Oddly OSAS

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Ernest T. Bass

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How ever you want to read Heb 6, the point is that those who fall away (I think you're NOSAS right?) are accounted as having never believed, never having been saved... therefore, the saved are kept and never lose salvation, "if they were of us they would have continued with us", because God keeps us.
That's not the case in Heb 6

1) the KJV says "if they fall away" but is better rendered "have fallen away" showing a state apostasy already. Again, apostate means one who has moved from a previous position from a previous saved position to a fallen position. Again, an always lost, fallen person cannot fall for he is ALREADY fallen. So the fact it is said they "fall away" proves they were previously saved and change position to a lost state.

2) they were in a saved position:

once enlightened, (moved from darkness to light, Acts 26:18; Col 1:13)
and have tasted of the heavenly gift, (Rom 6:23 gift of God is salvation)
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (they were children of God Heb 5 but had not matured as they ought to have done)
 

MatthewG

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Hi,

Anyone who rejects Christ has the spirit of antichrist. So there are many antichrists today as it was back then at the time of John.

I do not see those who are antichrist as being predetermined against their will to be that way, they choose to be that way.

"They would have 'continued' (or abideth) with us" continuing is a matter of freewill, 2 Tim 2:12.....

1 Jn 2:24
Let that therefore abide (continue) in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
One has free will to choose to let the word of God abide/continue in them or not.

Right.

Just as you have stated, with the letter from Paul to Timothy, to continue to abide, just Yeshua states those who abide in him, he will abide in you, by the Spirit of Christ. I do believe that there are people of many denomations who truly try to seek after God, and there are followers of him, out there and are part of the heavenly kingdom, and family of believers.

It's always going to be a matter of the heart, who will sit on the throne by the end of life, ones own self, of placing Yahavah, before you on your heart first loving him and loving others.

Thank you for your conversation.
 

GracePeace

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That's not the case in Heb 6

1) the KJV says "if they fall away" but is better rendered "have fallen away" showing a state apostasy already. Again, apostate means one who has moved from a previous position from a previous saved position to a fallen position. Again, an always lost, fallen person cannot fall for he is ALREADY fallen. So the fact it is said they "fall away" proves they were previously saved and change position to a lost state.

2) they were in a saved position:

once enlightened, (moved from darkness to light, Acts 26:18; Col 1:13)
and have tasted of the heavenly gift, (Rom 6:23 gift of God is salvation)
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (they were children of God Heb 5 but had not matured as they ought to have done)
Yep, they moved away, and their faith counted as righteousness was forgotten, which means, effectively, that they never were saved. If you're blotted out of the Book of Life, your name is not going to be read from it, thus it effectively isn't there.
 

GracePeace

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I don't see this as a serious discussion any longer.
Please continue response on Matthew 18, because you have not addressed it sufficiently.

The guy was forgiven, meaning he was a believer, and the forgiveness was rescinded, meaning his belief was taken away--just as the lazy servant in Matthew 25, who has the "talent", the measure of faith, removed from him.
 

GracePeace

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That's not the case in Heb 6

1) the KJV says "if they fall away" but is better rendered "have fallen away" showing a state apostasy already. Again, apostate means one who has moved from a previous position from a previous saved position to a fallen position. Again, an always lost, fallen person cannot fall for he is ALREADY fallen. So the fact it is said they "fall away" proves they were previously saved and change position to a lost state.

2) they were in a saved position:

once enlightened, (moved from darkness to light, Acts 26:18; Col 1:13)
and have tasted of the heavenly gift, (Rom 6:23 gift of God is salvation)
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (they were children of God Heb 5 but had not matured as they ought to have done)

Yep, they moved away, and their faith counted as righteousness was forgotten, which means, effectively, that they never were saved. If you're blotted out of the Book of Life, your name is not going to be read from it, thus it effectively isn't there.
If what I'm saying is not true, what do you do with...

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

...since you believe people can fall away?
 
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MatthewG

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Please continue response on Matthew 18, because you have not addressed it sufficiently.

The guy was forgiven, meaning he was a believer, and the forgiveness was rescinded, meaning his belief was taken away--just as the lazy servant in Matthew 25, who has the "talent", the measure of faith, removed from him.

