Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Johann]

Pretty sure Paul was identifying with the struggle of believers in general.........then he shared what he had cottoned on to about walking in the spirit which ended the struggle.

I disagree-not because I want to, but I do believe we bring in our own biases and presuppositions.
The textual evidence dealing with the question, "Is Paul referring to a saved or unsaved person in Rom. 7:14-25?" is as follows
Unsaved person
This was the interpretation of the early Greek speaking church Fathers
The following phrases support this view
 (1) "I am of flesh," Rom. 7:14
 (2) "sold into bondage to sin," Rom. 7:14
 (3) "nothing good dwells in me," Rom. 7:18
 (4) "making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members," Rom. 7:23
 (5) "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24

The immediate context of Romans 6 is that believers have been freed from the mastery of sin. The context of chap. 8 starts with "so then."
The absence of any reference to the Spirit or Christ until the close of this context (Rom. 7:25).
Saved person
This was the interpretation of Augustine, Calvin, and the Reformed tradition
The following phrases support this view
 (1) "we know that the Law is spiritual," Rom. 7:14
 (2) "I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good," Rom. 7:16
 (3) "the good that I wish, I do not do. . .," Rom. 7:19
 (4) "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man," Rom. 7:22

The larger literary context of Romans 5-8 places Romans 7 in the section dealing with sanctification.
The obvious change of verb tenses from IMPERFECT and AORISTS in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the PRESENT TENSE in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).

The more a believer strives toward Christlikeness, the more he experiences his/her own sinfulness.

This paradox fits well this context and the personality of Paul (and, for that matter, most believers; for an opposite view see Gordon Fee, Paul, The Spirit, and the People of God). A line from a Lutheran hymn by Henry Twells:

 "And none, O Lord, has perfect rest,
 For none is wholly free from sin;
 And they who faint would serve Thee best
 Are conscious most of wrong within."

I think Paul was struggling with his Pharisaic past which gave a structure to his presentation of "Law" and "sin/death." However, I am also impacted by my own struggle with temptation and sin after salvation. It has surely colored my interpretation.

I think Gordon Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, represents another valid Christian's experience and perspective. One thing I know, there is an ongoing tension or conflict between
old age ‒ new age
old man ‒ new man
law ‒ spirit
This tension has been dealt with in Christ! Victory is ours. Never focus on Romans 7 without reading carefully Romans 6 and 8. Victory is ours in Him!

None other than Utley-
The obvious change of verb tenses from IMPERFECT and AORISTS in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the PRESENT TENSE in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).


God help me not to be prideful, but do study the Imperfect and Aorists and the Present Tense IN Romans 7.
Shalom
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"You fear you may be wrong so you make a defense."
It is always a possibility. What I have learnt is our emotions exist, but we have to explore the why.

do what? excuse me, but can you respond to what I said. I never said anythign about fearing I may be wrong. Are you assuming something??

Sometimes the answer is actually stepping outside the situation and noting the reaction we all have one with another.
To empathise we try and feel what another is feeling. We try to create a response which will lead to peace and connection.
But I know unfortunately a shut door in someone else is just that. No amount of me trying to connect will help, because
until the door is opened from within I am outside. Jesus said the same thing about us and Him. Until we open the door
and become vulnerable, all His love is wasted and we are lost.

Love is a strange thing, it always hopes, always perservers, always trys. But Jesus pointed out those who are out to create
antagonism should just be loved and accepted. Because there is nothing else one can do.

I had a relative who broke my heart. He lived in his own world of lack of self worth and paranoia. He tried to destroy me
in the most personal way because he got upset. He wanted to burn whatever relationship bridges we had. It hurt deeply
because I could not resolve this with my good intent, because with the time involved it could too easily be turned into
something that appeared bad. All I can do was wait.

Life is this balance, to functioning emotional people need to be able to communicate meaningfully.
If a house is burning down, there is no point saying no one believes flames do not do damage.
Clearly the need is to put the fire out. Believing in Jesus is believing He will put the fire out and heal us.

"That’s what legalism does to you."
I do not use labels. I know what Jesus helps us through, and thats all I really care about.
My biggest challenge is to grasp how to be open, encouraging and know forgiving and being forgiven.
I see these principles are core to the gospel and how the apostles walked with Jesus and it is our calling.

