Why no question?

[face2face]

Well, not with the definition that the modern church puts on "angel."

If one would define Malaakim ("angels") as being essentially the same as Malakim ("kings"), it all makes a certain amount of sense.

Angel simply means messenger which is why you find the word applying to both human and angelic messengers.

 

[face2face]

You are mistaken f2f. Jesus clearly identifies Satan as a malevolent being as does the book of Revelation even while the OT doesn't......and your denial suites his purposes.

What we have found is the Genesis record is descriptive of an animal with carnal voice and while the Revelation uses its symbol, nowhere in the Word is Heavenly Rebellion taught...only exists in the figment of your imagination.

It's hard believing in something you cannot prove - frustrating in fact.

F2F

 

[Wick Stick]

Angel simply means messenger which is why you find the word applying to both human and angelic messengers.

The Hebrew is more like ambassador or delegate. It comes with a measure of authority that is a bit more than messenger implies.

 

[face2face]

The Hebrew is more like ambassador or delegate. It comes with a measure of authority that is a bit more than messenger implies.

Yes, the Word of God is far more nuanced than many understand. First understanding the word and then the context and setting is important to interpret correctly. The many uses of the word "Love" is a case in point.

People read the word satan and in their minds eye they see:


God's Word has not constructed this image from a Word - this is Mythology with a touch of Hollywood and has nothing at all to do with the word adversary (satan).

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

What we have found is the Genesis record is descriptive of an animal with carnal voice and while the Revelation uses its symbol, nowhere in the Word is Heavenly Rebellion taught...only exists in the figment of your imagination.

It's hard believing in something you cannot prove - frustrating in fact.

F2F

Your approach in justifying yourself f2f is to put the other persons view down. You assume if you use 'muscle' in this way you have an advantage.
Attempting to reveal something to a person who is sure they already know is a exercise in futility so I will leave you to figments of your imagination.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, the Word of God is far more nuanced than many understand. First understanding the word and then the context and setting is important to interpret correctly. The many uses of the word "Love" is a case in point.

People read the word satan and in their minds eye they see:
View attachment 49932

God's Word has not constructed this image from a Word - this is Mythology with a touch of Hollywood and has nothing at all to do with the word adversary (satan).

F2F

It is clear this is what you see in your minds eye .....all the while attempting to foist it onto the minds eye of others.

 

[face2face]

Your approach in justifying yourself f2f is to put the other persons view down. You assume if you use 'muscle' in this way you have an advantage.
Attempting to reveal something to a person who is sure they already know is a exercise in futility so I will leave you to figments of your imagination.

The issue is in the reading of the text, you know what its clearly states but you also know what you want it to say but can't prove.
F2F

 

[face2face]

It is clear this is what you see in your minds eye .....all the while attempting to foist it onto the minds eye of others.

Clear?
Show me the vision of what you have in your mind explained in the Word.
Happy to consider it
F2F

 

[face2face]

Thanks @IndianaRob for this list.

I'll work with the first one which clearly speaks to the Description of the animal serpent from Genesis 3

- The serpent on the pole is an excellent one, especially how it relates to the crucified Lord.

The first Divine Principle we want to understand from this story in Number 21:8-9 is:

Jesus in speaking to the Master in Israel (Nicodemus) who missed the point that law could do nothing for the sting of death 1 Cor 15:55-57

“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1 Co 15:55–56.

So the Serpent "sting" is the power of sin which is located in the flesh.

So the Law of Moses could do nothing to solve the problem of the Law of sin & death

This was one such lesson from the Serpent on the pole.

The Serpent from Genesis being an animal with carnal voice represents flesh which leads to sin.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Israel was a fallen messenger.

True Matthew - hence why they were broken off but as Paul teaches they can (and will) be grafted back into their tree.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Not all of Israel was Israel, which was true Israel.

Correct - a purging is coming sadly - many will be lost but you are right...true Israel will be revealed!

Anyway buddy, I have you on ignore here but all the best to you.

View attachment 49934

No worries buddy...just don't put the Word on ignore like some do ;)

F2F

 

[IndianaRob]

Israel became fallen messenger, angel. Israel was Satan. Satan represented everything against Yahavah. They desired their own will over Yahavah, worshiped the law to be seen as perfect, and also put the Son of God to death.

Satan was nothing more than a puppet the represented everything against Yahavah...

Fallen angel from the heavens? The Lake of fire for Satan and his Angels... ETC ETC.

Idk what else to say, and you can't just strip Satan from the bible, it's in the bible.

Good luck @face2face.

View attachment 49933

Do you agree that this is Satan?

Ezk 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezk 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[face2face]

Israel became fallen messenger, angel. Israel was Satan. Satan represented everything against Yahavah. They desired their own will over Yahavah, worshiped the law to be seen as perfect, and also put the Son of God to death.

Satan was nothing more than a puppet the represented everything against Yahavah...

Fallen angel from the heavens? The Lake of fire for Satan and his Angels... ETC ETC.

Idk what else to say, and you can't just strip Satan from the bible, it's in the bible.

Good luck @face2face.

View attachment 49933

Yeah it's been proven the identity of the adverary is likely to be en envious brother in his community. This adversary has no power at all - just jealous of Gods treatment of Job and his many sheep.

 

[face2face]

Do you agree that this is Satan?

Ezk 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezk 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

No, to many its an unknown lament to the King of Tyre

28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Eze 28:11–12.

If you ever want it explained in context - the lessons are rather amazing! It's some of the most beautifully written work in the OT. Hidden wisdom which natural Israel understood perfectly.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Thanks @IndianaRob for this list.

I'll work with the first one which clearly speaks to the Description of the animal serpent from Genesis 3

- The serpent on the pole is an excellent one, especially how it relates to the crucified Lord.

The first Divine Principle we want to understand from this story in Number 21:8-9 is:

Jesus in speaking to the Master in Israel (Nicodemus) who missed the point that law could do nothing for the sting of death 1 Cor 15:55-57

“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1 Co 15:55–56.

So the Serpent "sting" is the power of sin which is located in the flesh.

So the Law of Moses could do nothing to solve the problem of the Law of sin & death

This was one such lesson from the Serpent on the pole.

The Serpent from Genesis being an animal with carnal voice represents flesh which leads to sin.

F2F

@IndianaRob

Notice this lesson for Nicodemus?

21:6 So the Lord sent poisonous snakes among the people, and they bit the people; many people of Israel died. 21:7 Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord that he would take away the snakes from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a poisonous snake and set it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 21:9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it on a pole, so that if a snake had bitten someone, when any man looked at the bronze snake he lived Nu 21:6–9.

The Master in Israel did not read of salvation of the Gentiles....anyone & any man!

Compare....can you see it?

3:8 The wind blows wherever it will, (Gentiles) and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus didnt realise the stranger in their camps were also saved from the sting of the serpents bite.

For Nicodemus he could only see Israel

It not disimilar to the Christians in the forum - they can only see some supernatural fallen angel and not the actual true meaning of the text.

The hidden things belong to God

F2F

Note: its the looking which saved them...Jesus uses the word believes in John 3

 

[face2face]

When Peter was “in the flesh” Jesus said get thee behind me SATAN.

While this verse has nothing to do with the literal animal serpent, the word satan is given a definition by the Lord himself.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” Matt 16:23

So satan relates to the "things of man" standing in the way of Christ going to the cross.

Rather easy this to explain @IndianaRob

In other words here Peter was showing his protection of Christ thinking he could protect him with his own human strenght as he later showed by cutting of the ear of Malcus.

Again, Christian minds have been infected with mythological ideas.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Is there two Greek words or just one for Satan, @face2face. It seems God gave him the power to do what he wanted and thus he did what he wanted expect to kill Job. Do you accept job as a viable source concerning Satan or?

You don't have an origin story Matthew! You need an anchor text, verses, chapter to provide all those false notions which Christians love to tickle each other with.

What’s your take on that? Cause I do still believe there was a fallen angel that possessed an animal orangutan , and that was what spoke to Eve.

Evidence is everything - a cunning animal with voice which was cursed as an animal, and with the animals - that's all you have!

Maybe that is what happened, cause I’m not so sure they could see the angels but physical beings, such as animals. Just thought I’d get your take on that, I know many may see a snake but that word is “observer.” It can be taken as such, there is Ha’Satan (which is the fallen angel.) then there is another word for adversary.

Angels are eternal beings whose existence is by the Pure and Holy Spirit of God - How sin? What would that make God?

“Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Ge 3:22.

When I say it would never be allowed, as a mortal, you can forget it happening as a Holy Eternal Angel (actaully impossible!)

Forget it Matthew

F2F

 

[face2face]

Even angels left their abode. I can’t just forget it.


Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Human messengers (angels)

You need to study that section very carefully Matthew

But nice try going to Jude for your origin story - com'on you are smarter than that!

F2F

 

[face2face]

I’m not trying to prove anything, I’m just sharing what the Bible says.

I get that - its what people do - they read and than attach notions to it.

See, leaving your first estate means to leave your original position within the community. So going back into the OT to find where the writers mind was is important in finding truth.

Are you a Christian? Or a believer in Yeshua? Or a Jehovah witness? Or a Mormon?

I'm a Christian.

You keep making comments that make me believe your against it as a whole.

Most of Christianity has been decieved with wrong teaching

It makes me think if your not or you shouldn’t even be posting on these sections of the forums.

I feel the same when people like youself make uninformed posts stating unthruths about things you are yet to look into for yourself.

As you will find...many cannot overcome evidence based truth.

I always recommend people search the Word for themselves and confirm what is being said by "proving all things"

Take your Jude quote.

If Jesus saud to you...you have that wrong...what would you do?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@MatthewG

Lets try something.

Can you go back to your Jude quote and count how many OT stories are being alluded to?

Come back with an answer

F2F