Fornication

[Zeth4500]

Hello, so, i have something to confess and i seek guidance.

Im in a Long Distance Relationship (LDR) and we are engaged. We got engaged 2023 october 4th. I became a christian i believe .. march 2023, and before that i had about 30 sexual partners.
I met one woman not too long before my now fiancée, and she pressured me into having sex before even getting engaged, and it was also LDR. With nightmarish jetlag and so much more to it, my mind wasnt clear and i agreed to have sex before even being engaged with her. Long story short- i broke up with her 3-4 days after meeting her.
I was running out of time, and against many many odds, i managed to meet one woman- on friendly terms, entirely friendly terms. Very attractive but we were both totally in on only meeting as friends. Zero flirting what so ever before meeting. About.. 10 days later, i was engaged for the first time in my life. I asked her virtually any relationship question the internet could seek out. We both have our issues and im still sure its her that i want for the rest of my life.
We did not for the rest of my stay in her country have "sex", at least we didnt go all the way. Before getting engaged we held hands, kissed and cuddled. Shes no easy girl, she only had one guy before me. Im quite impure in contrast.

Ive looked much into the bible and i dont find anything on engagement, and i find mentions that the marriage is the agreement. People in biblical times would get married as soon as 2 weeks after meeting each other.
I know twisting the words of the bible, is essentially lying which im very much against, and naturally i dont want to anger god.
My fiancée and me both have high sex drives, we very much wanted to go all the way before i left but we held out and that was great.

Fastforward about 6 months, she moves closer to me (its a process to go through due to our governments interfering in natural relationships.. you dont even have a RIGHT to marry!)
So, i finally meet her again, and we already talked a lot about it and we think now we held out so long, and we talked so much, connected so much and shes leaving her entire world behind just to come closer to me- so we went all the way.
She did question me a bit if its okay for us to do it all, and im still completely confident that i want her and that shes the one for me.
We all sin. I understand, repentance is to not plan any sins and avoid sinning and even temptation. We are scheduled to meet in about a week again after we havent met the whole summer (about 3 months). She joked around not wanting to have sex this time before, she always likes to annoy me a bit. Now that i bring it up she isnt having it and even goes to say that she needs sex and asking me if its okay she has it with someone else?
I know she doesnt mean that, i know her better than she do. She is very frustrated that we already had sex, and if we didnt have sex already- then it wouldnt be a big deal, but now since we have- then she would feel really bad about being without it- especially since we have looked so much forward to giving each other all kinds of love again.

We are no virgins, and we have already passed that limit. We are engaged and we are both determined that we want each other, we would be married already if it wasnt because of the government having to put us through all these bizarre processes to determine whether they will allow us to get married.

I believe the bible claims divorce is justified if the man neglects her womans sexual needs, and shes very clearly expressing me that its a real need to her. (i know, im so lucky...)
Exodus 21:7-11
I want to hold out until marriage, but i also dont want to deprive her as i already took her as my wife.
If she is my wife then its a sin to neglect her needs. If she is not my wife, its a sin to have premarital sex.

We dont meet all the time so i really dont want the little time we do get to spend together to be bad.
I really feel stuck in between commiting 2 different sins. Should i just tie her up and tickle her until shes not in mood anymore??? And, what is allowed to do before being "married"? Are we even allowed to look into each others eyes?

Personal attacks and advice are welcome.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your confession. You are clearly concerned about your relationship with God, and that is wonderful.

The Bible is clear that God wants you to restrict sexual relations to a marriage between a man and a woman. Disobeying God for fleeting, forbidden sexual pleasure will estrange you from God.

An interesting example: Jonah disobeyed God, tried to flee by boat, and fell into a deep sleep; then a supernatural storm arose. Finally, the captain took action:

Jonah 1:6—-So the captain came to him, and said to him, “What do you mean, sleeper? Arise, call on your God; perhaps your God will consider us, so that we may not perish.”

Can you imagine the anguish Jonah felt, being asked to pray to God for help in his current unrepentant situation?

Time for prayer. God will surely answer your desire to obey him. Perhaps a frank discussion with your fiancée?