GP,

I forget about this sometimes. It's the one whom when given such a great precious message, decided to conceal it. Therefore it was taken away, the gift of life, because they decided to place themselves first. The first one gave much and received as much which those who lived by Faith, the second one gave just as much as the first one only halved but that was because of their faith. The measure of faith of God is unknown to us, but known to Him, how close an individuals walk in faith and in the spirit is. Because it's such a personal thing to follow the Living Yahavah, whom sent his Word, whom came down in the flesh, born of the spirit. Gave up his life for all people.

There were people just as Satan that old Devil. Given the ability to do whatsoever he chose, as long he did not kill Job. There are people who do so willingly whatever with that precious gift, and as a result end up with nothing. I would consider separation from God outside the kingdom, which the fire resinates from. Because of Yahavah, being a consuming fire.

Thank you for the reminder because I do really forget about it alot.
 

mailmandan

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Why would it be? It's a false position. If you eat your cake, you don't still have it. If you still have it, you haven't eaten it.

And using Ezekiel 18 to define the New Covenant is the same kind of thing.

Much love!
In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that BELIEVES.
 

GracePeace

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In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that BELIEVES.
The dynamic is that God forgets righteousness just like He forgets sin--and God is the same yesterday today and forever, so, just as He still forgets sin today, He still forgets righteousness today.

Today, however, "faith is counted as righteousness", thus the righteousness that is forgotten is the faith counted as righteousness, and this explains how forgiveness can be rescinded (Mt 18), because a person is forgiven all their debts when they believe Ro 4:6-8, so the rescinding of the forgiveness is the forgetting of their righteousness of faith, the blotting out of the Book of Life!

As @marks says, I just accept what I read!
 

marks

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Please continue response on Matthew 18, because you have not addressed it sufficiently.
I have, unless you have a question about my response. That I don't agree with your interpretation, I think I've already said why. In parables, in particular those which are defined for us, as is this one, look at the teaching that accompanies it, and see how the parable illustrates the teaching. Those elements that are not part of the teaching aren't meant to define some new doctrine, they are a part of the story.

For example, look at the parable of the 10 Bridesmaids, at how many and how different the interpretations because people try to apply all the details of a parable to their doctrine.

Here, the parable of the master who cancels his servant's debt, who then will not cancel his fellow servant's debt. The master had forgiven the servant, and rescinded the forgiveness for the servant's unforgiveness of the other's debt. The punishment of course was debtor's prison, where you'd then be forced to come up with the money, or your family or friends would, or you'd sit there until the next year of release.

This was given by Jesus to the Jews, who were at that time under the covenant of obedience that God made with the nation Israel at Mt. Horeb. And this parable accurately illustrates the demand of the Law, and what will happen if it is not kept. It echoes the prophecies given by Ezekiel as a part of this same covenant, that the righteous acts of a person will be forgotten if they turn to wickedness, and that the wicked acts will be forgotten if they turn back to righteousness.

Seemingly Jesus could have continued in saying, but if that servant should forgive his fellow servant, he could again find forgiveness from his master. Of course I'm not suggesting we add to this parable.

Under the covenant of obedience that Israel as a nation had agreed to, these were the terms. Blessings for obedience, cursings for disobedience. Cursings would end when they became obedient, blessings would end when they became disobedient.

Notice the fate of the unforgiving servant. He'd be put in prison til he'd paid every penny. That's not equivalent to "lost eternal life", or "lost sonship from God", like that.

The story, the parable, is to illustrate the difference in the degree of forgiveness that God offers compared to what God demands. Jesus is telling the Jews, who are in this covenant, this is your covenant, this is the way it is. You don't do these things, and you will not be forgiven.

There is nothing in this parable to suggest an equivalency between having the debt cancelled with being regenerated, except that it reminds you, others, of this, in the commonality of being forgiven. But that was under the Law covenant also, and particularly, in that covenant, it could change like that. But not under the New Covenant, under which Paul wrote the things I've shared, which show something different.

Whether or not you agree with my interpretation, that I can show this directly from Scripture at the very least would demonstrate, if not that this is in fact the accurate view, that there is more than one legitimate view, if we grant that others are legitimate, that is, demonstrable from the text.