God bless you

again, I am confused about this post. what are you responding to?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Many in the church do accept sin in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness etc I'm afraid.

I hear this alot. But in my 40 years in the ministry and traveling to many churches all over the united states. I have never witnessed it even once.

Does this mean no churches ever do this? No. But I do not think the problem is as big as people make it out to be.. Licentiousness is just as evil as legalism.. I do believe there are licentious churches out there. but The greatest issue I have seen is far more damaging, and thats legalism

But I was thinking mainly about a bit earlier in the conversation with the apparent controversy Johann was having with Amigo.

I was not involved in that conversation. nor did I pay attention so I may have missed something..

If I misunderstood you forgive me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe Utley would agree with you-

There have been four major theories about how to interpret Romans 7 (see Contextual Insights for Rom. 7:7-25)
Paul is speaking of himself (autobiographical)
Paul is speaking as a representative of all mankind (representative)
Paul is speaking of Adam's experience (Theodore of Mopsuetia)
Paul is speaking of Israel's experience.

Shalom.
J.

I would say Paul is using himself as an example. and in that example. explaining what all of us go through. if we are honest with ourselves.

 

[Johann]

Many in the church do accept sin in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness etc I'm afraid. But I was thinking mainly about a bit earlier in the conversation with the apparent controversy Johann was having with Amigo.

That is between me and Amigo Lizbeth and not a "controversy"
J.

 

[Johann]

I would say Paul is using himself as an example. and in that example. explaining what all of us go through. if we are honest with ourselves.

Fully concur with you @Eternally Grateful.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Pretty sure Paul was identifying with the struggle of believers in general........

But he said he still struggled with it

.then he shared what he had cottoned on to about walking in the spirit which ended the struggle.

yes. if we follow the spirit. then we will not do this or that. But who follows the spirit 24/7 That is part of the struggle

Now yes. the more mature we become the less this struggle should be, But I do not think we ever stop.. we are always at risk.. I think of all the people I thought were so mature nothing could break them, then a death in the family., or some other major issue comes, and they crash..

We should. never think we made it..

No need to speculate about the thorn in the flesh....he stated what it was for.....not because of existing sin but to prevent a particular sin.

That particular sin was probably an existing sin, Other wise God would not need to help him prevent it

Many people including myself believe it was the sin of Pride.. Paul could be very proud at times, while at other times, be the most humble person alive..

 

[amigo de christo]

We can’t forget Roman’s 7. Paul had his besetting sins. Many believe his thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble because of this sin

actually if we read the letter we see the reason paul got the thorn was to KEEP HIM from becoming exalted in his own eyes .
LEst i should be exalted above measure , THERE was a thorn given me ............
GOD KNOWS how to keep us humble .

 

[Johann]

But he said he still struggled with it

yes. if we follow the spirit. then we will not do this or that. But who follows the spirit 24/7 That is part of the struggle

Now yes. the more mature we become the less this struggle should be, But I do not think we ever stop.. we are always at risk.. I think of all the people I thought were so mature nothing could break them, then a death in the family., or some other major issue comes, and they crash..

We should. never think we made it..

That particular sin was probably an existing sin, Other wise God would not need to help him prevent it

Many people including myself believe it was the sin of Pride.. Paul could be very proud at times, while at other times, be the most humble person alive..

I agree though we have the promises to overcome in any given situation, as I'm sure you experienced in your ministry.

I think the dominant problem is pride in all of us, with our biases, and the constant need to humble ourselves in the sight of Abba.
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

But he said he still struggled with it

yes. if we follow the spirit. then we will not do this or that. But who follows the spirit 24/7 That is part of the struggle

Now yes. the more mature we become the less this struggle should be, But I do not think we ever stop.. we are always at risk.. I think of all the people I thought were so mature nothing could break them, then a death in the family., or some other major issue comes, and they crash..

We should. never think we made it..

That particular sin was probably an existing sin, Other wise God would not need to help him prevent it

Many people including myself believe it was the sin of Pride.. Paul could be very proud at times, while at other times, be the most humble person alive..