Best wishes to you both. Have a long and fruitful life.

 

[Zeth4500]

Perhaps a frank discussion with your fiancée?

Yes and i understand her point of view, apart from the disappointment- she also believes we are man and wife already. And, its my duty to fulfill her needs.

I agree sinning is not the way to go, but we do live apart and its very difficult. We do live quite pure lives with virtually just this one thing sticking out.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hello, so, i have something to confess and i seek guidance.

Im in a Long Distance Relationship (LDR) and we are engaged. We got engaged 2023 october 4th. I became a christian i believe .. march 2023, and before that i had about 30 sexual partners.
I met one woman not too long before my now fiancée, and she pressured me into having sex before even getting engaged, and it was also LDR. With nightmarish jetlag and so much more to it, my mind wasnt clear and i agreed to have sex before even being engaged with her. Long story short- i broke up with her 3-4 days after meeting her.
I was running out of time, and against many many odds, i managed to meet one woman- on friendly terms, entirely friendly terms. Very attractive but we were both totally in on only meeting as friends. Zero flirting what so ever before meeting. About.. 10 days later, i was engaged for the first time in my life. I asked her virtually any relationship question the internet could seek out. We both have our issues and im still sure its her that i want for the rest of my life.
We did not for the rest of my stay in her country have "sex", at least we didnt go all the way. Before getting engaged we held hands, kissed and cuddled. Shes no easy girl, she only had one guy before me. Im quite impure in contrast.

Ive looked much into the bible and i dont find anything on engagement, and i find mentions that the marriage is the agreement. People in biblical times would get married as soon as 2 weeks after meeting each other.
I know twisting the words of the bible, is essentially lying which im very much against, and naturally i dont want to anger god.
My fiancée and me both have high sex drives, we very much wanted to go all the way before i left but we held out and that was great.

Fastforward about 6 months, she moves closer to me (its a process to go through due to our governments interfering in natural relationships.. you dont even have a RIGHT to marry!)
So, i finally meet her again, and we already talked a lot about it and we think now we held out so long, and we talked so much, connected so much and shes leaving her entire world behind just to come closer to me- so we went all the way.
She did question me a bit if its okay for us to do it all, and im still completely confident that i want her and that shes the one for me.
We all sin. I understand, repentance is to not plan any sins and avoid sinning and even temptation. We are scheduled to meet in about a week again after we havent met the whole summer (about 3 months). She joked around not wanting to have sex this time before, she always likes to annoy me a bit. Now that i bring it up she isnt having it and even goes to say that she needs sex and asking me if its okay she has it with someone else?
I know she doesnt mean that, i know her better than she do. She is very frustrated that we already had sex, and if we didnt have sex already- then it wouldnt be a big deal, but now since we have- then she would feel really bad about being without it- especially since we have looked so much forward to giving each other all kinds of love again.

We are no virgins, and we have already passed that limit. We are engaged and we are both determined that we want each other, we would be married already if it wasnt because of the government having to put us through all these bizarre processes to determine whether they will allow us to get married.

I believe the bible claims divorce is justified if the man neglects her womans sexual needs, and shes very clearly expressing me that its a real need to her. (i know, im so lucky...)
Exodus 21:7-11
I want to hold out until marriage, but i also dont want to deprive her as i already took her as my wife.
If she is my wife then its a sin to neglect her needs. If she is not my wife, its a sin to have premarital sex.

We dont meet all the time so i really dont want the little time we do get to spend together to be bad.
I really feel stuck in between commiting 2 different sins. Should i just tie her up and tickle her until shes not in mood anymore??? And, what is allowed to do before being "married"? Are we even allowed to look into each others eyes?

Personal attacks and advice are welcome.

I don’t understand the government thing….explain.

As for as you, you seem to have an odd understanding of intimate relationships and biblical concepts of intimate relationships. Do you know what love is? What it looks like in action? You might consider a therapist.

As far as the logical side of it….don’t have sex with a woman unless you are in love with her. Christians do not act like animals, act responsively. Sex is designed for procreation….when you have sex it can potentially affect the lives of children.