Which is to say, this parable does not give a clear specific teaching on whether or not being born again is forever, or if you can return to the death you were in before being regenerated.

Much love!
 
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marks

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just as He still forgets sin today, He still forgets righteousness today.
The real question is, though, does He forget His children? I say no, He does not.

In your view, it seems to me, this is no different from the covenant God made with Israel. If you obey, you live, if you don't, you die, and your status can change. But that's all based on us, our performance. To my understanding, my eternal life, my regeneration, is all based on what Jesus died, dying, rising, and not one actions I have or have not done.

As the Bible says, the new covenant is based on better promises. What would that mean, "better promises"?

Much love!
 
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GracePeace

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I have, unless you have a question about my response. That I don't agree with your interpretation, I think I've already said why. In parables, in particular those which are defined for us, as is this one, look at the teaching that accompanies it, and see how the parable illustrates the teaching. Those elements that are not part of the teaching aren't meant to define some new doctrine, they are a part of the story.
1. The person was pardoned all their sins.
2. The person pardoned all their sins should forgive.
3. If the pardoned does not forgive, the pardon is rescinded.
4. Jesus says this applies to His disciples--they must forgive their brothers (fellow believers), or the forgiveness extended to them will be rescinded.
5. Jesus says "go disciple the nations teaching them to observe what I have commanded you", so the teaching wasn't for the Jews. Such a dismissal of Jesus's words is an arbitrary shattering of the corpus of teaching He commanded His Apostles to teach us to observe.
This was given by Jesus to the Jews, who were at that time under the covenant of obedience that God made with the nation Israel at Mt. Horeb. And this parable accurately illustrates the demand of the Law, and what will happen if it is not kept.
Jesus actually commanded His Apostles to go and disciple the nations teaching them to observe what He commanded, thus, being those very disciples, the parable applies to us.
It echoes the prophecies given by Ezekiel as a part of this same covenant, that the righteous acts of a person will be forgotten if they turn to wickedness, and that the wicked acts will be forgotten if they turn back to righteousness.
So, is it true that God no longer forgets sins today, or does God still forget sins today?
If He still forgets sins today, why doesn't He forget righteousness today?
Seemingly Jesus could have continued in saying, but if that servant should forgive his fellow servant, he could again find forgiveness from his master. Of course I'm not suggesting we add to this parable.
Not sure what this is intended to effect.
The dynamic at play is God forgets righteousness--righteousness of faith is how he is forgiven, and forgetting righteousness of faith is how the forgiveness is rescinded.
Under the covenant of obedience that Israel as a nation had agreed to, these were the terms. Blessings for obedience, cursings for disobedience. Cursings would end when they became obedient, blessings would end when they became disobedient.
No, even in the New Covenant, the one who disobeys (the rule "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" Ro 14:5) is "condemned" Ro 14:23 and needs forgiveness.
Notice the fate of the unforgiving servant. He'd be put in prison til he'd paid every penny. That's not equivalent to "lost eternal life", or "lost sonship from God", like that.
He has to pay for his sins, which are no longer forgiven--the same fate as all unbelievers, because receiving forgiveness is by faith, and he is no longer a believer.
What this does is call in to question the eternality of punishment, which, actually, many other verses already do (eg, "It will be more tolerable for Sodom than for Chorazin in the Day of Judgment!", "few lashes... many lashes" Lk 12, the blasphemy against the Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, so if all sins are punished with eternal damnation, that would destroy the distinction and specialness of that unpardonable sin) and that is a different discussion.
The story, the parable, is to illustrate the difference in the degree of forgiveness that God offers compared to what God demands. Jesus is telling the Jews, who are in this covenant, this is your covenant, this is the way it is. You don't do these things, and you will not be forgiven.
He wasn't telling "the Jews" that, He was speaking to Peter and the Apostles. Look at the preceding verses.
Whether or not you agree with my interpretation, that I can show this directly from Scripture at the very least would demonstrate, if not that this is in fact the accurate view, that there is more than one legitimate view, if we grant that others are legitimate, that is, demonstrable from the text.
Just because I can point to a text doesn't mean I've done a good job of it, and doesn't mean there has been any "demonstration" of any truth--you recently rejected my citation of a Psalm.
Which is to say, this parable does not give a clear specific teaching on whether or not being born again is forever, or if you can return to the death you were in before being regenerated.

