Psalm 122:6 Does NOT Refer to Jerusalem of the Zionist Israel of Today

[Arthur81]

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: 'May they prosper who love you. Peace be within your walls and security within your towers.'” Psa 122:6-7 NRSVue

When this is applied to this day, it refers to the church of Jesus Christ, not the UN created State of Zionist Israel -

"Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother." Gal 4:25-26 NRSVue

Worship centered in Jerusalem was in the days of the Law, the Old Covenant. We now worship in spirit and truth in the New Covenant, in the church of Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.'” Joh 4:21-24 NRSVue

Christian believers come before God in the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Heb 12:22-24 NRSVue

"All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16 NRSVue

Since we are to pray for all categories of men -

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." 1Ti 2:1-2 RSV

Today we no more pray for Zionist Jerusalem than we'd pray for New York City, Baltimore, or Chicago, etc. ...

"But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." Jer 29:7 NRSVue

Important views of Torah Jews on Zionism: Mission – Torah Jews

A Christian who is excitedly focused on Jerusalem today appears to be a Zionist and Judaizer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: 'May they prosper who love you. Peace be within your walls and security within your towers.'” Psa 122:6-7 NRSVue

When this is applied to this day, it refers to the church of Jesus Christ, not the UN created State of Zionist Israel -

"Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother." Gal 4:25-26 NRSVue

Worship centered in Jerusalem was in the days of the Law, the Old Covenant. We now worship in spirit and truth in the New Covenant, in the church of Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.'” Joh 4:21-24 NRSVue

Christian believers come before God in the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Heb 12:22-24 NRSVue

"All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16 NRSVue

Since we are to pray for all categories of men -

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." 1Ti 2:1-2 RSV

Today we no more pray for Zionist Jerusalem than we'd pray for New York City, Baltimore, or Chicago, etc. ...

"But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." Jer 29:7 NRSVue

Important views of Torah Jews on Zionism: Mission – Torah Jews

A Christian who is excitedly focused on Jerusalem today appears to be a Zionist and Judaizer.

Sorry but Jerusalem was , is and always remain the earthly city of God. It is not a UN zionist created city. It is where two temples stood and the third will be built. It is the city god called His footstool and where Jesus will reign from when H establishes His earthly millennial kingdom.

These quotees are from "Christians want to know and got questions".

City of Zion​

Zion, sometimes called Mount Zion, is synonymous with Jerusalem or the City of David (1st Kings 8:1). These names are all used interchangeably when referring to Jerusalem, so Zion refers to the land of Israel, the historical home of the Israelites, but the City of Zion refers to Jerusalem. It is a great place of religious significance to Israel. It says in 2nd Samuel 5:7, “David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David,” so we can see that the City of Zion is also the City of David, but Zion has special meaning in the Bible. The psalmist prays that salvation would come out of Zion (Jerusalem) (Psalm 14:7, 53:6), and “God will save Zion and build up the cities of Judah, and people shall dwell there and possess it” (Psalm 69:35), so Zion is more than a place. It is where God is and the people of God are to be. And best of it, it is where salvation came from, speaking of Calvary and the redemptive work of Christ, and as the Prophet Isaiah foretold; “Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Whoever believes will not be in haste” (Isaiah 28:16), but someday, “the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away” (Isaiah 51:11).

Jerusalem in prophecy. The Bible predicted that the Jewish people would return to Israel, and Jerusalem figures prominently in prophecies concerning the end times (Joel 3:1; Jeremiah 23:3; 30:7; Ezekiel 11:17; 37:1–14). Someday, the Jewish temple will be rebuilt in the Holy City (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4).


Zechariah 12:2–4 refers to the futility of people attacking Jerusalem: “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness.”


My eyes and my heart will always be there” (2 Chronicles 7:16). God has promised an everlasting covenant with Jerusalem (Ezekiel 16:60), and Zion has this promise:
“‘Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,’
says the Lord, who has compassion on you” (Isaiah 54:10).

At His second coming, Jesus will descend to the Mount of Olives, just outside of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4). Jerusalem will be the seat of authority in Jesus’ kingdom, and judgment will be meted out from Zion (Micah 4:7; Isaiah 33:5; Psalm 110). With every passing day, we are closer to the Lord’s fulfillment of His promises concerning Jerusalem and His reign of true justice and peace (Isaiah 9:7). “Even so, come, Lord Jesus” (Revelation 22:20, KJV).

Matt. 5:35 It IS the city of the great king- not WAS the city of the great king.

When this is applied to this day, it refers to the church of Jesus Christ, not the UN created State of Zionist Israel -

I thought all allegorizers referred to the church as the Israel of God, now you come along and call Jerusalme the church

A Christian who is excitedly focused on Jerusalem today appears to be a Zionist and Judaizer.

No they are excited because the know that Jerusalem plays a big role in the end times and that Jesus, after He defeats the anitchrist in the region of Petra, goes back to Jerusalem, ascends the Mount of Olives and will start His Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Arthur81]

It is important to recognize that the word "church" is not a literal translation, it is an ecclesiastical word. and it is upon this ecclesiastical word, that much of dispensationalism exists. God's people in both OT and NT can be referred to as "Israel".

