Justified by Works

[GracePeace]

I don't know what's so difficult.
God gave us a way to save our souls.
Jesus explained HOW we do this.
Paul was writing to Jews that understood about THE LAW....

Seems pretty simple to me:
A person believes in God
And obeys His rules and regulations.

It's up to US to obey....it's not up to Jesus.
Jesus already obeyed God Father and did what He was supposed to do.


Whatever works a man does apart from knowing God are dead works.
James made this very clear.
Works do not save a person....this is exactly what it means.
Works without faith are dead works.
Faith without works is dead faith.
James 2:26

So, a person that does works - whatever they may be - but has no faith in God cannot be righteous.
He cannot be RIGHT WITH GOD since he does not have faith in God.



No.
We are righteous by our own works.
The NT refers to OUR works AFTER we have faith...
Jesus does not do the works for us.

You mentioned Romans 10:3
First of all, Romans 10 is addressing the salvation of the Jews....corporate salvation.

Second...what do you think it means?
God made provision for mankind's salvation...
We have to follow HIS rules not the rules WE make up.
The Jews were making up their own rules as to how to be saved.
It states that CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW.
Following rules and regulations WITH NO FAITH will save no one and the Jews could not or did not adhere
to the NEW way - the way of faith and grace - the way Jesus taught.

The Law was not sufficient and thus we must depend on the New Covenant.
This is all Paul meant.

We cannot create our own righteousness....
but must follow God's law in order to be righteous.



The above has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
Romans 2 is discussing those that did not KNOW God even existed but still followed their conscience...
It's like Romans 1:19-21.
Different topic, IMHO.

OK
I think we're throwing around the word righteous/righteousness here and I don't think we're using it the same way.

Here's what it means:

Dikaiosune, or righteousness, means living in right relationship with God, other people, and all creation. We act with righteousness when we live justly, honestly, and faithfully according to God's instruction.

Now....
WHO does the living in right relationship with God?
God?
or us?


So what comes first?
Righteousness or faith?

God finds that we have faith....
and He finds that this is what is needed to live a right relationship with God and so He declares us justified.




No again.
WE MUST BE GOOD.
Isn't this what Jesus taught?
Did He teach that GOD IS GOOD and so we don't need to worry about being good?

See, you're making this much more difficult than it is.
It's actually very simple.

We have to be good FOR GOD,,,,not for men. (although man does end up better for it).



I think it's good to stick close to scriptural language....
But we aren't with God because HE IS RIGHTEOUS...
we're with God because WE ARE RIGHTEOUS.

I think we need to stop saying that God is going to do everything for us as if we have no part in our salvation.

I had thought I had clarified it, but I'll just make a quick statement that may help : when people repent, it is because God's grace led them to repent (Ro 2), and when they repent and believe, that is counted as God's righteousness (Ro 4), so, yes, the men repented and believed, yet it was not a righteousness of their own, but God's righteousness. The Law relies on flesh (Ro 8:3), but Grace relies on God's working (Pp 2:12,13)--this does not mean that men are not at all involved (eg, when men repent, the men repent, but it is God's working and God's righteousness), it just means that one righteousness comes from God (eg, Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me"), and the other righteousness (the one Paul doesn't want (Php 3:9), and rails against (Gal 4:21-5:4) comes from flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you're already walking in God's righteousness by the fact that you are walking in your convictions (Ro 14:5,23).

These distinctions are only important for people who are reading very closely and who are wondering what the requirements are because Paul says salvation is by faith not works, but then seems to say things contrary to that.

Paul meant works as understood by Jews at that time.
Works meant the works of the law.
Paul stated works are necessary in every letter of his....
What he meant is that if we work without acknowledging God, our works are useless.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul meant works as understood by Jews at that time.
Works meant the works of the law.
Paul stated works are necessary in every letter of his....
What he meant is that if we work without acknowledging God, our works are useless.