Much love!
Yes, Jesus says the Heavenly Father, Who forgives all our sins through faith in Christ, will rescind that forgiveness if we do not forgive others (just as He says in the Lord's prayer "forgive us our sins as we forgive our debtors"), meaning that the faith that is the basis for the forgiveness is itself rescinded, rendering the person an unbeliever, which goes to Heb 3 "We have become partakers if we endure until the end", meaning the partaking retroactively never occurs.
 

GracePeace

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The real question is, though, does He forget His children? I say no, He does not.
1. Deuteronomy 32:5 "They are no longer His children because of their defect"
2. Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are children of the LORD your God.", John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil."
3. Hos 1 "Not My People"... "It will be said 'children of the living God'" : while they are not His people they are not His children, when they re-become His people they re-become His children.
In your view, it seems to me, this is no different from the covenant God made with Israel. If you obey, you live, if you don't, you die, and your status can change. But that's all based on us, our performance. To my understanding, my eternal life, my regeneration, is all based on what Jesus died, dying, rising, and not one actions I have or have not done.
No, actually, I'm saying we need to trust God the same way you trust God--but with an additional caveat.
 

marks

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1. Deuteronomy 32:5 "They are no longer His children because of their defect"
2. Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are children of the LORD your God.", John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil."
3. Hos 1 "Not My People"... "It will be said 'children of the living God'" : while they are not His people they are not His children, when they re-become His people they re-become His children.
Look at your answer, this is from the covenant of obedience that God made with a single nation - no others - Israel. Do you consider yourself to be party to that covenant? I've asked this before, I don't think you have answered, unless I'm mistaken.

No, actually, I'm saying we need to trust God the same way you trust God--but with an additional caveat.
Sound's like another, no, you can't stop being His child, because if you do stop being His child, poof, you never were. Is that your caveat?

I think the real cause of our disagreement is in the manner in which we read the Bible, how we use words.

Much love!
 
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marks

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No, even in the New Covenant, the one who disobeys (the rule "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" Ro 14:5) is "condemned" Ro 14:23 and needs forgiveness.
This is definitely NOT once saved always saved. I consider you disengenous, and maybe you apply that to God as well?

Much love!
 
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GracePeace

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Look at your answer, this is from the covenant of obedience that God made with a single nation - no others - Israel. Do you consider yourself to be party to that covenant? I've asked this before, I don't think you have answered, unless I'm mistaken.
Paul says those things were written for us (1 Co 9, 10).
Sound's like another, no, you can't stop being His child, because if you do stop being His child, poof, you never were. Is that your caveat?
Yep!
I think the real cause of our disagreement is in the manner in which we read the Bible, how we use words.

Much love!
Thanks!
 

GracePeace

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This is definitely NOT once saved always saved. I consider you disengenous, and maybe you apply that to God as well?

Much love!
@marks I strive to honor the text. God knows. I don't see another way to honor the text. I see your way as dismissing the text.
 

marks

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@marks I strive to honor the text. God knows. I don't see another way to honor the text. I see your way as dismissing the text.
Including unwritten caveats? That doesn't seem honorable to me. No offense, just how it seems to me.

Much love!
 

marks

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Paul says those things were written for us (1 Co 9, 10).
Is that a "yes"? That you do consider yourself to be a party to the covenant of obedience that God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai?

I'm hoping you can give a clear and direct answer.

Much love!
 

GracePeace

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Is that a "yes"? That you do consider yourself to be a party to the covenant of obedience that God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai?

I'm hoping you can give a clear and direct answer.

Much love!
You said God's children can't unbecome His children, I disproved that. God doesn't change. The same God Who did it then still does it now, but by your reasoning, again, you'd have to toss a lot of the NT out, bc Paul gets all his doctrine from the OT, as Jesus says "a scribe or a lawyer who converts brings from his treasury things both new and old".

No of course I'm not part of that Old Covenant, and I don't need to be because those words were written for my sake (1 Co 9, 10).