The first English Scripture translations were based upon the Latin Vulgate, not upon the Hebrew and Greek of our later Christian Bibles, and this includes the Wycliffe translation. The first English Scripture translated from the Hebrew and Greek was by Tyndale. The KJV, RV, ASV, RSV and NRSV of today are in the Tyndale-KJV tradition and so much of the KJV wording is taken from Tyndale. There is an important difference though, between the earlier English versions from the Latin and the one of Tyndale and Coverdale, from the Hebrew and Greek. Those based upon the Latin used the English word "church" and used it for God's people in both Old and New Testament. Tyndale/Coverdale used the word "congregation" and nowhere used "church" as a proper translation in either OT or NT. King James gave the KJV committee 15 instructions to follow and #3 was "The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, as the word church, not to be translated congregation." Then, in the original, full KJV Preface to the Readers we have this confirmed:

"Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put WASHING for BAPTISM, and CONGREGATION instead of CHURCH"

In Tyndale's translation "congregation" is used in both OT and NT and not church, the KJV used "church" solely in the NT and nowhere in the OT. The literal translations of the Bible such as Young's Literal Translation use "assembly" or "congregation" and nowhere is "church" found in either OT or NT. If we look at the history of our English translations, we find an ecclesiastical change with the KJV.

1382, Wycliffe translates "church" 31 times in OT and 111 times in NT
1535, Tyndale/Coverdale translates always "congregation" **
1610, Douay/Rheims translates "church" 19 times in OT and 109 times in NT
1611, KJV translates "church" 0 times in OT and 111 times in NT
1885, RV translates "church" 0 times in OT and 107 times in NT
1901, ASV translates "church" 0 times in OT and 107 times in NT
1971, RSV translates "church" 0 times in OT and 106 times in NT
1989, NRSV translates "church" 0 times in OT and 109 times in NT
** Tyndale/Coverdale translated the temples of the gods as churches in Acts 14:13; 19:37

Before the KJV, translations that used the ecclesiastical word "church" used it in the OT as well as the NT. The literal, word for word Tyndale/Coverdale translation never used "church" and used the more literal term "congregation". Beginning with the KJV and continuing in the later English translations, the word "church" is not found in the OT. The commentaries of past centuries often referred to Israel as "church".

Take note, God's people, the assembly of God, exist in both Covenants, Old & New:
OT-
"And the chiefs of all the people, of all the tribes of Israel, station themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand footmen drawing sword." (Judg 20:2, YLT)
"On that day there was read in the book of Moses, in the ears of the people, and it hath been found written in it that an Ammonite and Moabite doth not come into the assembly of God--unto the age," (Neh 13:1, YLT)
NT-
'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood, (Acts 20:28, YLT)
"to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place--both theirs and ours:" (1Cor 1:2, YLT)

Two Key NT Verses in the Tyndale/Coverdale:
"And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock, I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt. 16:18 Tyndale/Coverdale
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, whereof the holy ghost hath made you overseers: to rule the congregation of God, which he hath purchased with his blood." Acts 20:28 T/C

https://studybible.info/version/MSTC

The misleading and varied use of the ecclesiastical word "church" founds a fundamental and basic tenant of dispensationalism, which is a major error.

"Dispensationalism maintains: a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church" HERESY!

https://www.theopedia.com/dispensationalism

Note the reading in the following selection from the 1560 Geneva Translation

Howe doeth the citie remaine solitarie that was full of people? she is as a widowe: she that was great among the nations, & princesse among the prouinces, is made tributarie. She weepeth continually in the night, and her teares runne downe by her cheekes: among all her louers, she hath none to comfort her: all her friendes haue delt vnfaithfully with her, and are her enemies. Iudah is caried away captiue because of affliction, and because of great seruitude: shee dwelleth among the heathen, and findeth no rest: all her persecuters tooke her in the straites. The wayes of Zion lament, because no man commeth to the solemne feastes: all her gates are desolate: her Priests sigh: her virgins are discomfited, and she is in heauinesse. Her aduersaries are the chiefe, and her enemies prosper: for the Lorde hath afflicted her, for the multitude of her transgressions, and her children are gone into captiuitie before the enemie. And from the daughter of Zion all her beautie is departed: her princes are become like harts that finde no pasture, & they are gone without strength before the pursuer. Ierusalem remembred the dayes of her affliction, and of her rebellion, and all her pleasant things, that shee had in times past, when her people fell into the hande of the enemie, and none did helpe her: the aduersarie sawe her, and did mocke at her Sabbaths. Ierusalem hath grieuously sinned, therefore shee is in derision: all that honoured her, despise her, because they haue seene her filthinesse: yea, she sigheth and turneth backeward. Her filthinesse is in her skirts: she remembred not her last ende, therefore she came downe wonderfully: she had no comforter: O Lorde, behold mine affliction: for the enemie is proud. The enemie hath stretched out his hande vpon al her pleasant things: for she hath seene the heathen enter into her Sanctuarie, whom thou diddest commande, that they shoulde not enter into thy Church. (Lam 1:1-10 Geneva)

Those underlined words, the city, Judah, Zion, Jerusalem are all seen as being "thy Church'!

