The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

@uncle silas
If you are not here to engage in the subject, just to refute it and be insulting, I ask you to go elsewhere and start your own thread on the subject thank you.

 

[uncle silas]

I was talking about Rom 8:1 and what follows from it (which follows on from Romans 7 and is the solution to the battle with sin), as well as other verses which speak to walking in the Spirit....and it is THROUGH the Spirit that we are to mortify the deeds of the flesh:

Gal 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

ok so you are addressing the difference between the old way of the letter and the new way of the Spirit.....and I agree that we are to serve in the new way of the Spirit......which I believe is according to those verses above. And all the Law is fulfilled in the Law of love...love of God and love of neighbour...His love shed abroad in our hearts by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit nudges and guides us according to the conscience of our new/renewed inner man which is informed by the Spirit and been instructed/taught by the word of God. This is why Paul referred elsewhere to "you who are spiritual" when he was telling them to "restore such a one". He was apparently talking to those who were no longer carnal and in the flesh, but were in the spirit and spiritually mature (however one gets to that place).

Here I believe is one place where the OT instructs us to be/walk in the Spirit: "Be STILL and know that I am God".

As you brought up initially the subject of cessationalists I will give you a testimony. At the age of ten, when we started going to a non cessationalist church I responded to an altar call. The first thing I noticed that was different about me was, I became conscious of my sin/shortcomings before God in a most profound way(even at that age) And, as it was relentlessly preached how holy a life we must live, I set out to live a life without sin. God’s commands must be obeyed-right? No one gets a licence to sin.

The problem was, I could not live sin free, I had no problem not committing murder, adultery, stealing, taking the Lord’s name in vain, but I could not perfectly obey on the inside. Sin is sin, right, we cannot water it down for convenience. I started to become unhappy because I could not live up to what was preached, perfection constantly eluded me. I started to fear hell, due to my imperfections, the more I feared them the worse I got. How can I say I ended up? Please read Rom7:7-11 KJV. That is my testimony, word for word, not just Paul’s of his life as a pharisee.

Strange isn’t it, I went to a non cessationist church, strove to follow what was preached, and ended up trying to attain to heaven as Saul the pharisee did. And yet, the church prided itself it was the leading light of biblical truth in the town and stood full square on the entirety of scripture.

I left church for a while, but fortunately for me, someone asked me to read a book, it was about Paul’s message of grace. So much of what he wrote I had never heard preached in the evangelical church of my youth. Strange, as they said they stood full square on the bible. Anyway, by following Paul’s message the sin quickly lessened, at the evangelical church it just got worse.

 

[Hepzibah]

@uncle silas

Look, I am sorry you had such a bad church experience. They were clearly legalists and not preaching the true gospel. At that time in church history, there were few if any holiness churches that had not gone down into legalism and it is even worse now.

I am thankful that I have never been in a church preaching holiness. It would have been legalistic and would have put me off, having a rather rebellious spirit when young. Instead, God took me on the path to holiness journey on my own, outside the camp.

I just ask that give this teaching a chance for you to see that it is not what you were taught in your youth.

 

[uncle silas]

@uncle silas

Look, I am sorry you had such a bad church experience. They were clearly legalists and not preaching the true gospel. At that time in church history, there were few if any holiness churches that had not gone down into legalism and it is even worse now.

I am thankful that I have never been in a church preaching holiness. It would have been legalistic and would have put me off, having a rather rebellious spirit when young. Instead, God took me on the path to holiness journey on my own, outside the camp.

I just ask that give this teaching a chance for you to see that it is not what you were taught in your youth.

Youre wasting your time, you can only convince yourself you are completely sin free by watering down the law/commandments of God. Ive seen it time after time after time. Ive never had such a luxury myself, as any applicable law is within me, and I cannot hide from it, or water it down, and I am sincerely grateful I cannot. ''Pat statements'' that are no ones reality are not for me, Ive seen the damage it has done to so many others. I personally know of christian counsellors who have spent time with so many people damaged by people who have acted that way. One counsellor told me it was a form of spiritual abuse. The pharisees used the letter of the then sc riptures to crush and oppress the people, they became downtrodden. There is no love in it for your neighbour.

