Oddly OSAS

[GracePeace]

Since those who fall away from the faith are counted as having never been saved (their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten (Ez 18:24), their names blotted out of the Book of Life), in a way, those who have the faith never fall away, but continue on with the believers (1 Jn 2:19), which is, in an odd way, a form of OSAS--which frees me to accept and be comforted by the verses that speak of having been predestined, etc.

 

[MatthewG]

The book of life is the general collection of linage concerning Israel. I don’t expect to see my name in that book cause I’m not part of it, to begin with. That’s my opinion on that.

I heard a preach say the other day “is your name written in the book of life!” lol, no one raised their hand, he said it again? And just a few did!

They don’t know exactly what it is, and I believe it really is the book of life concerning those who were faithful and not faithful concerning Israel.

Why? Because Israel was destroyed while some being saved, from destruction! It was the wrap up of that age, of course that is my opinion. You have 144000 or some number of people being saved from the destruction relating to the 12 tribes, while the rest 1,000,000 people of that land was slaughtered and laid destroyed, with some slaves but I don’t think they were part of Abraham’s linage or tribes of that time period.

But again, it’s just a personal perspective… I ain’t worried about my name in the book of life… there is no reason to worry about it. And no one can claim they are part of a certain tribe cause they just don’t exist and there are no records to prove it.

 

[Marymog]

Since those who fall away from the faith are counted as having never been saved (their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten (Ez 18:24), their names blotted out of the Book of Life), in a way, those who have the faith never fall away, but continue on with the believers (1 Jn 2:19), which is, in an odd way, a form of OSAS--which frees me to accept and be comforted by the verses that speak of having been predestined, etc.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[MatthewG]

Would just also like to add, what the writer of Hebrews states

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[b]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Deu 11:16
“But be careful. Don’t let your heart be deceived so that you turn away from the LORD and serve and worship other gods."

Even "elect" was open to deception.

Matthew 24:24 English Standard Version 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

And people can look to people as idols or gods, and worship them, and their false humility.

Colossians 2: 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

There is a lot of warnings... even after Jesus came, died, was buried and was risen again, and ascended.

 

[GracePeace]

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Yes, those who fall away have the grace of faith removed. It is God's kindness that we are even GRANTED to believe. It is not common material that just anyone can have. It is God.

There are degrees of falling away, but if someone falls away irretrievably, their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten, their names blotted out, so... actually, they are counted as having never been saved at all. There is no memory of their having had faith--meanwhile, the ones remaining in faith were predestined, etc, and take comfort in trusting God--so if there's no trace of their salvation, no memory, they were never saved, and the conclusion is the saved are never lost because they are kept by God.

 

[GracePeace]

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

In Ezekiel 18:24 it says God forgets righteousness just like He forgets sin.

In the New Covenant, faith is counted as righteousness.

If God forgets you ever had faith, then you never had faith--just as the sins are removed as far away as the East is from the West, so, also, the memory of the person's faith is removed, their name blotted out, even though it had been there from before the foundation of the world.

But this means they can rightly be said, in a sense, to have never believed--because if they were of us they would've remained with us. That is comforting.

 

[GracePeace]

Having your cake and eating it too?

Much love!

Isn't it great!?

 

[marks]

Isn't it great!?

Why would it be? It's a false position. If you eat your cake, you don't still have it. If you still have it, you haven't eaten it.

And using Ezekiel 18 to define the New Covenant is the same kind of thing.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Why would it be? It's a false position.

How? LOL
There's no other way to make sense of the data.
There are verses that speak of falling away, and there are verses that speak of never falling away.
The only way to affirm both is to affirm God forgets righteousness--and, in the meantime, we trust God's attitude and Promises for the righteous. So, basically, is the same as your current position, except with the additional affirmation that those statements only belong to those righteous by faith, and those who irretrievably fall away are counted as though having never had righteousness of faith at all.

If you eat your cake, you don't still have it. If you still have it, you haven't eaten it.

Except God "forgets" righteousness.
I go by Biblical precedent, not by natural logic.

And using Ezekiel 18 to define the New Covenant is the same kind of thing.

Paul takes from the Old Covenant as scaffolding for describing the New Covenant all of the time.
My God doesn't change. He's the same yesterday today and forever.
He used to forget righteousness, and He still forgets righteousness--except today faith is counted as righteousness, and if He forgets faith that person is blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[marks]

My God doesn't change. He's the same yesterday today and forever.

Yes, that's true, and even so, He told Noah to build a boat, and Abraham that he'd have innumerable descedants, and you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. God didn't change, but His message to men did.