Even the KJV recognizes the "church" in the wilderness:

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" (Acts 7:38 KJV)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is important to recognize that the word "church" is not a literal translation, it is an ecclesiastical word. and it is upon this ecclesiastical word, that much of dispensationalism exists. God's people in both OT and NT can be referred to as "Israel".

Not once in the New Testament, except by a bad mistranslation of Galatians 6

The misleading and varied use of the ecclesiastical word "church" founds a fundamental and basic tenant of dispensationalism, which is a major error.

No it doesn't. Almost all believers accept teh word ecclesia (assembly< congregation, called assembly) to mean church when used in teh bible. You make this a tempest in a teapot.

Those underlined words, the city, Judah, Zion, Jerusalem are all seen as being "thy Church'!

No, sorry but that is wrong. When kept in context and understanding what Solomon is writing in the verses you see He is speaking of entering in both the sanctuary (which even Israel was forbidden) and the congregation of the faithful Jews.


Jerusalem has always been the capitol of Israel since the times of David. The nation was scattered to teh four winds and four corners of the earth as prophesied, andf now as also prophesied, God is regathering the nation of Israel back to her land He gave her as an everlasting possession, to purge, cleanse and punish her, to drive the rebel out, so they will enter into the New covenant God has made with Israel as defined in Jeremiah 31.

The body of Christ, aka the church, is the fulfilment of OT prophecy of Jesus calling out a people for His name, to provoke the Jews to jealousy. When the pleroma of the gentiles be come in- god will once again turn His attention to the people He made eternal covenant with- the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Arthur81]

I'll give a sample of commentary on some verses by John Gill (1697-1771). Gill was a Particular Baptist who held to Historic Premillennial eschatology. This is long before the hairbrained scheme of Dispensational interpretation came about in the latter 1800s. The church has always had the amil, postmil and premil through the centuries, and they were considered orthodox. The Dispensationalist ideas are not orthodox, nor do they have a record down through the centuries. Try finding a commentary or written teaching prior to the 1800s that separates the 69th from 70th week of Daniel 9:24. That is a new idea in the history of the church, and it is a pure fabrication of man in order to support a preconceived eschatology.

1 Thess. 4:16
"And the dead in Christ shall rise first ...and these will rise "first", before the wicked, which is the first resurrection, Re 20:5 even a thousand years before them; the righteous will rise in the morning of the resurrection, and so will have the dominion in the morning, Ps 49:14 even at the beginning of the thousand years, as soon as Christ will come; but the wicked will not rise till the evening of that day, or till the close of the thousand years..." John Gill was truly an Historic Premillennialist, believing in the 1000-year Personal Reign of Christ.

Matt 24:34
"till all these things were fulfilled...not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state."

Dan 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.... this is to be interpreted of the Roman people, spoken of in the latter part of the preceding verse; who, in order to accomplish their design to destroy the city and temple of Jerusalem, made peace with many nations, entered into covenant and alliance with them, particularly the Medes, Parthians, and Armenians, for the space of one week, or seven years; as it appears they did at the beginning of this week..."
"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" {m} of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus {n} says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land"
The absurd idea of separating the 70th week from the 69th week by 2000 years was an invention of 19th century Dispensationalists.

Matt. 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)...the Roman army is designed; see Lu 21:20 which was the כנף שקוצים משמם, "the wing", or "army of abominations making desolate", Da 9:27. Armies are called wings, Isa 8:8 and the Roman armies were desolating ones to the Jews, and to whom they were an abomination; not only because they consisted of Heathen men, and uncircumcised persons, but chiefly because of the images of their gods, which were upon their ensigns

2 Thess. 2:4
"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God; not in the temple of Jerusalem, which was to be destroyed and never to be rebuilt more, and was destroyed before this man of sin was revealed; but in the church of God, so called, 1Co 3:16 the Ethiopic version renders it, "in the house of God"; for antichrist rose up out of, and in the midst of the church; and it was a true church in which he first appeared, and over which he usurped power and authority; though it has been so corrupted by him, as now to be only nominally so; here he sits, and has homage done him by his creatures, as if he was a god, and is not only styled Christ's vicar, but a god on earth, and our Lord God the Pope"

Gal 6:16
"and upon the Israel of God... The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they {b} explain Isa 44:5, latter part."

Isa 2:2
"and all nations shall flow unto it; that is, many out of all nations shall be converted, and come freely and willingly to join themselves to the church of Christ; they shall come in great numbers, in company together, and that continually, like flowing streams; they shall first flow to the Lord, and to his goodness, and then to his church and ordinances; see Isa 60:4."

Gen 13:15
"and to thy seed for ever; the meaning is, that he gave it to his posterity to be enjoyed by them until the Messiah came, when a new world would begin; and which Abram in person shall enjoy, with all his spiritual seed, after the resurrection, when that part of the earth will be renewed, as the rest; and where particularly Christ will make his personal appearance and residence, the principal seed of Abram, and will reign a thousand years; besides, this may be typical of the heavenly Canaan given to Abram, and all his spiritual seed, and which shall be enjoyed by them for evermore."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'll give a sample of commentary on some verses by John Gill (1697-1771). Gill was a Particular Baptist who held to Historic Premillennial eschatology. This is long before the hairbrained scheme of Dispensational interpretation came about in the latter 1800s. The church has always had the amil, postmil and premil through the centuries, and they were considered orthodox. The Dispensationalist ideas are not orthodox, nor do they have a record down through the centuries. Try finding a commentary or written teaching prior to the 1800s that separates the 69th from 70th week of Daniel 9:24. That is a new idea in the history of the church, and it is a pure fabrication of man in order to support a preconceived eschatology.