As far as the Bible…..If you have sex with a woman…..you are married. The Bible does not stipulate a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married. The physical union consummates the marriage.

If you do not stay with her that is not as sin, but you are still married. The Jewish process of divorce does not follow into Christianity. If you have sex with someone else that is adultery.

and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Matthew 19:5-6

The Protestants were the first to make a church wedding ceremony a requirement to be married in the 16th century…..a very wise choice. But it you have sex and stay together there is no sin. No sin to desire each other, but love should be part of the equation.

You….like lot of people have seriously messed up because they do not understand the truth. Casual sex can be very hurtful. Have some respect for yourself and others.

Lucky for you Christ died for you so that you do not have to be perfect. Have a real conversation with Christ….confess your sins ….Which is actually admitting them to yourself….Repent knowing you did wrong, with the intent to never do them again. And ask forgiveness….conscience clear from there and from there be good and do good.

Love is about respect and compassion for the one you love.

 

[Bob]

I don’t understand the government thing….explain.

As for as you, you seem to have an odd understanding of intimate relationships and biblical concepts of intimate relationships. Do you know what love is? What it looks like in action? You might consider a therapist.

As far as the logical side of it….don’t have sex with a woman unless you are in love with her. Christians do not act like animals, act responsively. Sex is designed for procreation….when you have sex it can potentially affect the lives of children.

As far as the Bible…..If you have sex with a woman…..you are married. The Bible does not stipulate a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married. The physical union consummates the marriage.

If you do not stay with her that is not as sin, but you are still married. The Jewish process of divorce does not follow into Christianity. If you have sex with someone else that is adultery.

and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Matthew 19:5-6

The Protestants were the first to make a church wedding ceremony a requirement to be married in the 16th century…..a very wise choice. But it you have sex and stay together there is no sin. No sin to desire each other, but love should be part of the equation.

You….like lot of people have seriously messed up because they do not understand the truth. Casual sex can be very hurtful. Have some respect for yourself and others.

Lucky for you Christ died for you so that you do not have to be perfect. Have a real conversation with Christ….confess your sins ….Which is actually admitting them to yourself….Repent knowing you did wrong, with the intent to never do them again. And ask forgiveness….conscience clear from there and from there be good and do good.

Love is about respect and compassion for the one you love.

Thank you for your detailed response to Zeth45.

Perhaps you could clarify some of your statements: I am extremely interested in the history of marriage, since wedding ceremonies are found in almost every culture and among almost all indigenous peoples. Are you suggesting they were all recently developed?

Are you sure the Hebrew people had nothing special to mark the inception of a marriage? Could it be that nothing is prescribed by Mosiac Law because a marriage ritual was taken for granted?

The Romans had formal ceremonies; could it be that those date to Roman tribal beginnings? We know that the text for Hindu weddings dates to 1500 BC. Some ancient cultures (Egyptian) had formal contracts and a special feast.

Any references you have would be appreciated.

Blessings.

 

[Chains Broken]

I hope I don't sound insulting and I know you already know this but there isn't really any wiggle room in the New Testament about waiting until marriage. Jesus did say to deny yourself and pick up your cross, and it really does seem like you want to do that but are just in a difficult situation. Could you ask her if you two could just try waiting for a bit and see how you two feel about it after a while?

If someone has sex or masturbates regularly, it'll feel like a need and seem impossible to stop, but waiting really isn't so bad. I think it's mostly the idea of it that sounds intimidating moreso than the actual waiting.

 

[doctrox]

From the OP:

Hello, so, i have something to confess and i seek guidance.