Yep, "works" means "a righteousness of my own from the Law", including commands like "do not covet" (Ro 7:7), and, as I've clarified over and over, he teaches men to both have faith and walk in faith, which is not one's own righteousness, but God's (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23).

 

[GodsGrace]

It's OK.

If you don't find the conversation helpful, you don't need to venture in to it.

I think you're already walking in God's righteousness, not your own, by sticking with your convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23).

There's no need to get involved in the discussion because it may not help you, but confuse you, as it confused me.

We shouldn't be confused.
And I don't understand what you mean by God's Righteousness.

There are some that believe that we're saved by the righteousness of God and not our own.
They say that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

This is incorrect.
The NT teaches that God does indeed see our works - done in faith.
Faith first
and then works.
Believe and Obey.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

We need both and I think this needs to be stated clearly.

 

[GracePeace]

We shouldn't be confused.
And I don't understand what you mean by God's Righteousness.

There are some that believe that we're saved by the righteousness of God and not our own.
They say that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

This is incorrect.

"Our own righteousness" refers to righteousness that we generate, as I've clarified the Law relies on flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3; Heb 8:7, 8).

Philippians 3
9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ,a the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

The righteousness of God is what God works first, and that we walk in by faith (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23).

The NT teaches that God does indeed see our works - done in faith.
Faith first
and then works.
Believe and Obey.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

We need both and I think this needs to be stated clearly.

Yep, I've stated it clearly.

 

[GracePeace]

Yep, I've stated it clearly.

@GodsGrace Look at the title of the thread, and read the OP--and, really, everything I've said--from start to finish, I've said men need to not only have faith but also walk in faith. If you think otherwise, you're confused , though you've said we shouldn't be.

 

[GodsGrace]

I had thought I had clarified it, but I'll just make a quick statement that may help : when people repent, it is because God's grace led them to repent (Ro 2), and when they repent and believe,

Agreed. Let's just clarify that this grace is available to all....
Some call it prevenient grace....
God makes the first move but man must reply.

that is counted as God's righteousness (Ro 4), so, yes, the men repented and believed,

Where does Romans 4 speak of God's righteousnes?
I don't see it.
Romans 4 speaks of Abraham being made righteous through his faith BEFORE he did any works.
BECAUSE he had FAITH in God.
As stated, it's faith that saves us and not our works....
Works MUST HAVE faith in order for them to be worthy to God.
Romans 4 states that righteousness was reckoned to Abraham.
To Abraham....
Verse 12 states that man must not be merely circumcised but follow the example of FAITH, which Abraham had
before he was circumcised.

yet it was not a righteousness of their own, but God's righteousness.

Again, you use words that are not found in Romans 4....

The Law relies on flesh (Ro 8:3), but Grace relies on God's working (Pp 2:12,13)--this does not mean that men are not at all involved (eg, when men repent, the men repent, but it is God's working and God's righteousness),

Correct. It is God, the Holy Spirit, working in us.
To help us.
But how is it God's righteousness?
Could you give some verses?

it just means that one righteousness comes from God (eg, Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me"), and the other righteousness comes from men.

??
No righteousness comes from men.
What does being righteous have to do with men?
We are righteous or we are not.
We are right with God or we are not.
That's all righteous means.

 

[GracePeace]

Agreed. Let's just clarify that this grace is available to all....
Some call it prevenient grace....
God makes the first move but man must reply.

I'm saying it works the same way throughout the life of a Christian--God's grace works, then men walk in it by faith.

Where does Romans 4 speak of God's righteousnes?
I don't see it.
Romans 4 speaks of Abraham being made righteous through his faith BEFORE he did any works.
BECAUSE he had FAITH in God.
As stated, it's faith that saves us and not our works....
Works MUST HAVE faith in order for them to be worthy to God.
Romans 4 states that righteousness was reckoned to Abraham.
To Abraham....
Verse 12 states that man must not be merely circumcised but follow the example of FAITH, which Abraham had
before he was circumcised.