It doesn't matter what commentators write or think. what matters is if it matches what is written in Scripture. covenant theology has to play twister with Scripture to make all 70 weeks continuous. Especially the 70th week immediately preceding the 69th! They are forced to reinterpret Scripture, mythicize it and allegorize to make the prophecies of the 70th week fulfilled in the lifetime and shortly after of Jesus.

covenant theology was popularized by the romanist Augustine and held sway by force, not by conviction.

While the name "dispensationalism" is young, how it interprets Scripture goes back to Moses!

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God; not in the temple of Jerusalem, which was to be destroyed and never to be rebuilt more, and was destroyed before this man of sin was revealed; but in the church of God, so called, 1Co 3:16 the Ethiopic version renders it, "in the house of God"; for antichrist rose up out of, and in the midst of the church; and it was a true church in which he first appeared, and over which he usurped power and authority; though it has been so corrupted by him, as now to be only nominally so; here he sits, and has homage done him by his creatures, as if he was a god, and is not only styled Christ's vicar, but a god on earth, and our Lord God the Pope"

so Gil has the church possessed by the man of sin! WOW! Don't really care what the "Ethiopic version" renders it, for the Greek word is "naos" and means only a temple or shrine.

See we dispensational folk believe in a literal translation based on the original words and not some others interpretive paraphrasing.

 

[Arthur81]

It doesn't matter what commentators write or think. what matters is if it matches what is written in Scripture. covenant theology has to play twister with Scripture to make all 70 weeks continuous. Especially the 70th week immediately preceding the 69th! They are forced to reinterpret Scripture, mythicize it and allegorize to make the prophecies of the 70th week fulfilled in the lifetime and shortly after of Jesus.

covenant theology was popularized by the romanist Augustine and held sway by force, not by conviction.

While the name "dispensationalism" is young, how it interprets Scripture goes back to Moses!

so Gil has the church possessed by the man of sin! WOW! Don't really care what the "Ethiopic version" renders it, for the Greek word is "naos" and means only a temple or shrine.

See we dispensational folk believe in a literal translation based on the original words and not some others interpretive paraphrasing.

You missed the point, Ronald. John Gill is Premillennial and I am Postmillennial, so some scriptures I do not agree with him on, even though he is my favorite Baptist theologian. My post was meant to demonstrate that the Dispensationalists who try to claim their pre-mil position is historically sound pointing to pre-mils of the past, are misleading to the point of prevaricating. John Gill is a Historist on Revelation, believing it details all stages of church history through the centuries, where I am Preterist on Revelation. John Gill believes in a great influx of converted Jews into the church of God in the days before the second coming. I believe elect Jews are being added to the church continually through the centuries since Pentecost, not a mass conversion at the end of time.

I will have to check, but I do not believe John Gill would be classed as a Covenant Theologian. I'll reply on that point later. You are the Dispenationalists I've known, including my past ideas many years ago, are founded on man-made footnotes, NOT the scriptures. One prime example is the outright refusal to believe the following verses -

"Thus the Lord gave Israel all the land which he had sworn to give to their forefathers; they occupied it and settled in it. The Lord gave them security on every side as he had sworn to their forefathers. Of all their enemies not a man could withstand them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hands. Not a word of the Lord’s promises to the house of Israel went unfulfilled; they all came true." (Josh 21:43-45 REB)

"‘Now, as you see, I am going the way of all mortals. You know in your heart of hearts, all of you, that nothing the Lord your God promised you has failed to come true, not one word of it. But the same Lord God who has kept his word to you to such good effect can equally bring every kind of evil on you, until he has rooted you out from this good land which he has given you. If you violate the covenant which the Lord your God has laid upon you and go and serve other gods and worship them, then the Lord’s anger will be roused against you and the good land he has given you will soon see you no more.’" (Josh 23:14-16 REB)

You can use any translation you like, but no way can Israel still be waiting to fully possess the land. I mean, 2500 years at least since these words were written and Jews are still waiting?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You missed the point, Ronald. John Gill is Premillennial and I am Postmillennial, so some scriptures I do not agree with him on, even though he is my favorite Baptist theologian. My post was meant to demonstrate that the Dispensationalists who try to claim their pre-mil position is historically sound pointing to pre-mils of the past, are misleading to the point of prevaricating. John Gill is a Historist on Revelation, believing it details all stages of church history through the centuries, where I am Preterist on Revelation. John Gill believes in a great influx of converted Jews into the church of God in the days before the second coming. I believe elect Jews are being added to the church continually through the centuries since Pentecost, not a mass conversion at the end of time.

And all this means nothing. I know of no dispensationalists who claim the dispensational position is historically sound. The opposite is true ! We know , that even though it was not called dispensationalism< it is biblically sound. Many ante-nicene fathers would be called dispensationalists. by the fourth century with Constantine and Augustine, any dispensational though was rapidly being extinguished in facvoir of covenant theology and replacement theory.