 

[Hepzibah]

Youre wasting your time, you can only convince yourself you are completely sin free by watering down the law/commandments of God. Ive seen it time after time after time. Ive never had such a luxury myself, as any applicable law is within me, and I cannot hide from it, or water it down, and I am sincerely grateful I cannot. ''Pat statements'' that are no ones reality are not for me, Ive seen the damage it has done to so many others. I personally know of christian counsellors who have spent time with so many people damaged by people who have acted that way. One counsellor told me it was a form of spiritual abuse. The pharisees used the letter of the then sc riptures to crush and oppress the people, they became downtrodden. There is no love in it for your neighbour.

I entirely agree with you, though it was not like that in my country so much. I have heard that many have been severely damaged by it and feel for them.

I do not water down the commandments and am not sin free as I have said.

The message should be that it is by the power of God alone, we just have to consent to be used by Him. Any effort is the flesh. I don't know if the Lord will restore me or not, but the message is for those who are stuck in Romans 7, and find that they cannot stop unintentional sin. That is not for the Pharisee as he would never even know that. Paul said he kept the law perfectly as a Pharisee.

No it is for those who love the Lord and come to the point of despair that Paul came to before he found out the key to move forward. Sadly you did not find the key but there is hope.

 

[uncle silas]

I entirely agree with you, though it was not like that in my country so much. I have heard that many have been severely damaged by it and feel for them.

I do not water down the commandments and am not sin free as I have said.

The message should be that it is by the power of God alone, we just have to consent to be used by Him. Any effort is the flesh. I don't know if the Lord will restore me or not, but the message is for those who are stuck in Romans 7, and find that they cannot stop unintentional sin. That is not for the Pharisee as he would never even know that. Paul said he kept the law perfectly as a Pharisee.

No it is for those who love the Lord and come to the point of despair that Paul came to before he found out the key to move forward. Sadly you did not find the key but there is hope.

Rom 7:7-11&14-24 is all about Saul the pharisee

 

[uncle silas]

I entirely agree with you, though it was not like that in my country so much. I have heard that many have been severely damaged by it and feel for them.

I do not water down the commandments and am not sin free as I have said.

The message should be that it is by the power of God alone, we just have to consent to be used by Him. Any effort is the flesh. I don't know if the Lord will restore me or not, but the message is for those who are stuck in Romans 7, and find that they cannot stop unintentional sin. That is not for the Pharisee as he would never even know that. Paul said he kept the law perfectly as a Pharisee.

No it is for those who love the Lord and come to the point of despair that Paul came to before he found out the key to move forward. Sadly you did not find the key but there is hope.

Paul wrote romans towards the end of his life. Did he really live his Christian life not being able to do the good he wanted to do, only the evil he did not want to do he kept on doing?

He had the desire to do what was good but he could not carry it out

Paul’s core message can be summed up in rom6:14

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.



Sin was definatley the master of the person mentioned in ch7:14-24

That person was sold as a slave to sin(verse14)

A slave always has a master, sin was Paul’s master and he was its slave. Back to ch6:14

Paul’s core message could not have applied to him if Paul, not Saul is being written about in those verses

Saul kept the legalistic law perfectly, not the moral law of the TC(Rom7:7-11)

 

[Hepzibah]

This is the testimony of Paul when he was a Pharisee:

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Phil 3:6

Pharisees only saw the need to have the 'outer cup' clean, they did not understand that what comes out of a man pollutes him. Jesus put an end to that belief on the sermon on the mount when Her said that just looking at a woman with lust is the same as adultery.

A Pharisee is not going to have a struggle with unintentional sin which was the reason that Paul reached a crisis in Romans 7. He did what he did not want to do, he could not do that he knew he should.

He also says something that a Pharisee had not idea about:

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

They obeyed the law because they did not want to be punished. And because it made them superior, not because they had any delight in it and not in the inner man.

No he was not unsaved at that time. Only the believer struggles with unintentional sin.

 

[Hepzibah]

Paul wrote romans towards the end of his life. Did he really live his Christian life not being able to do the good he wanted to do, only the evil he did not want to do he kept on doing?

He had the desire to do what was good but he could not carry it out

Paul’s core message can be summed up in rom6:14

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.



Sin was definatley the master of the person mentioned in ch7:14-24

That person was sold as a slave to sin(verse14)

A slave always has a master, sin was Paul’s master and he was its slave. Back to ch6:14

Paul’s core message could not have applied to him if Paul, not Saul is being written about in those verses

Saul kept the legalistic law perfectly, not the moral law of the TC(Rom7:7-11)

Paul displays to us the answer which @Lizbeth has shown already, that he went on to Romans 8 as the Holy Spirit delivered him from his legalism.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth wrote: I was talking about Rom 8:1 and what follows from it (which follows on from Romans 7 and is the solution to the battle with sin), as well as other verses which speak to walking in the Spirit....and it is THROUGH the Spirit that we are to mortify the deeds of the flesh:

Gal 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

ok so you are addressing the difference between the old way of the letter and the new way of the Spirit.....and I agree that we are to serve in the new way of the Spirit......which I believe is according to those verses above. And all the Law is fulfilled in the Law of love...love of God and love of neighbour...His love shed abroad in our hearts by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit nudges and guides us according to the conscience of our new/renewed inner man which is informed by the Spirit and been instructed/taught by the word of God. This is why Paul referred elsewhere to "you who are spiritual" when he was telling them to "restore such a one". He was apparently talking to those who were no longer carnal and in the flesh, but were in the spirit and spiritually mature (however one gets to that place).

Here I believe is one place where the OT instructs us to be/walk in the Spirit: "Be STILL and know that I am God".

 

[uncle silas]

Paul displays to us the answer which @Lizbeth has shown already, that he went on to Romans 8 as the Holy Spirit delivered him from his legalism.

Paul displays to us the answer which @Lizbeth has shown already, that he went on to Romans 8 as the Holy Spirit delivered him from his legalism.

Im afraid not
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:9

When did the commandment come to Saul? At the age of 13 when he made a personal commitment to God.

When was Saul without the law? Before he made that personal commitment to God.
7-11 is all about Paul's failure as a pharisee not to covet, 14-24 elaborates on that.
Saul the pharisee followed after the law, Paul the Christian followed after the Holy Spirit

 

[Hepzibah]

Im afraid not
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:9

When did the commandment come to Saul? At the age of 13 when he made a personal commitment to God. 7-11 is all about Paul's failure as a pharisee not to covet, 14-24 elaborates on that.

He had reached the crisis all get to when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sins and we see ourselves as God sees us. He meant the law of God we obey as believers. He died means he can no longer carry on as things stand. He hates his sins but cannot stop sinning.

 

[uncle silas]

He had reached the crisis all get to when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sins and we see ourselves as God sees us. He meant the law of God we obey as believers. He died means he can no longer carry on as things stand. He hates his sins but cannot stop sinning.

You have no scripture to support Paul the christian being written about.
Once again, the commandment came to a young Saul the pharisee when he made a personal commitment to God at the age of 13.
When was Saul without the law? Before he made this personal commitment.
Paul followed after the Holy Spirit, Saul followed after the law, and sin took occasion of one of the TC to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul, not Paul!

 

[Hepzibah]

Paul was without the new covenant law when he was a Pharisee. The crisis I am talking about was when he was a believer but walking in the flesh but had been convicted of his sins. Why would he say he was aware of the 'inward man' or his spirit if an unbeliever?

 

[uncle silas]

Paul was without the new covenant law when he was a Pharisee. The crisis I am talking about was when he was a believer but walking in the flesh but had been convicted of his sins. Why would he say he was aware of the 'inward man' or his spirit if an unbeliever?

Paul was without the NC law when he was a Pharisee?
Was he without the TC as a pharisee???
That is what Rom7:7-11&14-24 refers to, one of the TC Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Hepzibah]

Paul was without the NC law when he was a Pharisee?
Was he without the TC as a pharisee???
That is what Rom7:7-11&14-24 refers to, one of the TC Thou shalt not covet.

He was under the OC law which included the TC. Jesus showed that the NC law was stricter. How could he be under the NC law as a Pharisee?

 

[uncle silas]

Paul was without the new covenant law when he was a Pharisee. The crisis I am talking about was when he was a believer but walking in the flesh but had been convicted of his sins. Why would he say he was aware of the 'inward man' or his spirit if an unbeliever?

I will tell you where evangelical churches go wrong. Yes, victory over sin is by following after the Holy Spirit, not the flesh. But, Paul's message of victory hinges on knowing you have no righteousness of obeying the law. Most evangelical churches stress the Holy Spirit, BUT, they also infer the law must be obeyed if you expect to get to Heaven. Or, Heaven hinges on not committing sin/obeying the law, which in reality becomes for so many ''I must obey the law'' (1John3:4) BTW, if you think that is embracing a licence to sin(no righteousness of not commtting sin), you do not understand Paul's message

 

[uncle silas]

He was under the OC law which included the TC. Jesus showed that the NC law was stricter. How could he be under the NC law as a Pharisee?

Youre skirting around what you are being shown. Rom7:7-11&14-24 is all about one of the TC , it is NOT, about NC law Saul the pharisee would not have known

 

[Hepzibah]

Youre skirting around what you are being shown. Rom7:7-11&14-24 is all about one of the TC , it is NOT, about NC law Saul the pharisee would not have known

OK I am going to butt out of this one and ask @Lizbeth if she has anything to add as I am intruding. Thanks.

 

[Lizbeth]

You didn't answer my question. Do you try and follow all of Christ's literal commands in the gospels? I know a lot of non cessationist churches. They quote the letter of much scripture, and, imply it must be fully complied with. The bible gives us the perfect blueprint for overcoming sin, and not living according to the sinfull nature. However, humans never perfectly follow the manual. It does not mean they do not want to, but in their humanity do not.
Love indeed fulfills the law, if you perfectly without slip obeyed the two greatest commandments you would indeed perfectly without slip obey every commandment.
But where is the bar set where loving others is concerned?

If someone asked to lend from you, would you gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back?
If someone stole from you, would you offer them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them ?
Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
Do you perfectly without slip, love all those you come into contact with in thought, word or deed, including your enemies, those who may be unkind to you, in sult or persecute you?

It is not loving others to ask of them what you do not ask of yourself. And quoting the random literal letter and implying you perfectly adhere to it is no ones reality. This unfortunately is what many non cessationalists do.
I heard a mnister speak once, he said 85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification/sanctification process. In my experience, and I have much, that figure is probably not far off the mark. I was raised with ''pat sentances''
I know the pristene level the law is set at, I do not water it down for convenience. And please understand, the bible speaks of sin in two different ways

If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be perfect/sinless in your flesh to be saved they would respond ''No'' for they know they are not sinless in their flesh(1John1:8)
However, if you asked the same people if you could live a wanton lifestyle of sin/be a slave to sin in this regard and be saved, they will also respond ''No''(1John3:9)
Being a slave to sin, is leading a life where sin completely dominates your life, that is your lifestyle!

I've always tried in sincerity to obey the Lord and His commands, and I believe that is what we all should do.....to me that is the normal Christian life...to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Nobody is going to carelessly or deliberately sin their way to heaven....it's a narrow path that leads to life. If we realize or come up against any area of difficulty, whether inner things or outward, I believe there is grace for us and we have an Advocate with the Father. But it then becomes something we need to sincerely take up with God to try and deal with, whatever the problem is that we are facing. We are not going to win the good fight of faith on our own without Him, in our own strength. That's why it's called a fight of FAITH. I believe it starts with acknowledging the sin as sin, and not trying to justify it, but seeking God's help to put it to death. If we are following Him I consider that He is even leading us on the journey of continuing to take more ground in our life and heart for Him...the increase of His government....defeating our enemies "little by little". Along the way, He shines His light and leads us to deal with things about ourselves that we weren't even previously aware of. Leading us through suffering and difficulties often brings things to light, up to the surface to be dealt with, as well as helping to purge us of things.

To my understanding, I take it that the subject being discussed is the question of ultimate victory .....is it possible to walk above our sin nature and have victory over it. Yes, I believe the bible is indicating that the potential is there even if not everyone will reach that level of victory in this life. When I read the bible I don't see this as a command "or else", but more in the tone of an encouragement and exhortation to keep going as far as the Lord leads until our time runs out. The scriptures are for building us up overall, assuming there is sincerity with the Lord, not for bludgeoning us down. As far as I can tell up to now, and maybe this is not entirely right, I don't know, but I think each soul is responsible to follow the leading of the Lord in our personal growth and repent and deal with whatever comes to light......to whatever extent He has ordained for us....all the days ordained for us were written before one of them came to be. I hope this isn't too much rambling, not young any more and not always easy to express things.