Again, you use words that are not found in Romans 4....

From Ro 3:21-4, it refers to God's righteousness--in Ro 4, it says God is "just" (which means "righteous") and the justifier of the one who believes in Christ.

Correct. It is God, the Holy Spirit, working in us.
To help us.
But how is it God's righteousness?
Could you give some verses?

Ro 1:17, 3:21.

??
No righteousness comes from men.
What does being righteous have to do with men?
We are righteous or we are not.
We are right with God or we are not.
That's all righteous means.

Philippians 3:9 "not having a righteousness of my own from the Law"--there is a righteousness of one's own. Every time someone does what is "right", but it is not done by God, not from knowing God, not from conviction from God and done as unto God (Ro 14:5,23), that is a righteousness of one's own from knowing good and evil (the Law is a specific form of knowledge of good and evil, but all men have an idea of what they think is right and wrong, and many trust in their own righteousness, eg, Lk 18 "and trusted in themselves that they were righteous").

 

[GodsGrace]

"Our own righteousness" refers to righteousness that we generate, as I've clarified the Law relies on flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3; Heb 8:7, 8).

Philippians 3
9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ,a the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.

But the law is dead.
We cannot have "our own righteousness".

I think you might want to stop using righteousness as you do.
The ONLY righteousness we have is from faith in God/Jesus.
If we want to be right with God, we must have faith in God.

The righteousness of God is what God works first, and that we walk in by faith (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23).

Like what for instance?
The righteousness of God just means that God is right and that He'll keep His promises.
(to bless those that keep His word/commandments).

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm saying it works the same way throughout the life of a Christian--God's grace works, then men walk in it by faith.

From Ro 3:21-4, it refers to God's righteousness--in Ro 4, it says God is "just" (which means "righteous") and the justifier of the one who believes in Christ.

Ro 1:17, 3:21.

Philippians 3:9 "not having a righteousness of my own from the Law"--there is a righteousness of one's own. Every time someone does what is "right", but it is not done by God, not from knowing God, not from conviction from God and done as unto God (Ro 14:5,23), that is a righteousness of one's own from knowing good and evil (the Law is a specific form of knowledge of good and evil, but all men have an idea of what they think is right and wrong, and many trust in their own righteousness, eg, Lk 18 "and trusted in themselves that they were righteous").

OK
I think we're on the same page...
but the wording you use is new to me....
Your last paragraph explains well what I believe and have been posting.

 

[GracePeace]

But the law is dead.

The Law is not dead, it was never alive.

We cannot have "our own righteousness".

Philippians 3 "not having a righteousness of my own", "Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”
Yes, there is a righteousness from the Law men strive for--they are wrong for seeking to establish their own righteousness and not submitting to God's righteousness (Ro 10:3).

I think you might want to stop using righteousness as you do.
The ONLY righteousness we have is from faith in God/Jesus.

No, I'll keep using it as the Bible uses it.

If we want to be right with God, we must have faith in God.

Yep.

Like what for instance?
The righteousness of God just means that God is right and that He'll keep His promises.
(to bless those that keep His word/commandments).

No, God's righteousness is the entire Christian life, from start to finish--as stated, His goodness leads men to repentance, and when they repent and believe, they are counted righteous, but it is God's righteousness that did it and that they have, bc Christ's name is "God Is Our Righteousness (Jer 23:6). After, God continues working, as it says God works in us to will and do for His pleasure (Pp 2:12,13), and we are to obey that working, and that is God's righteousness.

 

[GracePeace]

OK
I think we're on the same page...
but the wording you use is new to me....
Your last paragraph explains well what I believe and have been posting.