It wasn't until after the reformation had taken a strong hold that dispensational thought was rediscovered. That is easily explainable as God was delivering the church from stronger false doctrines first. that is a hyper brief summation but is true.

I will have to check, but I do not believe John Gill would be classed as a Covenant Theologian. I'll reply on that point later. You are the Dispenationalists I've known, including my past ideas many years ago, are founded on man-made footnotes, NOT the scriptures. One prime example is the outright refusal to believe the following verses -

I was a dispensationalist (though did not know the term) long before I learned the theological system of it. Just as I was a five pointer ling before I even knew who John Calvin was!

Thus the Lord gave Israel all the land which he had sworn to give to their forefathers; they occupied it and settled in it. The Lord gave them security on every side as he had sworn to their forefathers. Of all their enemies not a man could withstand them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hands. Not a word of the Lord’s promises to the house of Israel went unfulfilled; they all came true." (Josh 21:43-45 REB)

Bue God promised it to them forever! that is the prophecy in Scripture we focus on. also if you can show me from JOshua when Israel rules the Sinai all the way to the Nile rive in Egypt and the Euphrates river in Persia (Iran) , I would appreciate it.

I know that Joshua gained control of all of Caanan which is part of the full promise.

In Genesis 15 God meets Abram again promising him the land of Canaan and defining its boundaries. Now a fuller description of the land was given to Abram. Now the land stretched from the Nile River of Egypt to the Euphrates River in Mesopotamia (Genesis 15:18-21).

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.” Genesis 15:18–21 (NASB)

Once again, Israel was a tpeace in all Caanan, but did not rule from teh Nile to the Lebanese mountains and the Euphrates river, especially under Joshua. They just received all of Caanan which also was a promise given to teh fathers earlier.

 

[Arthur81]

Ronald, you are absolutely correct, John Gill is considered to follow Covenant Theology in the classical sense. In my discussion and debates with the Reformed and Presbyterian, there is quite a gap, and in that way it was not in my mind to consider John Gill a Covenant Theologian. For example, John Gill believed and taught Eternal Justification, which is like waving a red flag in front of a bull when talking with a typical Reformed believer. I'll give an example how that plays out in the understanding of a certain verse from Gill's commentary on Rom. 5:1.

"Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Ro 4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to

have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", Php 4:7; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness."

The original Baptist Confession of 1644/1646 on justification in one line reads:

"XXVIII.
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith."

Ronald, I will be busy rereading John Gill's Body of Divinity on the Covenants to refresh and enliven my memory on it, so I'll maybe not continue with you in thread for I'll be quite busy. I will explain something though, I'm on the prescription medication Lyrica for an aggravating nerve pain situation; so, it increases the memory problems already existing in an 82 y.o. confused

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, you are absolutely correct, John Gill is considered to follow Covenant Theology in the classical sense. In my discussion and debates with the Reformed and Presbyterian, there is quite a gap, and in that way it was not in my mind to consider John Gill a Covenant Theologian. For example, John Gill believed and taught Eternal Justification, which is like waving a red flag in front of a bull when talking with a typical Reformed believer. I'll give an example how that plays out in the understanding of a certain verse from Gill's commentary on Rom. 5:1.

"Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Ro 4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to

have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", Php 4:7; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness."

The original Baptist Confession of 1644/1646 on justification in one line reads:

"XXVIII.
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith."

Ronald, I will be busy rereading John Gill's Body of Divinity on the Covenants to refresh and enliven my memory on it, so I'll maybe not continue with you in thread for I'll be quite busy. I will explain something though, I'm on the prescription medication Lyrica for an aggravating nerve pain situation; so, it increases the memory problems already existing in an 82 y.o. confused

It is good to study the works of ancient and past believers, but we must be very careful. We must test their works over teh plain clear teaching of Scripture. I love and respect many of the believers who have gone on before me, but that does not mean I will blindly agree with all their writings and teachings.

I diligently try to make Scripture my final authority.

 

[Arthur81]

How I interpret Gal. 6:16 is not based on a theology; be it Covenant, New Covenant or Dispensationalist. I strive to interpret according to the rules of hermeneutics first, and then see how it fits into my theological architecture, as I see the "analogy of faith". My interpretation is as follows.

"And for me, let it not be--to glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which to me the world hath been crucified, and I to the world; for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation; and as many as by this rule do walk--peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:14-16 YLT)

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

All translations involve some degree of interpretation, and the RSV uses interpretation and in so doing it removes the "and'', or kai; which makes the "Israel of God" to be made up of all believers in Christ, without distinction, therefore, the church(Gk assembly). I have no doubt in my mind, the RSV is correct for the following reasons. The Greek kai is epexegetical, giving a title to the definition just given. One nation Israel was God's people in the OT, the NT makes clear that God's people in the assembly or congregation of God, come from ALL nations, making up the church, the unified body of Christ.

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6 RSV)

The "rule" which tells us who make up the "Israel of God" is made up of the preceding facts: It is those who glory only in the cross, they are "in Christ", and they are the "new creation" where circumcision/Jew nor uncircumcision/Gentile makes no difference. That describes Christians from any nation, and that is the "Rule".

Those who glory in the cross are believers without distinction: Rom. 1:16,; 1 Cor. 1:23; 2:2; Phil. 3:3
Those for whom the world has been crucified are believers without distinction: Gal. 2:20; 5:24
Those who are in Christ: 1 Cor. 1:29-31; the saints who are the faithful that are chosen in Christ, 1:1-4
It is those who are the "new creation", which are which are those in Christ: 2 Cor. 5:17; Col. 3:10-11

When I read Galatians chapter 3, I find references to law as: v10 "the Book of the Law", v21 "the law"; "a law", merely "law", v22 "theWriting". Paying attention to the YLT showing where the definite article refers to Mosaic Law, and then there is merely "law", which covers all of God's law which includes Gentiles Rom. 2:14-16, so from the various terms for "law" in the YLT chapter 3; it is clear it covers and refers to all, Jew and Gentile; none escape from being subject to the law of God.

Gal. 3:16 show the Abrahamic promise is to Christ, and then those who are "in Christ" which are believers.

Gal. 3:28-29 shows clearly the national distinctions are removed for all those "in Christ", they are seed of Abraham.

Gal. 4:21-28 shows all believers are the "brethren" are children of the promise through Isaac.

The "Israel" in v16 is certainly not the Christ rejecting Jews, for they are not to have "peace and mercy". If the "Israel" in v16 is only the believing remnant of Jews, you make Paul contradict himself by making the New Covenant church of God having two parts. The assembly of believers divided into Jew and Gentile makes no sense when compared to Paul's clear statement of law being abolished and the result:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end." (Eph 2:13-16 RSV)

 

[uncle silas]

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: 'May they prosper who love you. Peace be within your walls and security within your towers.'” Psa 122:6-7 NRSVue

When this is applied to this day, it refers to the church of Jesus Christ, not the UN created State of Zionist Israel -

"Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother." Gal 4:25-26 NRSVue

Worship centered in Jerusalem was in the days of the Law, the Old Covenant. We now worship in spirit and truth in the New Covenant, in the church of Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.'” Joh 4:21-24 NRSVue

Christian believers come before God in the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Heb 12:22-24 NRSVue

"All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16 NRSVue

Since we are to pray for all categories of men -

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." 1Ti 2:1-2 RSV

Today we no more pray for Zionist Jerusalem than we'd pray for New York City, Baltimore, or Chicago, etc. ...

"But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." Jer 29:7 NRSVue

Important views of Torah Jews on Zionism: Mission – Torah Jews

A Christian who is excitedly focused on Jerusalem today appears to be a Zionist and Judaizer.

Who does the following refer to?
Again the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel36:16-28

 

[Arthur81]

Who does the following refer to?
Again the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel36:16-28

Taking the entire chapter 36 of Ezekiel, it has man speaking to mountains, in v1 so I'm tipped off to expect symbolic or figurative language rather than a literal understanding of the words.

I then read of the sovereign Lord GOD taking action to show his holiness and power in recovering His name which Israel had profaned among the nations. He did this for his own sake.

In vs 25-27 I see a description of the new birth, renewal, language of being born again, and THEN Israel enters a land which requires the new birth to enter. Since this speaks of a regenerate people, it cannot have anything whatsoever to do with the UN created Zionist State Israel of today. I find my answer in the NT among those Jews of faith, the description of the land meant:

"All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them." (Heb 11:13-16 NRSV)

"Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect." (Heb 11:39-40 NRSV)

 

[uncle silas]

Taking the entire chapter 36 of Ezekiel, it has man speaking to mountains, in v1 so I'm tipped off to expect symbolic or figurative language rather than a literal understanding of the words.

I then read of the sovereign Lord GOD taking action to show his holiness and power in recovering His name which Israel had profaned among the nations. He did this for his own sake.

In vs 25-27 I see a description of the new birth, renewal, language of being born again, and THEN Israel enters a land which requires the new birth to enter. Since this speaks of a regenerate people, it cannot have anything whatsoever to do with the UN created Zionist State Israel of today. I find my answer in the NT among those Jews of faith, the description of the land meant:

"All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them." (Heb 11:13-16 NRSV)

"Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect." (Heb 11:39-40 NRSV)

Seems pretty straightforward to me. God, at a time in the future would bring the Israelites back to their biblical homeland and bless them there.

And I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[f]
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God. Amos9:14&15


This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” Zech8:23

I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God
and I will answer them.
7 The Ephraimites will become like warriors,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and be joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord.
8 I will signal for them
and gather them in.
Surely I will redeem them;
they will be as numerous as before.
9 Though I scatter them among the peoples,
yet in distant lands they will remember me.
They and their children will survive,
and they will return.
10 I will bring them back from Egypt
and gather them from Assyria.
I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon,
and there will not be room enough for them.
11 They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
12 I will strengthen them in the Lord
and in his name they will live securely,”
declares the Lord. Zech10:6-12

The quotes all seem to be plainly stating the same thing

 

[Arthur81]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. God, at a time in the future would bring the Israelites back to their biblical homeland and bless them there.

And I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[f]
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God. Amos9:14&15


This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” Zech8:23

I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God
and I will answer them.
7 The Ephraimites will become like warriors,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and be joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord.
8 I will signal for them
and gather them in.
Surely I will redeem them;
they will be as numerous as before.
9 Though I scatter them among the peoples,
yet in distant lands they will remember me.
They and their children will survive,
and they will return.
10 I will bring them back from Egypt
and gather them from Assyria.
I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon,
and there will not be room enough for them.
11 They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
12 I will strengthen them in the Lord
and in his name they will live securely,”
declares the Lord. Zech10:6-12

The quotes all seem to be plainly stating the same thing

Uncle Silas, when it comes to the difficult OT prophecies, written with so much symbolism and figurative language, I go to the Apostles of Jesus Christ as my primary commentator or expounder of those OT prophecies. As another example, you have quoted Amos 9:14-15, and that entire passage beginning at v11 is referred to by James in Acts 15:15-18 and applied to the New Covenant believers among the Gentiles, the assembly of God, called the 'church':

"This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written, ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; from its ruins I will rebuild it, and I will set it up, so that all other peoples may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called. Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things known from long ago.’" (Acts 15:15-18 NRSV)

While not all OT prophecies are explained by the Apostles, I get their approach which is helpful on those prophecies which they are not recorded in the NT as explaining. Admittedly, there are prophecies in the OT that even the most learned of scholars do not claim to have a full and true understanding of them, such as Ezekiel chapters 40-48, which with a literal interpretation is absurd. John Gill comments on those:

"This and the eight following chapters contain a vision of a city and temple herein described, and are thought to be the most difficult part of the whole Bible. The Jews forbid the reading of it till a man is arrived to thirty years of age; and then he must expect to meet with things in it he does not understand, and which must be left until Elijah comes to explain them. Many Christian commentators have omitted the exposition of these chapters; and all acknowledge the difficulties in them."

 

[uncle silas]

Uncle Silas, when it comes to the difficult OT prophecies, written with so much symbolism and figurative language, I go to the Apostles of Jesus Christ as my primary commentator or expounder of those OT prophecies. As another example, you have quoted Amos 9:14-15, and that entire passage beginning at v11 is referred to by James in Acts 15:15-18 and applied to the New Covenant believers among the Gentiles, the assembly of God, called the 'church':

"This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written, ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; from its ruins I will rebuild it, and I will set it up, so that all other peoples may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called. Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things known from long ago.’" (Acts 15:15-18 NRSV)

While not all OT prophecies are explained by the Apostles, I get their approach which is helpful on those prophecies which they are not recorded in the NT as explaining. Admittedly, there are prophecies in the OT that even the most learned of scholars do not claim to have a full and true understanding of them, such as Ezekiel chapters 40-48, which with a literal interpretation is absurd. John Gill comments on those:

"This and the eight following chapters contain a vision of a city and temple herein described, and are thought to be the most difficult part of the whole Bible. The Jews forbid the reading of it till a man is arrived to thirty years of age; and then he must expect to meet with things in it he does not understand, and which must be left until Elijah comes to explain them. Many Christian commentators have omitted the exposition of these chapters; and all acknowledge the difficulties in them."

Possibly some scholars/theologians/commentators try and rationalise to overturn the plainly written word at times as it does not fit in with their theological thinking

A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

​

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives. Zech ch12

 

[Arthur81]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my theological architecture. It is actually no more than the fundamental rule of interpretation that states that the clear, unquestionable statements of scripture are not to be contradicted, but are to be used to interpret the less clear passages. I use various scriptures to form an outline, or a framework for much of my understanding of God's word, especially important in eschatology. One very important topic I'll give in two passages that are key events. I quote:

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45 RSV)

**The land that was promised, had been given to Israel, and they possessed that land. It does not say they could have possessed if they had obeyed, but they POSSESSED IT. Not one of their enemies stopped them. NOT ONE OF THE GOOD PROMISES THE LORD MADE FAILED, ALL CAME TO PASS. and again 2 chapters further.

"Now, as you see, I am going the way of all mortals. You know in your heart of hearts, all of you, that nothing the Lord your God promised you has failed to come true, not one word of it. But the same Lord God who has kept his word to you to such good effect can equally bring every kind of evil on you, until he has rooted you out from this good land which he has given you. If you violate the covenant which the Lord your God has laid upon you and go and serve other gods and worship them, then the Lord’s anger will be roused against you and the good land he has given you will soon see you no more." (Josh 23:14-16 REB)

**Here it states again in another translation, the same fact that Israel possessed the promised land, and here the condition of obedience is made clear.

There is some biblical 'wiggle room' given that is common sense but not a wiggle room of 3400 years:

"I shall not drive them out all in one year, or the land would become waste and the wild beasts too many for you, but I shall drive them out little by little until you have grown numerous enough to take possession of the country." (Exod 23:29-30 REB)
and
"Little by little he will drive out these nations before you. You cannot exterminate them quickly, for fear the wild beasts become too numerous for you." (Deut 7:22 REB)

These statements in Joshua took place about 1400 BC, 3400 years ago, so Jews aren't today waiting for the promise to be completely fulfilled! I will believe the clear and emphatic word of God instead of the annotations found in some study Bibles.

