Oddly OSAS

[GracePeace]

Context is king, as they say.

I have never met anyone who takes things out of context more deeply than you do.

You literally try to argue Heb 3 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we endure to the end" means "You can't fall away from the faith" when the entire surrounding CONTEXT ("make sure you don't fall away--don't start well, but end badly, as what happened before to the Israelites") militates against that interpretation--what you do is you take a tiny strip, a tiny statement, and ignore every surrounding idea, yet you're telling me "respect the context"?

 

[marks]

I have never met anyone who takes things out of context more deeply than you do.

You literally try to argue Heb 3 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we endure to the end" means "You can't fall away from the faith" when the entire surrounding CONTEXT ("make sure you don't fall away--don't start well, but end badly, as what happened before to the Israelites") militates against that interpretation--what you do is you take a tiny strip, a tiny statement, and ignore every surrounding idea, yet you're telling me "respect the context"?

Are you aware of the implications that "have become", as in, have become partakers, the verb is in the "perfect tense", do you know what that means? I can't imagine you'll receive it from me, but I encourage you to study that, to learn that.

In short, the perfect tense refers to an action that once done remains done. "A rung bell" is like that. You cast a bell, and it's never been rung. It's an unrung bell. Then you hang a clapper in it and ring it. Now it is a "rung bell". This demonstrates the perfect tense in Koine Greek. The bell can never again be an "unrung bell".

You've become a partaker of Christ, if you endure to the end. If you do not endure to the end, you weren't a partaker of Christ, that never happened to you.

This harmonizes exactly with many other passages which speak to the same thing, such as John, they left because they were not of us. If they were of us they would have remained.

I'm just talking about the grammar of that verse. You needn't believe one thing or the other to recognize what the wording is saying.

Much love!

 

[marks]

ignore every surrounding idea

I don't ignore anything in the Bible, and you have no basis from which to claim I do, so this hardly adds to the discussion. And whatever other opinions you have of me, I guarantee it, they won't add anything either.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Are you aware of the implications that "have become", as in, have become partakers, the verb is in the "perfect tense", do you know what that means? I can't imagine you'll receive it from me, but I encourage you to study that, to learn that.

In short, the perfect tense refers to an action that once done remains done. "A rung bell" is like that. You cast a bell, and it's never been rung. It's an unrung bell. Then you hang a clapper in it and ring it. Now it is a "rung bell". This demonstrates the perfect tense in Koine Greek. The bell can never again be an "unrung bell".

You've become a partaker of Christ, if you endure to the end. If you do not endure to the end, you weren't a partaker of Christ, that never happened to you.

This harmonizes exactly with many other passages which speak to the same thing, such as John, they left because they were not of us. If they were of us they would have remained.

I'm just talking about the grammar of that verse. You needn't believe one thing or the other to recognize what the wording is saying.

Much love!

1. Again, your conclusion is contraindicated in the context.

2. If God forgets your righteousness of faith, it retroactively never occurs.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't ignore anything in the Bible, and you have no basis from which to claim I do, so this hardly adds to the discussion. And whatever other opinions you have of me, I guarantee it, they won't add anything either.

Much love!

Whether you interact further or not I am satisfied your position has been proven untenable.

 

[marks]

1. Again, your conclusion is contraindicated in the context.

2. If God forgets your righteousness of faith, it retroactively never occurs.

As I said, I'm just sharing with you the grammar in that verse. I really don't expect that you will receive this from me, but at the least I'd like to maybe stimulate your interest to look into this on your own. You'll find a variety of sources saying a variety of things, I'd stick the grammar itself.

It's like where Paul said "I've seen the risen Christ", he's one that has, and that never changes. Perfect tense.

In Hebrews, the verse is constructed in manner that says, whether or not you've become a partaker of Christ is shown by whether or not you hold to your confidence to the end. Have become is an "either you did, or you didn't", it's a simple construction when you look at it.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

As I said, I'm just sharing with you the grammar in that verse. I really don't expect that you will receive this from me, but at the least I'd like to maybe stimulate your interest to look into this on your own. You'll find a variety of sources saying a variety of things, I'd stick the grammar itself.

It's like where Paul said "I've seen the risen Christ", he's one that has, and that never changes. Perfect tense.

In Hebrews, the verse is constructed in manner that says, whether or not you've become a partaker of Christ is shown by whether or not you hold to your confidence to the end. Have become is an "either you did, or you didn't", it's a simple construction when you look at it.

Much love!

As I've said previously, I don't disagree with your breakdown of the grammar, I only disagree with what you conclude, because you don't take the context into consideration, and you disbelieve the doctrine that God forgets righteousness.

 

[GracePeace]

You've become a partaker of Christ, if you endure to the end. If you do not endure to the end, you weren't a partaker of Christ, that never happened to you.

This harmonizes exactly with many other passages which speak to the same thing, such as John, they left because they were not of us. If they were of us they would have remained.

Yeah, your reading may "harmonize" with lots of other verses you read in particular ways, but it doesn't harmonize with its immediate context--not only that, but, again, while your solutions ("look, it's saying something similar to this other verse over here") have practical utility, grace through faith/trusting God, they are impotent with respect to bringing full coherence to Scripture, leaving many questions unanswered.

I can't live like that.

Even if at the end of the day my profession should closely resemble yours, I could never deny Scripture to get there (and I see your arguments you use to get to where you are as a denial of Scripture).