The wording I am using is mainly for people who wrangle about Paul, and misunderstand Paul--I'm simply arguing that when men walk in faith, and are justified at the judgment for so doing (Ro 2), that is not a man justifying himself by his works, because those are not "works" in the sense Paul is using the word in Romans, because, in Romans, "works" pertains to "a righteousness of my own from the Law", but when men walk in faith, that is God working in them to will and to do for His good pleasure, so when they are justified on the Day of Judgment for being "doers of the Law", that will have been God's righteousness justifying them, not themselves by their "works" which word corresponds to "a righteousness of my own" not God's righteousness He works in believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

The wording I am using is mainly for people who wrangle about Paul, and misunderstand Paul--I'm simply arguing that when men walk in faith, and are justified at the judgment for so doing (Ro 2), that is not a man justifying himself by his works, because those are not "works" in the sense Paul is using the word in Romans, because, in Romans, "works" pertains to "a righteousness of my own from the Law", but when men walk in faith, that is God working in them to will and to do for His good pleasure, so when they are justified on the Day of Judgment for being "doers of the Law", that will have been God's righteousness justifying them, not themselves by their "works" which word corresponds to "a righteousness of my own" not God's righteousness He works in believers.

But we are justified now....
no need to wait till the day of judgment.
Unless you mean that we could always decide to walk away from God
and so won't be sure of our salvation till that day.
(which is a biblical understanding).

 

[GracePeace]

OK
I think we're on the same page...
but the wording you use is new to me....
Your last paragraph explains well what I believe and have been posting.

This discussion is aimed at people who say "I am saved by faith alone, and my behavior after I am saved cannot change that, because Paul says I am saved by faith alone, not works."

They are misreading Paul.

This is why I say it is easier to understand the argument in Romans if we see that Paul wants men to be justified, and he refers to two potential righteousnesses people may rely on to get them justified. We are not justified by (righteousness of our own) "works", we are justified by (God's righteousness) grace through faith.

Therefore, yes, behavior after faith CAN affect one's standing before God (eg, the one who does what he does not believe he ought to do is sinning and is CONDEMNED not JUSTIFIED Ro 14:23), and STILL we are not being saved or justified by (a righteousness of my own) "works".

 

[GracePeace]

But we are justified now....
no need to wait till the day of judgment.
Unless you mean that we could always decide to walk away from God
and so won't be sure of our salvation till that day.
(which is a biblical understanding).

Yes, we are justified by God's righteousness now, and, yet, there must be an ongoing assessment, or else the one who does what he does not believe could not be "condemned" (Ro 14:23), and there would be no talk of justification at the upcoming judgment (Ro 2:6-16).

We also already can know have eternal life now , yet Ro 2 speaks of being repaid eternal life at the judgment (Ro 2). This gets in to the reality that men must ABIDE in Christ. Yes, if we are IN CHRIST, we have the eternal life that is IN THE SON (1 Jn 5:11), but not all abide in Him where the life is (eg, Jn 15; 1 Jn 2:28), so, there is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST (Ro 8:1), but abiding in Him is by keeping His Commands to believe in His Name AND to love one another (1 Jn 3:23,24), so the one who does not walk in faith ("faith works by love" Gal 5) is breaking the command to walk in love and is therefore not abiding and is therefore exposed to condemnation (Ro 14:23).

 

[GodsGrace]

This discussion is aimed at people who say "I am saved by faith alone, and my behavior after I am saved cannot change that, because Paul says I am saved by faith alone, not works."

They are misreading Paul.

This is why I say it is easier to understand the argument in Romans if we see that Paul wants men to be justified, and he refers to two potential righteousnesses people may rely on to get them justified. We are not justified by (righteousness of our own) "works", we are justified by (God's righteousness) grace through faith.

Therefore, yes, behavior after faith CAN affect one's standing before God (eg, the one who does what he does not believe he ought to do is sinning and is CONDEMNED not JUSTIFIED Ro 14:23), and STILL we are not being saved or justified by (a righteousness of my own) "works".