Proud . paul was not proud .
You are correct , however , about the fact that sin is present with us all . Oh that flesh be a monster indeed .
It will produce lustful thoughts and desires into our minds at times . BUT SOO too will the SPIRIT
alarm us to reject such thoughts . WHICH ONE WE GONNA HEED is the question . caust most seem to not only follow
the flesh but JUSTIFY IT TOO . THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST .
a lamb hates the evils of its own flesh . THESE DO NOT , they hold rainbows and heed prosperity gospel money loving messages
they justify their second , third , or even fourth wife . THEY twist and omit JESUS own sayings to please their own flesh .
THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST . I SHOULD KNOW i was once the worst of them . Cept for the rainbow part
That was about the only sin i probably did not do or justify , well that and maybe abortion .
BUT MAN i loved my sin . I WAS SATANS CHILD but scary thing was i could quote the gospel . TIME TO SCARE the socks of this generation .
cause far too many been following another jesus for far too long , the one that serves their flesh .
NOW i aint saying YOU DO , it was a general reminder is all .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Proud . paul was not proud .
You are correct , however , about the fact that sin is present with us all . Oh that flesh be a monster indeed .
It will produce lustful thoughts and desires into our minds at times . BUT SOO too will the SPIRIT
alarm us to reject such thoughts . WHICH ONE WE GONNA HEED is the question . caust most seem to not only follow
the flesh but JUSTIFY IT TOO . THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST .
a lamb hates the evils of its own flesh . THESE DO NOT , they hold rainbows and heed prosperity gospel money loving messages
they justify their second , third , or even fourth wife . THEY twist and omit JESUS own sayings to please their own flesh .
THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST . I SHOULD KNOW i was once the worst of them . Cept for the rainbow part
That was about the only sin i probably did not do or justify , well that and maybe abortion .
BUT MAN i loved my sin . I WAS SATANS CHILD but scary thing was i could quote the gospel . TIME TO SCARE the socks of this generation .
cause far too many been following another jesus for far too long , the one that serves their flesh .
NOW i aint saying YOU DO , it was a general reminder is all .

Brother is spotted.
Praise the Lord.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Proud . paul was not proud .
You are correct , however , about the fact that sin is present with us all . Oh that flesh be a monster indeed .
It will produce lustful thoughts and desires into our minds at times . BUT SOO too will the SPIRIT
alarm us to reject such thoughts . WHICH ONE WE GONNA HEED is the question . caust most seem to not only follow
the flesh but JUSTIFY IT TOO . THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST .
a lamb hates the evils of its own flesh . THESE DO NOT , they hold rainbows and heed prosperity gospel money loving messages
they justify their second , third , or even fourth wife . THEY twist and omit JESUS own sayings to please their own flesh .
THEY DO NOT KNOW CHRIST . I SHOULD KNOW i was once the worst of them . Cept for the rainbow part
That was about the only sin i probably did not do or justify , well that and maybe abortion .
BUT MAN i loved my sin . I WAS SATANS CHILD but scary thing was i could quote the gospel . TIME TO SCARE the socks of this generation .
cause far too many been following another jesus for far too long , the one that serves their flesh .
NOW i aint saying YOU DO , it was a general reminder is all .

Happy time is sneaking up my dear brother.

 

[amigo de christo]

But he said he still struggled with it

yes. if we follow the spirit. then we will not do this or that. But who follows the spirit 24/7 That is part of the struggle

Now yes. the more mature we become the less this struggle should be, But I do not think we ever stop.. we are always at risk.. I think of all the people I thought were so mature nothing could break them, then a death in the family., or some other major issue comes, and they crash..

We should. never think we made it..

That particular sin was probably an existing sin, Other wise God would not need to help him prevent it

Many people including myself believe it was the sin of Pride.. Paul could be very proud at times, while at other times, be the most humble person alive..

Its a die daily battle my friend . But greater IS HE that is in us that he that is of this world .
Just stay encouraged in the glorious Lord , be in prayer and bible reading daily .