 

[Phoneman777]

Since those who fall away from the faith are counted as having never been saved (their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten (Ez 18:24), their names blotted out of the Book of Life), in a way, those who have the faith never fall away, but continue on with the believers (1 Jn 2:19), which is, in an odd way, a form of OSAS--which frees me to accept and be comforted by the verses that speak of having been predestined, etc.

I don't think God's choice to not remember an impenitent apostate was previously saved is the same thing as Him counting them as never saved. They were indeed saved - but refusing to remember they were once saved is more akin to "inadmissible evidence" than "no evidence whatsoever" in the Judgment.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't think God's choice to not remember an impenitent apostate was previously saved is the same thing as Him counting them as never saved. They were indeed saved - but refusing to remember they were once saved is more akin to "inadmissible evidence" than "no evidence whatsoever" in the Judgment.

God does not remember your sins--He separates them from you as far as the east is from the west, puts them at the bottom of the sea. This same dynamic applies to righteousness which He "forgets". When He "forgets" you had the righteousness of faith, then it never existed. You are and always were an unbeliever. Only what God testifies to is real. If He doesn't give testimony to it, it does not exist. Christ says He will deny those who have soiled their garments, but the ones who walk in White are worthy, and He will not blot them out of His Book.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't think God's choice to not remember an impenitent apostate was previously saved is the same thing as Him counting them as never saved.

If your Name is blotted out of the Book of Life, and your name is not going to be read out of It, it is not different from it never having been in it.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't think God's choice to not remember an impenitent apostate was previously saved is the same thing as Him counting them as never saved. They were indeed saved - but refusing to remember they were once saved is more akin to "inadmissible evidence" than "no evidence whatsoever" in the Judgment.

Faith in God is not something that can occur naturally. When we believe in Him, it is actually taking hold of Him Himself. That can only occur if He permits it, if He gives Himself to you. If He were to remove that permission, if He were to no longer extend Himself to you, then you wouldn't "have" faith. This is why it says "Whoever disregards this [prohibition on immorality] disregards not man but God Who gives you His Spirit"--it is a warning that God will not continue to allow people to go on in immorality without consequence, but could decide to stop giving you His Spirit.

 

[GracePeace]

Our profession should be that we were foreknown, predestined, and Christ will never lose us--as for the person who was a believer, but whose righteousness of faith is forgotten, whose name is blotted out, God never said any of those things to them (so He is 100% faithful to His Word), and anyone who argues otherwise is a liar, because their testimony does not agree with God's testimony (that He never said any of those things to them).

So the saved cannot be lost, because "if they were of us, they would have remained with us".

 

[marks]

because you don't take the context into consideration,

Hebrews 3:10-19 KJV
10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 3:14 LITV
For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

Hebrews 3:14 YLT
for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Greaved with what generation? The Israelites who came out of Egypt. Why? They did not believe. Warning: take heed, lest you have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from God. Don't be hardened by the lies sin tells you! Because we have become partakers of Christ, but that's only true if we don't lose our confidence. Just like the Israelites, who though they followed Moses out of Egypt, still died in the wilderness, because they did not believe.

They came out of Egypt, but they fell in the wilderness, because of their unbelief. So for us . . . you may come into a church, call yourself Christian, "follow Jesus", but if you, like them, are actually in unbelief, you, like them, will fall.

Much love!

 

[marks]

you disbelieve the doctrine that God forgets righteousness.

You keep saying this, why??

God certainly outlined in Ezekiel 18 the conditions under which He forgets one's righteous acts.

Ezekiel 18:20-24 KJV
20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Let me ask you . . . is this referring to the righteousness one can have under the Law of Moses, or the righteousness of God that is by faith?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 3:14 LITV
For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

Hebrews 3:14 YLT
for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Greaved with what generation? The Israelites who came out of Egypt. Why? They did not believe. Warning: take heed, lest you have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from God. Don't be hardened by the lies sin tells you! Because we have become partakers of Christ, but that's only true if we don't lose our confidence. Just like the Israelites, who though they followed Moses out of Egypt, still died in the wilderness, because they did not believe.

They came out of Egypt, but they fell in the wilderness, because of their unbelief. So for us . . . you may come into a church, call yourself Christian, "follow Jesus", but if you, like them, are actually in unbelief, you, like them, will fall.

Much love!

Nope, their salvation from Egypt was already the type of our salvation (both by Passover), so the assumption is he's addressing truly saved people (Heb 10 "my righteous one will live by faith but if he draws back my soul has no pleasure" "without faith it's impossible to please God", "don't harden your heart").

 

[GracePeace]

You keep saying this, why??

God certainly outlined in Ezekiel 18 the conditions under which He forgets one's righteous acts.

Ezekiel 18:20-24 KJV
20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Let me ask you . . . is this referring to the righteousness one can have under the Law of Moses, or the righteousness of God that is by faith?

Much love!

It teaches us about God's character--He still forgets sin, so He still forgets righteousness.

 

[marks]

It teaches us about God's character--He still forgets sin, so He still forgets righteousness.

I'm always curious when someone doesn't answer a simple and direct question . . .

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I'm always curious when someone doesn't answer a simple and direct question . . .

Much love!

Your question is poppycock, trying to introduce irrelevancies that disrespect the stark reality of the matter, so I cut through the murkiness you desire to hide in.

 

[marks]

It teaches us about God's character--He still forgets sin, so He still forgets righteousness.

Again . . . the righteous that is through the Law? Or the righteousness of God that is by faith?
Both?

Much love!