I now have a key event recorded clearly for me that is part of my theological architecture. In any theory of eschatology, I know events and timing must agree with these clear statements in Joshua. The Baptist, John Gill(1697-1771) was an historical premillennialist, believing in the literal 1000-year personal reign of Christ after the second coming. Here are his comments on Joshua 21:45 -

There failed not ought of any good thing,.... Not only every good thing in general, but every part and particular of that good thing; that, with all that was included in it, or were appendages to it, or circumstances of it:

which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel; as of their deliverance out of Egypt, and passage through the Red sea and wilderness, with all conveniences for them therein; so of their passage through Jordan, success of their arms, the conquest of their enemies, possession of their land, a land flowing with milk and honey:

all came to pass; exactly, precisely, and punctually, even everything relative to their temporal and spiritual good: so all that God promises to his spiritual Israel, with respect to their present comfort or everlasting happiness, all is exactly fulfilled, all his promises in Christ are yea and amen.

NOTICE THAT JOHN GILL MAKES APPLICATION TO US NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS, THE "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL"!

 

[uncle silas]

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. Deut 30:1-5

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24

 

[Arthur81]

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. Deut 30:1-5

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke21:24

So, you are going to flat out say the word of God is wrong in Josh. 21:43-45 and 23:14-16? You actually think what you quoted contradicts those statements in Joshua? Do you really think God contradicts Himself?

I find another key time and related events that make up a part of my theological architecture and the time is recorded in several places in the scriptures. In the Revised English Bible, in Daniel 9:24 is the phrase "seventy times seven years are marked out for your people and your holy city", so we have a prophecy entailing a period of 490 years, and in v25 the start point is given, "from the time that the decree went forth that Jerusalem should be restored and rebuilt". The NRSV in v27 has the phrase "the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed."

There is absolutely no hint whatsoever in this passage in Daniel nine, that there is to be a gap of 2000+ years between the 69th and 70th week. To arbitrarily insert such a gap between these weeks is unheard of until some invented this theory in the 19th century to force the 490 years into their preconceived notion of eschatology. Allowing for some variation in the times, the 490 years ends in the first century AD and that will see the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, the temple. Then we come to the next time reference:

Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple and gave the timing of when it would happen, and the wording is the same in the 3 synoptic gospels and I'll give it from 3 translations, and it is as clear as language can make it! --

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." (Matt 24:34 NRSV)
"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died." (Matt 24:34 GNB92)
"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34 REB)

This happened in 70 AD, in the 1st century just like Daniel's prophecy of the 490 years came to fruition in the 1st century.

The 3rd record of events in the first century are from the book of Revelation. Now, the book was written when the temple was still standing:

"Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months." (Rev 11:1-2 NRSV) * It is incomprehensible to think that would be written if the temple had already been destroyed in 70 AD. In fact, it is amazing to the point of unbelief that the destruction of the temple was never mentioned as having already occurred anywhere in the NT. To arbitrarily insert 2000+ years between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel so as to make this a third temple in our future is pure nonsense!

The book of Revelation clearly gives the timing of when the book was written, as in the NRSV -
Rev. 1:1 "God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place"
Rev. 1:3 "keep what is written in it; for the time is near"
then repeated again at the closing of the book
Rev. 22:6 " to show his servants what must soon take place"
Rev. 22:10 "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near"

Most commentators see Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and Revelation as covering the same time period. I agree with that. WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS TO NOTICE THAT THE CLOSING OF DANIEL'S 490 YEARS COMES IN THE FIRST CENTURY; JESUS' PROPHECY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WAS TO TAKE PLACE IN THE FIRST CENTURY; THE BOOK OF REVELATION GIVES THE TIMING IN THE FIRST CENTURY REGARDING THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE. ALL THREE TIMINGS ARE IN AGREEMENT!

I am looking forward to "the last day" when the general resurrection and general judgment will take place! Jesus said there would not be any signs given for that, it comes when we aren't expecting it. Like a thief it comes upon us.

 

[uncle silas]

'''For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.''' verse 21

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. verse 34

In the segment it speak of the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light. In Rev ch8, it states a third of the moon and sun will not shine, meaning one third of the earth will be covered in darkness. It also stataes one third of the earth and trees will be burned up.
When, by 70AD did the world see horrors unequalled since the creation and have not been seen since?
When by 70AD was a third of the earth covered in darkness?
When by 70AD was a third of the land and trees burned up?
These prophecies can NOW come to fruition, man is capable of bringing them all to pass, but not by 70AD. It will be caused by an abomination that causes desolation. That exists now.
What horror was seen by 70 AD than was worse than the second world war?
50 million dead, 6 million Jews gassed to death. Babies used as bayonet practice in russia, two atomic bombs detonated?
THIS GENERATION(the one that would be alive at the time of these events) will not pass away until all these things have happened.
The prophets spoke with one voice. At a time in the future, God would return the Israelites to their biblical homeland and bless them there. In 1948 this happened, they became a nation again in at least part of their biblical homeland. You may look at it from a human perspective, the UN was behind it. But God will use whoever he wants to use to fulfill his purposes. Cyrus, Pharoah, even the united nations, anyone he wants to use, for he is God Almighty