Of course they're misreading Paul...I hear this all the time.
Some believe that being baptized is a work.
Obeying is a work.
EVERYTHING is a work.
There was a member (not here) that stated clearly that obeying God is a work because we're not letting God work for us
but we're working for our own benefit and so are trying to "save ourselves".

Now, the Jews at the time of Jesus were criticized because they were trying to find a different way of being right with God
but would not follow the teachings of Jesus to believe and obey.

They believed that they had to obey the Law 613 commandments, in order to be saved.
They basically were slaves to God instead of friends to God.
I'd call this being self-righteous, a righteousness created by man but has nothing to do with how God wants us to be righteous...be right with Him.

Paul was not against works....
He was against works of The Law that could not save.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we are justified by God's righteousness now, and, yet, there must be an ongoing assessment, or else the one who does what he does not believe could not be "condemned" (Ro 14:23), and there would be no talk of justification at the upcoming judgment (Ro 2:6-16).

We also already can know have eternal life now , yet Ro 2 speaks of being repaid eternal life at the judgment (Ro 2). This gets in to the reality that men must ABIDE in Christ. Yes, if we are IN CHRIST, we have the eternal life that is IN THE SON (1 Jn 5:11), but not all abide in Him where the life is (eg, Jn 15; 1 Jn 2:28), so, there is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST (Ro 8:1), but abiding in Him is by keeping His Commands to believe in His Name AND to love one another (1 Jn 3:23,24), so the one who does not walk in faith ("faith works by love" Gal 5) is breaking the command to walk in love and is therefore not abiding and is therefore exposed to condemnation (Ro 14:23).

Right.
Believe and obey and abide is always in the present tense.
An on-going assessment to put it your way.

 

[GracePeace]

Of course they're misreading Paul...I hear this all the time.
Some believe that being baptized is a work.
Obeying is a work.
EVERYTHING is a work.
There was a member (not here) that stated clearly that obeying God is a work because we're not letting God work for us
but we're working for our own benefit and so are trying to "save ourselves".

Now, the Jews at the time of Jesus were criticized because they were trying to find a different way of being right with God
but would not follow the teachings of Jesus to believe and obey.

They believed that they had to obey the Law 613 commandments, in order to be saved.
They basically were slaves to God instead of friends to God.
I'd call this being self-righteous, a righteousness created by man but has nothing to do with how God wants us to be righteous...be right with Him.

Paul was not against works....
He was against works of The Law that could not save.

They were not wrong to think they had to keep the Law, but they were wrong in thinking that they COULD, because the Law was a "test" to see if men would be HONEST about their condition of slavery to sin, or whether they would hypocritically condemn others for not keeping the Law while they themselves did ALSO not keep the Law (eg, when Christ says "he who is without sin let him cast the first stone"). They were slaves, not sons, because the Law produces slaves (Ga; 4:21-31) who invariably serve out of fear (Ro 8:15)--and I'm glad you raised the nuance of the slave versus the friend.

 

[GracePeace]

Of course they're misreading Paul...I hear this all the time.
Some believe that being baptized is a work.
Obeying is a work.
EVERYTHING is a work.
There was a member (not here) that stated clearly that obeying God is a work because we're not letting God work for us
but we're working for our own benefit and so are trying to "save ourselves".

Yes, this is why I am saying that WALKING IN FAITH is God's righteousness, thus it does not qualify as a "work" (a righteousness of my own).

 

[GodsGrace]

They were not wrong to think they had to keep the Law, but they were wrong in thinking that they COULD, because the Law was a "test" to see if men would be HONEST about their condition of slavery to sin, or whether they would hypocritically condemn others for not keeping the Law while they themselves did ALSO not keep the Law (eg, when Christ says "he who is without sin let him cast the first stone"). They were slaves, not sons, because the Law produces slaves (Ga; 4:21-31) who invariably serve out of fear (Ro 8:15)--and I'm glad you raised the nuance of the slave versus the friend.

And herein lies the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant !