretive approach really is.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In verse 8, "Gog and Magog" are used as a symbolic reference to "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". So, it's clearly not referring to the literal Magog there. It's symbolically talking about all unbelievers being like the wicked people of ancient Magog. The reference to Babylon in Revelation is not talking about literal Babylon, either. Your literal method of interpreting a book like Revelation doesn't work.

If it is symbolic, why does God then say the four corners of the earth? Also Gog is a title not a land area, while magog refers to land.

Gog is like king, emperor, cesar, lord, satrap etc.etc.

YOu should study a little bit. As I said I ma not going to take a firm stand on Gog and Magog in Rev. 20 simply because there is no definitive answer in Scripture. You may be right, but if I were you , I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

LOL! What an incredibly hypocritical thing for you to say by the person who uses a woodenly literal hermeneutic. Only when it's convenient, though, apparently.

Lying doesn't become you. I have repeatedly told you how I view Scripture and you still wish to intentionally lie about me and my position. That is porr form. YOu seem more intent on attacking without proof then discussing differences.

LOL. You think the Bible, written in Hebrew and Greek, requires talking to an English teacher to learn it. That says it all about you.

You love to find any sliver to attack a person don't you? You do not even understand the bible in english. YOu consistently practioce the " I know what teh Bible says, but this is what it really means" silliness. If you cannot discuss with attacking then have the last word and let us end this unprofitable mess.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well as they are defined I fully understand them.

Yes, as you define them, you understand them. That's circular... <smile> ...but okay.

Well pray tell, define what ruling with a ROD OF IRON MEANS IF YOU THINK I AM SO IGNORANT.

I don't think you're ignorant, Ronald. <smile> You know, it's fine to discuss these things, but I think there's absolutely no justification for shouting at each other or really arguing. Don't you?

So then you do not believe Jesus is actively ruling on earth now?

Not on earth, no; I've been very clear about that.

Well if jesus hates sin, and His kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness and Jesus as Scripture says, why does He allow evil in His kingdom that you say He is actively ruling over now.

I have answered this. As I said in my last post, "I would (again) use Paul's words and say that the unrighteous He has given up to their own dishonorable passions, has given them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done (Romans 1) and is enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9). And again, He is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8). He is indeed ruling, but it just doesn't look like what we want it to look like... yet. <smile>

You seem to be amillennial, preterist and dispensational all at once.

Pardon me while I laugh out loud at this comment... <smile>

If Jesus is ruling on the earth now as you say- how have the seals, trumpets and bowls not happened yet.

Ah, well, Ronald, without going deeper on this, I'll just make three comments about the seals, trumpets, and bowls:

1. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequential. Now, in saying that, let me clarify that I don't mean that the second seal doesn't follow the first seal, or the fourth bowl doesn't follow the third bowl (that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequential within themselves). Rather, I do mean that the seven trumpets don't sequentially follow the seven seals, and the seven bowls don't sequentially follow the seven trumpets. <smile> And to this point, the trumpets form the second cycle out of several (seven) that depict God’s rule over history. Like the trumpets used in the battle of Jericho (Joshua 6), these trumpets lead up to the fall of the worldly city (11:13), and in the seventh trumpet the complete victory of God arrives. The seven seals began with announcements of riders commissioned to bring calamities. The seven trumpets, by contrast, contain vivid descriptions of the calamities themselves.
2. Regarding the seals, trumpets, and bowls in and of themselves, not all of them have happened yet. <smile>
3. Ah, well third, rather than a comment, I would encourage you to watch (listen to) the following sermon... from yesterday, September 21, 2024, coincidentally: Seven Seals (Revelation 6-8). The sermon starts at about the 41-minute mark; of particular relevance to this conversation is from the 46-minute mark to just after the 52-minute mark.

So you believe Stan is abyssed now...

Yes. Satan's power to deceive the nations ~ which he never would have had if God had not given him the power/ability to do this ~ has indeed been taken away (by God, of course)I've said this before, but, well, again, as Jesus says in Matthew 12, "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless He first binds the strong man? Then indeed He may plunder his house" (Matthew 12:28-29).

and that REv. 20 is fulfilled?

Ahhhh, Revelation 20. <smile> Well, as I have said many times... not yet. <smile> But even that is not a full answer. To put it briefly, I would say ~ as I have before ~ that verses 1 through 3 have been fulfilled (see directly above), verses 4 through 6 are being fulfilled progressively now, and the events of verses 7 through 15 are yet to come (but may be very near, even by our standards). And I would add that what is happening in verses 4 through 6 is concurrent with most (verses 1 through 11) of Revelation 6.

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

But you disagree with this verse when you say Satan still exerts influence on this earth.

Nope. See above.

The Bible says differently.

I certainly get... <smile> ...that you think so.

If the church spreading the gospel is restricting his power...

Ah, that's not what I said, Ronald. The Gospel being spread to the nations is a result of the restriction of his power to deceive the nations; I've been crystal clear on that.

why do Paul and Peter call him the god of this world and presently ruling and a roaring lion roaming if he is imprisoned?

Yeah, see above. Satan's influence is a very present reality.

Can you point to the time he was abyssed so that he could not deceive the earth for 1000 years?

See above. With regard to Revelation 20, I say (again) that we should see the "angel coming down from heaven, holding in His hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain..." Who "...seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him" as Jesus in His first coming and His earthly ministry just over two millennia ago. And this is what prompts, just prior to His return to heaven in Matthew 28:19-20, His mandate to all of us to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)."

Well then we await your defining for us what Jesus' kingdom on earth ruling with a rod of iron actually looks like.

Await no longer. <smile> See above. <smile> Again, His rule may not look like we want it to look yet, but it will. One great day, there will be no more sin. Death and sin will be no more, every tear will be wiped from our eyes, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your standard catch phrases, repeated over and over, designed to degrade the other poster and their content.

You are violating the forum rules...

"Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Christianity Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand."

Whatever. When someone is dishonest like you are, I will call it out every time. I'm pretty sure lying is against forum rules, too. You lie about what the word generation means in Matthew 24:34 by making up your own definition of the word that you can't find in any Bible dictionary or regular dictionary and that's unacceptable. And that's the kind of thing you do here. You just don't like it when your dishonest ways are exposed. Too bad.

I'm not going to change how I talk to you, Douggg, so if you don't like it, just ignore me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again accusations without proof. Just empty rhetoric.

Look in the mirror.

First define what you mean by fear. Second are you saying this passage is describing the physical return of Jesus to earth?

Did you not read the passage (Rev 6:12-17)? Do I really need to spell it out to you. It describes people hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, but you don't know what I mean by fear? Obviously, it's talking about people fearing for their lives. Do you not think that passage lines up with Matthew 24:29-31? The similarities are very obvious.

If it is symbolic, why does God then say the four corners of the earth? Also Gog is a title not a land area, while magog refers to land.

Gog is like king, emperor, cesar, lord, satrap etc.etc.

Exactly. That passage is equating the "ethnos" in the four corners of the earth with "Gog, and Magog". Do you think Magog is the four corners of the earth? Is that what you see in Ezekiel 38-39 where it mentions Magog? To me, it's clearly symbolically referring to what things will be like on the entire earth at that time it's depicting there in Revelation 20:7-9. It will be like it was in ancient Magog throughout the earth at that time. The reference to Gog and Magog symbolically represents all that opposes God on earth in that passage. You clearly are lacking the ability to discern the difference between literal and symbolic text.

YOu should study a little bit.

I have studied these things a lot. Probably just as much as you. So, you saying this to me means nothing.

As I said I ma not going to take a firm stand on Gog and Magog in Rev. 20 simply because there is no definitive answer in Scripture. You may be right, but if I were you , I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

I would. Your lack of taking a stance on this says it all about you. You'd prefer to just assume it agrees with your doctrine instead of taking a closer look at it to see what it means.

Lying doesn't become you. I have repeatedly told you how I view Scripture and you still wish to intentionally lie about me and my position. That is porr form. YOu seem more intent on attacking without proof then discussing differences.

I'm not lying. You do take a very literal approach to scripture. That is a fact. You assume that any given verse is literal unless something explicitly indicates otherwise. Are you denying this? It's so clearly true.

You love to find any sliver to attack a person don't you? You do not even understand the bible in english. YOu consistently practioce the " I know what teh Bible says, but this is what it really means" silliness. If you cannot discuss with attacking then have the last word and let us end this unprofitable mess.

This is what you do when you have no argument. You complain about things getting personal. You know you have weak arguments, so I don't blame you for wanting to come up with an excuse to get out of the discussion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, as you define them, you understand them. That's circular... <smile> ...but okay.

Once again an accusation without evidence. (sad face)

I don't think you're ignorant, Ronald. <smile> You know, it's fine to discuss these things, but I think there's absolutely no justification for shouting at each other or really arguing. Don't you?

Well as I am not shouting or arguing Your comment is irrelevant.

I have been discussing and waiting for you to back up your accusations against me with biblical proof

Not on earth, no; I've been very clear about that.

Is He ruling HIs Father? Is He seated on His Fathers throne?

Pardon me while I laugh out loud at this comment... <smile>

Well you have a very fluid eschatology

and it appears you blend portions of all three. Just sayin'

1. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequential. Now, in saying that, let me clarify that I don't mean that the second seal doesn't follow the first seal, or the fourth bowl doesn't follow the third bowl (that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequential within themselves). Rather, I do mean that the seven trumpets don't sequentially follow the seven seals, and the seven bowls don't sequentially follow the seven trumpets. <smile> And to this point, the trumpets form the second cycle out of several (seven) that depict God’s rule over history. Like the trumpets used in the battle of Jericho (Joshua 6), these trumpets lead up to the fall of the worldly city (11:13), and in the seventh trumpet the complete victory of God arrives. The seven seals began with announcements of riders commissioned to bring calamities. The seven trumpets, by contrast, contain vivid descriptions of the calamities themselves.
2. Regarding the seals, trumpets, and bowls in and of themselves, not all of them have happened yet. <smile>
3. Ah, well third, rather than a comment, I would encourage you to watch (listen to) the following sermon... from yesterday, September 21, 2024, coincidentally: Seven Seals (Revelation 6-8). The sermon starts at about the 41-minute mark; of particular relevance to this conversation is from the 46-minute mark to just after the 52-minute mark.

Then why does the seventh seal introduce the seven trumpets and then after teh seven trumpewts sound the seven bowls are revealed and these are claaed the last of the judgments? Seems like you are contradicting god. Butr I await for you to give a biblical explanation of why the seals bowls and trumpet's are not sequential as they are written.

So which of the seal's bowls and trumpets have happened so far and can you point to the dates they occurred here on earth?

Yes. Satan's power to deceive the nations ~ which he never would have had if God had not given him the power/ability to do this ~ has indeed been taken away (by God, of course)I've said this before, but, well, again, as Jesus says in Matthew 12, "...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless He first binds the strong man? Then indeed He may plunder his house" (Matthew 12:28-29).

,So you believe Paul and Peter are in error then.

Ephesians 6:12-16

King James Version

​

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

King James Version

​

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So also we are in the thousand year period of revelation also!

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Ahhhh, Revelation 20. <smile> Well, as I have said many times... not yet. <smile> But even that is not a full answer. To put it briefly, I would say ~ as I have before ~ that verses 1 through 3 have been fulfilled (see directly above), verses 4 through 6 are being fulfilled progressively now, and the events of verses 7 through 15 are yet to come (but may be very near, even by our standards). And I would add that what is happening in verses 4 through 6 is concurrent with most (verses 1 through 11) of Revelation 6.

Easy to say, tough to prove. So the first resurrection has already happened and those who did not take the mark and were beheaded are resurrected and reigning with Jesus!

Easy to say. Proving it is another matter.

Ah, that's not what I said, Ronald. The Gospel being spread to the nations is a result of the restriction of his power to deceive the nations; I've been crystal clear on that.

Please show me where the bible says Satans power is restricted.

I only see a verse where Satan cannot deceive the nations when he is abyssed. Not restricted but incapable of deceiving.

Yeah, see above. Satan's influence is a very present reality.

But you said his power is restricted and He is in chains in darkness. Do you mean He still exerts powerful influence from the darkness of the abyss?

Await no longer. <smile> See above. <smile> Again, His rule may not look like we want it to look yet, but it will. One great day, there will be no more sin. Death and sin will be no more, every tear will be wiped from our eyes, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

I agree. That will happen when He physically returns and establishes His throne here on earth.

Until then He does not rule the earth yet!

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Unless of course you believe that teh seventh trumpet has already sounded. If so when did that hapeen according to you?

 

[PinSeeker]

Once again an accusation without evidence. (sad face)

I'm not accusing you of anything, Ronald. All I said was, yes, as you yourself define these terms, you understand them. Which, by definition, is circular reasoning. It is what it is.

Well as I am not shouting or arguing Your comment is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant at all, nor am I mistaken regarding your shouting and arguing. Your direct quote was ~ and I am typing this in the exact way you typed them:

"Well pray tell, define what ruling with a ROD OF IRON MEANS IF YOU THINK I AM SO IGNORANT."​

All caps, as you know, Ronald, is "shouting." And the tone of your rhetoric is unmistakeable. Again, it is what it is, or rather, was what it was.

I have been discussing and waiting for you to back up your accusations against me with biblical proof

And I've told you that I haven't accused you of anything. I have offered plenty of biblical references to back up my points, though. Ah, it seems you're getting very defensive, which... if so, would say a lot more thant what you are actually saying... <smile>

Is He ruling HIs Father?

Of course not. What do you think it means, Ronald, for Jesus to be "seated at the right hand of the Father"? And I'll just say, that means far, far more than merely that Jesus is sitting beside the Father on His right rather than His left...

Is He seated on His Fathers throne?

Yes.

Well you have a very fluid eschatology

and it appears you blend portions of all three.

Just sayin'

Okay, well, stop. <smile> Because what you're "sayin'" it totally baseless. <smile>

Then why does the seventh seal introduce the seven trumpets and then after the seven trumpets sound the seven bowls are revealed and these are claaed the last of the judgments?

Can the not the same events be described three different ways, using different imagery, Ronald? Yes, they can... As I said, the seven trumpets don't sequentially follow the seven seals, and the seven bowls don't sequentially follow the seven trumpets. <smile> The seven seals began with announcements of riders commissioned to bring calamities. The seven trumpets, by contrast, contain vivid descriptions of the calamities themselves. Watch the video I linked to. It's just eight minutes (if you want to watch just the part I directed you to; surely you can spare eight minutes... <smile>). Here, I'll link it again... this is from this past Sunday, September 21, 2024: Seven Seals (Revelation 6). The sermon starts at about the 41-minute mark; of particular relevance to this conversation is from the 46-minute mark to just after the 52-minute mark.

Seems like you are contradicting god.

To you, yes, I'm well aware of that <smile> Watch the video above, Ronald. <smile>

But I await for you to give a biblical explanation of why the seals bowls and trumpet's are not sequential as they are written.

Watch the video. <smile>

So which of the seal's bowls and trumpets have happened so far and can you point to the dates they occurred here on earth?

Watch the video. <smile>

,So you believe Paul and Peter are in error then.

<sigh>

So also we are in the thousand year period of revelation...

Please show me where the bible says Satans power is restricted.

Back to Matthew 12:28-29 (again), and again, this is Jesus saying this: "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."

I only see a verse where Satan cannot deceive the nations when he is abyssed. Not restricted but incapable of deceiving.

Right, deceiving the nations, Ronald. He cannot deceive the nations as he once did. He will be able to again for a short time, but for now ~ since the coming of Jesus ~ he cannot. And in this sense, he is "abyssed."

But you said his power is restricted and He is in chains in darkness. Do you mean He still exerts powerful influence from the darkness of the abyss?

<sigh> Ronald. Ronald, Ronald, Ronald. Open thy mind... <smile> Actually... climb out of that abyss you're in... <smile>

...He does not rule the earth yet!

<sigh> Have we no king, Ronald? We do...

Unless of course you believe that teh seventh trumpet has already sounded.

Nope. Okay, pay close attention to this: None of the sevenths have happened yet. <smile> Watch the video, Ronald. <smile>

Grace and peace to youl

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Look in the mirror.

You need a snappier comeback

Did you not read the passage (Rev 6:12-17)? Do I really need to spell it out to you. It describes people hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, but you don't know what I mean by fear? Obviously, it's talking about people fearing for their lives. Do you not think that passage lines up with Matthew 24:29-31? The similarities are very obvious.

Well given the wide range of definitions people hold to words on this forum, I just wanted to make sure we were in agreement.

Yes lots of similarities, but also lots of differences. Mainly the seventh seal introduces trhe seven trumpets and then the seven bowls. Jesus doesn'r return to inflict the world with these judgments.

Exactly. That passage is equating the "ethnos" in the four corners of the earth with "Gog, and Magog". Do you think Magog is the four corners of the earth? Is that what you see in Ezekiel 38-39 where it mentions Magog? To me, it's clearly symbolically referring to what things will be like on the entire earth at that time it's depicting there in Revelation 20:7-9. It will be like it was in ancient Magog throughout the earth at that time. The reference to Gog and Magog symbolically represents all that opposes God on earth in that passage. You clearly are lacking the ability to discern the difference between literal and symbolic text.

YOu need to read the Ez. 38-39 passages side by side with REv. 20 and see the vast enormous differences in both attacks on Israel. Magog, Lub, Put, Persia, Gomer can all be traced historically to nations that still exist. God is a title like Cesar, King, Emperor etc.

The gog and Magog in Rev. 20 by all rules appear to be different than the ones mentioned in Ez. they are spearated by at least 1010 1/2 years.

I have studied these things a lot. Probably just as much as you. So, you saying this to me means nothing.

Well I have studied this for forty years, have read many of the theologies surrounding Eschatology, taught it in churches in bible Institutes and Bible college. At one time I had close to fifty books on the various eschatologies

I would. Your lack of taking a stance on this says it all about you. You'd prefer to just assume it agrees with your doctrine instead of taking a closer look at it to see what it means.

Well seeing it is future and takes place after the 1000 year kingdom, I will not pretend to read the future or to force it to mean the same thing as Ez. 38-39, especially when the results are grossly different. I do not have a clue wht you think it says about me nor do I really care.

'm not lying. You do take a very literal approach to scripture. That is a fact. You assume that any given verse is literal unless something explicitly indicates otherwise. Are you denying this? It's so clearly true.

Not in the least. God knows Grammar. He did not write teh Bible in riddles for HIs believers to have to rely on people who have gotten "special revelations" as to the secret meanings of passages. IN other words you are one who follows th epath of " I know what is written, but this is what it really means".

My literal hermeneutic takes into account language, euphemisms, symbolism, visions and apocalyptic language. As is written, if theplain sense of Scripture makes perfect snese, seek no other sense.

YOu rely on extra biblical means to "understand" what passages really mean because you do not accept what is written as literal in many many passages that should be taken literally.

 

[PinSeeker]

My literal hermeneutic takes into account language, euphemisms, symbolism, visions and apocalyptic language.

It does not. Or, at least far, far less than it should. <smile>

As is written, if the plain sense of Scripture makes perfect sense, seek no other sense.

Nobody's saying what you think "doesn't make sense," really, Ronald. But regarding just about anything, it is very possible for something to make sense and but still be... very wrong.

Grace and peace to you.

You rely on extra biblical means to "understand" what passages really mean...

Not true at all. For the most part, other passages actually in the Bible are very informative; thus, we say things like, "God is His own arbiter" and "Scripture interprets Scripture." At any rate, anyone labeling anything "extra biblical" does not make it the case.

...you do not accept what is written as literal in many many passages that should be taken literally.

Ronald, in Revelation ~ and other parts of the Bible as well, like Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Matthew, and James (the tongue is flesh, not an actual flame/fire) ~ symbols are used to represent things and sometimes to describe the effect of things that are very literal. Even you have to acknowledge this, even starting with something as basic as the fact that Satan is not really a dragon or a beast. So what you're railing against you actually do, too, which, as I said, is... well, you know. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not accusing you of anything, Ronald. All I said was, yes, as you yourself define these terms, you understand them. Which, by definition, is circular reasoning. It is what it is.

And you are using terms as you understand them- so you are using circular reasoning. But this is the definition of circular reasoning:

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.

And no I do not define the terms. I accept teh definitions as they were used by the original writers.

But you have accussed me of taking verses out of context and now redefining terms as I define them- Where is your proof?

It's not irrelevant at all, nor am I mistaken regarding your shouting and arguing. Your direct quote was ~ and I am typing this in the exact way you typed them:

"Well pray tell, define what ruling with a ROD OF IRON MEANS IF YOU THINK I AM SO IGNORANT."
All caps, as you know, Ronald, is "shouting." And the tone of your rhetoric is unmistakeable. Again, it is what it is, or rather, was what it was.

Well asw I was not given that memo- I reject it. I use the method of all caps when I am stressing something not shouting. So you need to accept that. So yes you are mistaken.

And I've told you that I haven't accused you of anything. I have offered plenty of biblical references to back up my points, though. Ah, it seems you're getting very defensive, which... if so, would say a lot more thant what you are actually saying... <smile>

Not really YOu have a dearth of scriptural references and a 0 batting average when you say I redefine and take verses out of context.

Of course not. What do you think it means, Ronald, for Jesus to be "seated at the right hand of the Father"? And I'll just say, that means far, far more than merely that Jesus is sitting beside the Father on His right rather than His left...

Just making sure. For you say He is the ruler of heaven right now.

Yes.

So to you Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and Has moved the Father off His throne and sitting there, so where is the Father?

Right, deceiving the nations, Ronald. He cannot deceive the nations as he once did. He will be able to again for a short time, but for now ~ since the coming of Jesus ~ he cannot. And in this sense, he is "abyssed."

Can you show me the verse which says as he once did?

I only see this verse:
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It says "no more" but you say not as he once did, so that means he is deceiving in a different way.

Too bad the original inspired authors did not have your insight. For Satan to be abyssed meant He was cast into the bottomless pit not just abyssed "in a sense". Now you sound like a Jehovah's witness.

So you believe we are now in the millennial earth as massively described in the OT? WOW? For us living in the millennial reign and satan abyssed "in a sense" mankind is surely devoted to much evil

<sigh> Ronald. Ronald, Ronald, Ronald. Open thy mind... <smile> Actually... climb out of that abyss you're in... <smile>

Well when one opens their mind- all sorts of evil floods in! Sorry but I did not get teh allegorical dictionary in th email so I could learn what all the "real meanings" the writers of Scripture secretly meant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need a snappier comeback

Take a selfie.

Yes lots of similarities, but also lots of differences. Mainly the seventh seal introduces trhe seven trumpets and then the seven bowls. Jesus doesn'r return to inflict the world with these judgments.

Lots of differences between Matthew 24:29-30 and Rev 6:12-17? No, not really.

YOu need to read the Ez. 38-39 passages side by side with REv. 20 and see the vast enormous differences in both attacks on Israel. Magog, Lub, Put, Persia, Gomer can all be traced historically to nations that still exist. God is a title like Cesar, King, Emperor etc.

The gog and Magog in Rev. 20 by all rules appear to be different than the ones mentioned in Ez. they are spearated by at least 1010 1/2 years.

I never said those passages are about the same thing, so I'm not sure why you're saying this to me.

Well I have studied this for forty years, have read many of the theologies surrounding Eschatology, taught it in churches in bible Institutes and Bible college. At one time I had close to fifty books on the various eschatologies

Is that supposed to mean anything to me? It doesn't. if you don't teach the truth, what good is that? The amount of time you have studied does not determine your level of understanding of the truth.

Well seeing it is future and takes place after the 1000 year kingdom, I will not pretend to read the future or to force it to mean the same thing as Ez. 38-39, especially when the results are grossly different. I do not have a clue wht you think it says about me nor do I really care.

I'd love to know what made you think I was saying that Revelation 20:7-9 is the same thing as Ezekiel 38-39 when I never said that.

Not in the least. God knows Grammar. He did not write teh Bible in riddles for HIs believers to have to rely on people who have gotten "special revelations" as to the secret meanings of passages. IN other words you are one who follows th epath of " I know what is written, but this is what it really means".

This is just ridiculous. It's not all literal, so acting as if it's all spelled out for us is ludicrous. It's not. Some is symbolic, some poetic, some metaphorical, some Apocalyptic, some hyperbolic and so on. So, to say we have to go by what is written as it is written is another way of saying we have to assume it's all literal unless it treats us like little children and explicitly tells us otherwise. That's a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture.

My literal hermeneutic takes into account language, euphemisms, symbolism, visions and apocalyptic language. As is written, if theplain sense of Scripture makes perfect snese, seek no other sense.

We don't all agree on what makes perfect sense, though. You might think something makes perfect sense if taken literally, and I may not. And vice versa. I take many scriptures literally that you don't take literally or don't take as literally as I do. My doctrine is based primarily on clear, straightforward, literal scriptures, as I have shown you before. The hermeneutic you use is useless as far as I'm concerned and you don't even use it consistently, anyway. We need discernment from the Holy Spirit to understand more difficult passages nd that's a fact whether you acknowledge it or not (1 Cor 2:9-16).

YOu rely on extra biblical means to "understand" what passages really mean because you do not accept what is written as literal in many many passages that should be taken literally.

That's your opinion only which means nothing to me.