 

[Lizbeth]

I disagree-not because I want to, but I do believe we bring in our own biases and presuppositions.
The textual evidence dealing with the question, "Is Paul referring to a saved or unsaved person in Rom. 7:14-25?" is as follows
Unsaved person
This was the interpretation of the early Greek speaking church Fathers
The following phrases support this view
 (1) "I am of flesh," Rom. 7:14
 (2) "sold into bondage to sin," Rom. 7:14
 (3) "nothing good dwells in me," Rom. 7:18
 (4) "making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members," Rom. 7:23
 (5) "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24

The immediate context of Romans 6 is that believers have been freed from the mastery of sin. The context of chap. 8 starts with "so then."
The absence of any reference to the Spirit or Christ until the close of this context (Rom. 7:25).
Saved person
This was the interpretation of Augustine, Calvin, and the Reformed tradition
The following phrases support this view
 (1) "we know that the Law is spiritual," Rom. 7:14
 (2) "I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good," Rom. 7:16
 (3) "the good that I wish, I do not do. . .," Rom. 7:19
 (4) "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man," Rom. 7:22

The larger literary context of Romans 5-8 places Romans 7 in the section dealing with sanctification.
The obvious change of verb tenses from IMPERFECT and AORISTS in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the PRESENT TENSE in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).

The more a believer strives toward Christlikeness, the more he experiences his/her own sinfulness.

This paradox fits well this context and the personality of Paul (and, for that matter, most believers; for an opposite view see Gordon Fee, Paul, The Spirit, and the People of God). A line from a Lutheran hymn by Henry Twells:

 "And none, O Lord, has perfect rest,
 For none is wholly free from sin;
 And they who faint would serve Thee best
 Are conscious most of wrong within."

I think Paul was struggling with his Pharisaic past which gave a structure to his presentation of "Law" and "sin/death." However, I am also impacted by my own struggle with temptation and sin after salvation. It has surely colored my interpretation.

I think Gordon Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, represents another valid Christian's experience and perspective. One thing I know, there is an ongoing tension or conflict between
old age ‒ new age
old man ‒ new man
law ‒ spirit
This tension has been dealt with in Christ! Victory is ours. Never focus on Romans 7 without reading carefully Romans 6 and 8. Victory is ours in Him!

None other than Utley-
The obvious change of verb tenses from IMPERFECT and AORISTS in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the PRESENT TENSE in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).


God help me not to be prideful, but do study the Imperfect and Aorists and the Present Tense IN Romans 7.
Shalom
J.

I hope this addresses what you are trying to point out. All who believe by faith have Christ (His Spirit), so we are in the Spirit and not the flesh in one sense, that we are living in the Spirit………..but we are instructed/exhorted to therefore ALSO walk in the Spirit.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal 5:25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


In one sense (if this is right), I see being alive in the Spirit, living in the Spirit, as talking about our new condition after coming to faith in Christ……and walking in the spirit is whether and how we are walking out and expressing that life of the spirit where the rubber hits the road, yielding to the Spirit and not the flesh. But like John in Rev said, that he was in the spirit on the Lord’s day….there is another more literal or fuller way of being and walking in the Spirit, as many believers have experienced.

 

[Lizbeth]

That is between me and Amigo Lizbeth and not a "controversy"
J.

Seemed to me that it should have been, but wasn't.

 

[Johann]

I hope this addresses what you are trying to point out. All who believe by faith have Christ (His Spirit), so we are in the Spirit and not the flesh in one sense, that we are living in the Spirit………..but we are instructed/exhorted to therefore ALSO walk in the Spirit.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal 5:25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


In one sense (if this is right), I see being alive in the Spirit, living in the Spirit, as talking about our new condition after coming to faith in Christ……and walking in the spirit is whether and how we are walking out and expressing that life of the spirit where the rubber hits the road, yielding to the Spirit and not the flesh. But like John in Rev said, that he was in the spirit on the Lord’s day….there is another more literal or fuller way of being and walking in the Spirit, as many believers have experienced.

There's nothing wrong with the Scriptures you've quoted—I'm just curious, what have you experienced that I haven't? Are you referring to a more "literal" or "fuller" understanding?

Or a "second blessing?"
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

But he said he still struggled with it

It reads to me that he was just identifying with those who were still struggling, in order to show them the way out. That's why he wrote it...as instruction.

yes. if we follow the spirit. then we will not do this or that. But who follows the spirit 24/7 That is part of the struggle

Now yes. the more mature we become the less this struggle should be, But I do not think we ever stop.. we are always at risk.. I think of all the people I thought were so mature nothing could break them, then a death in the family., or some other major issue comes, and they crash..

We should. never think we made it..