Tell me . . . do you believe this passage is fully and completely and exactly true?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Or do you add unwritten caveats?

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

In Ezekiel 18:24 it says God forgets righteousness just like He forgets sin.

In the New Covenant, faith is counted as righteousness.

If God forgets you ever had faith, then you never had faith--just as the sins are removed as far away as the East is from the West, so, also, the memory of the person's faith is removed, their name blotted out, even though it had been there from before the foundation of the world.

But this means they can rightly be said, in a sense, to have never believed--because if they were of us they would've remained with us. That is comforting.

Help me out here GracePeace,

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

VS 21: If you do stop sinning, you shall live. God forgives you of those sins.
VS 24: If a righteous man sins, God will forget all the righteous things he has done, and he shall die.

Sin cancels out righteousness, not faith. Where do any of those verses say that "faith is counted as righteousness"?

mary

 

[Behold]

(their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten

Once God accepts a person's Faith, then their "faith is counted (by God) as (Christ's) Righteousness.

He then takes the blood and death of Jesus and deals with all the believer's sin, as = "God hath made Jesus to BE SIN.. for us", as "Jesus is the ONE TIME Eternal Sacrifice for sin".

So, now that all Their SIN is dealt with, God then joins His Spirit, to the Spirit of the Believer, and this produces "BORN... again".

This happens once, and is eternal.. so, when you find heretics who probably are not saved, and certainly do not understand The Cross of Christ... teaching otherwise, then just put them on Ignore and keep them there., Reader.

 

[marks]

Either you are saved forever or you are not. This notion that a "lost salvation" is a "forgotten salvation" is as "never happened salvation" is a word game, and does not lead to truth. Either a saved person becomes unsaved or they don't.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, that's true, and even so, He told Noah to build a boat, and Abraham that he'd have innumerable descedants, and you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. God didn't change, but His message to men did.

Not sure how this is relevant--what I meant was if God forgot righteousness then, He still forgets it today.

Tell me . . . do you believe this passage is fully and completely and exactly true?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Or do you add unwritten caveats?

Much love!

Do you believe God forgets righteousness?

 

[GracePeace]

Help me out here GracePeace,

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

VS 21: If you do stop sinning, you shall live. God forgives you of those sins.
VS 24: If a righteous man sins, God will forget all the righteous things he has done, and he shall die.

Sin cancels out righteousness, not faith. Where do any of those verses say that "faith is counted as righteousness"?

mary

Ezekiel 18:24 presents a dynamic which is at play today--but, today, "faith is counted as righteousness", so when He forgets righteousness today He forgets the person ever had faith at all, so they were never saved, whereas the saved never lose salvation.

 

[GracePeace]

Either you are saved forever or you are not. This notion that a "lost salvation" is a "forgotten salvation" is as "never happened salvation" is a word game, and does not lead to truth. Either a saved person becomes unsaved or they don't.

Much love!

The person becomes in a category of having never been saved--those who have faith continue in it.

 

[GracePeace]

Once God accepts a person's Faith, then their "faith is counted (by God) as (Christ's) Righteousness.

He then takes the blood and death of Jesus and deals with all the believer's sin, as = "God hath made Jesus to BE SIN.. for us", as "Jesus is the ONE TIME Eternal Sacrifice for sin".

So, now that all Their SIN is dealt with, God then joins His Spirit, to the Spirit of the Believer, and this produces "BORN... again".

This happens once, and is eternal.. so, when you find heretics who probably are not saved, and certainly do not understand The Cross of Christ... teaching otherwise, then just put them on Ignore and keep them there., Reader.

Yeah, I agree--because if someone falls away none of these things was ever said of them.

 

[Marymog]

Yes, those who fall away have the grace of faith removed. It is God's kindness that we are even GRANTED to believe. It is not common material that just anyone can have. It is God.

There are degrees of falling away, but if someone falls away irretrievably, their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten, their names blotted out, so... actually, they are counted as having never been saved at all. There is no memory of their having had faith--meanwhile, the ones remaining in faith were predestined, etc, and take comfort in trusting God--so if there's no trace of their salvation, no memory, they were never saved, and the conclusion is the saved are never lost.

Nope, not true. One can have faith but still commit sins. And if you don't atone for those sins, you fall away from grace.

IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[marks]

Not sure how this is relevant--what I meant was if God forgot righteousness then, He still forgets it today.

Do you believe God forgets righteousness?

You didn't answer my question.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The person becomes in a category of having never been saved--those who have faith continue in it.

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those who go out never were truly in.

Much love!