Well there is always the fear of God to consider, when we need it. It's our best friend if we're facing temptation in some way. But if we're repeatedly failing in some way in spite of our best efforts and desire not to, I think that is usually a bondage, not an ordinary little battle with the flesh. That can be due to emotional reasons which need healing, or sometimes it is God filling our face with quail until we're completely sick of it, because we wouldn't stop sinning when we could have,

Agree....."Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall", yes because pride goes before a fall. And sin always exists in the flesh with the potential to rise up, so we always need to be vigilant and aware and seeking God. If the devil sees a chink in your armour, if the Lord permits it he will try to exploit it.

Yes, with regard to trials, we don't always know how we will respond when we are tested until we are tested.

That particular sin was probably an existing sin, Other wise God would not need to help him prevent it

Many people including myself believe it was the sin of Pride.. Paul could be very proud at times, while at other times, be the most humble person alive..

Paul was candid and accurate in saying it was to prevent pride. It doesn't mean he was proud or struggling with pride at the time.....just that pride (and other things) exists in all our flesh...it only requires the right circumstances to trigger it. It's always a case of there but for the grace of God go I. Sometimes His grace comes in a form that is not something we would wish for, but it's for our good.

 

[Lizbeth]

There's nothing wrong with the Scriptures you've quoted—I'm just curious, what have you experienced that I haven't? Are you referring to a more "literal" or "fuller" understanding?

Or a "second blessing?"
J.

I have no idea what you have experienced or not experienced Johann. (Though I do have the impression that you object to spiritual experiences in general.)

 

[Johann]

I have no idea what you have experienced or not experienced Johann. (Though I do have the impression that you object to spiritual experiences in general.)

The just shall live by faith-not by experiences.This principle is drawn from verses like Habakkuk 2:4 and repeated in Romans 1:17, emphasizing that our relationship with God is grounded in faith, trusting His Word and promises, rather than relying on personal experiences or emotions.

Remember I asked you what is the role of the Ruach HaKodesh? These are short video clips and we all have the time, or to make time in order to grow in Christ Jesus, sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Shalom.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It reads to me that he was just identifying with those who were still struggling, in order to show them the way out. That's why he wrote it...as instruction.

I will be honest. I do not see how you can come up with that view.

Romans 7:
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we look at this

1. Paul talks in present tense.
What I am doing. That I do not understand
what I will to do, right now. I do not practice.
But I do right now what I hate (present tense)
I want to do good. But I find it hard. I do not want to do bad. But that I dp
there is right now in me two laws.

The law of the flesh and the law of the spirit.

When I work by the flesh, I serve God.

but when I work through the flesh, I serve self.

There is no paul found victory..and he no longer struggled.. Paul did not speak in past tense, and say he arrived, and now we can be like him and arrive also.

Well there is always the fear of God to consider, when we need it. It's our best friend if we're facing temptation in some way. But if we're repeatedly failing in some way in spite of our best efforts and desire not to, I think that is usually a bondage, not an ordinary little battle with the flesh. That can be due to emotional reasons which need healing, or sometimes it is God filling our face with quail until we're completely sick of it, because we wouldn't stop sinning when we could have,

I would call that a besetting sin, And we should do like James said, confess our sins to one another. So we may be healed. All of us should be in an open discipleship relationship with someone we can be free to confess and get help with our issues.

again, if we think we have made it and no longer have issues, we are in danger. Because God can not expose sin when we do nto think we have any.

Agree....."Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall", yes because pride goes before a fall. And sin always exists in the flesh with the potential to rise up, so we always need to be vigilant and aware and seeking God. If the devil sees a chink in your armour, if the Lord permits it he will try to exploit it.

Amen and Amen sister!!

Yes, with regard to trials, we don't always know how we will respond when we are tested until we are tested.

Amen again, and another reason we should be in a discipleship relationship.

Paul was candid and accurate in saying it was to prevent pride. It doesn't mean he was proud or struggling with pride at the time.....just that pride (and other things) exists in all our flesh...it only requires the right circumstances to trigger it. It's always a case of there but for the grace of God go I. Sometimes His grace comes in a form that is not something we would wish for, but it's for our good.

But if paul would never struggle with it, Then there is no need to have a thorn in the flesh.. If it was not anything Paul would have to worry about. Then it is strange God gave him this thorn, to help prevent him from doing something he would never struggle with anyway.