Glad to see this OP. It is a topic that is very personal for me i.e. fornication. I learned a lot about the demonic and the spiritual warfare that raged in my formerly promiscuous life, prior to coming to Jesus Christ. Much of what I have learned continues to serve me well in the area of my deliverance ministry.
Im in a Long Distance Relationship (LDR) and we are engaged. We got engaged 2023 october 4th. I became a christian i believe .. march 2023, and before that i had about 30 sexual partners. Yeah, this is my history, as well. The first thing that needs to be done is to get set free from the demonic bondages that came from those 30 encounters. You're chocko with unclean spirits. Every time you swap spit (i.e. fornicate), you get more of them. Fornication is a major open door, and one that will NEVER close on its own, NEVER go away by itself. You must make it go away and that is done through repentance and then deliverance i.e. claiming the blood authority of Jesus Christ over those demons and casting them out in his name. This is as real as it gets. Problem is, folks just want to hear another itchy-ear feel-good or some emotional psychobabble, instead of accepting self-responsibility and waging the very real spiritual battle that is before them. I met one woman not too long before my now fiancée, and she pressured me into having sex before even getting engaged You mean like being pressured into taking a nanotech injection? Since you agreed to fornicate, you now opened a door to the demonic. , and it was also LDR. With nightmarish jetlag and so much more to it, my mind wasnt clear and i agreed to have sex before even being engaged with her. Long story short- i broke up with her 3-4 days after meeting her. Shall we pile on more demons, or shall we repent? It's your choice...
I was running out of time, and against many many odds, i managed to meet one woman- on friendly terms, entirely friendly terms. Very attractive but we were both totally in on only meeting as friends. Yes, while the "attractive" thing is relative, it's soooo much a guy thing. Zero flirting what so ever before meeting. About.. 10 days later, i was engaged for the first time in my life. I asked her virtually any relationship question the internet could seek out. We both have our issues and im still sure its her that i want for the rest of my life.
We did not for the rest of my stay in her country have "sex", at least we didnt go all the way. But you did go for it. The enemy now has an open door. Before getting engaged we held hands, kissed and cuddled. Sounds safe, doesn't it? But, IT'S NOT! Paul warns us that it is better NOT to even touch the woman. Shes no easy girl, But easy enuff? she only had one guy before me. I'm being hard on you for a reason. Do you want to get set free? Or do you want to be told sweet things? Im quite impure in contrast. I, too, was as filthy as they come. Yet, after coming to the Lord, he gave me the bride of my youth. She was age 25, and I was age 45, when we married. She was a virgin on our wedding night; I, embarrassingly, was not.

Ive looked much into the bible and i dont find anything on engagement, and i find mentions that the marriage is the agreement. There is a lot of info in the Holy Bible on this. People in biblical times would get married as soon as 2 weeks after meeting each other.
I know twisting the words of the bible, is essentially lying which im very much against, and naturally i dont want to anger god. Not to worry, as God's a gentleman; he'll let you experience the consequences of your actions (e.g. STD's, enraged ex's, bastard children, etc.). Then there are the demons...
My fiancée and me both have high sex drives, we very much wanted to go all the way before i left but we held out and that was great.

Fastforward about 6 months, she moves closer to me (its a process to go through due to our governments interfering in natural relationships.. you dont even have a RIGHT to marry!) I hear that "state worship" thing. So why would one bring in a corporate third party (i.e. "government") as an equity interest in your relationship anyway? This is why Child Protection Services can bust down your door, hold you on the floor at gunpoint, while you're screaming "I got rights! I got rights!" and then take your children away from you. It's because you went to the "government" for permission to do what God has already said is Lawful i.e. marry and procreate.
So, i finally meet her again, and we already talked a lot about it and we think now we held out so long, and we talked so much, connected so much and shes leaving her entire world behind just to come closer to me- so we went all the way. I can hear the siren now: "Sweet dreams are made of these..."
She did question me a bit if its okay for us to do it all, and im still completely confident that i want her and that shes the one for me.
We all sin. I understand, repentance is to not plan any sins and avoid sinning and even temptation. Rather, repentance is to confess a sin and to abstain/turn from it. We are scheduled to meet in about a week again after we havent met the whole summer (about 3 months). She joked around not wanting to have sex this time before, she always likes to annoy me a bit. Now that i bring it up she isnt having it and even goes to say that she needs sex and asking me if its okay she has it with someone else? She is not free to make the proper decision for herself. For that matter, neither are you. That's because the both of you are being affected by the demonic and don't realize it. To add injury to the insult, she would fornicate with someone else if you refused her. At this point, in the absence of repentance, there is no good future for you with this woman.
I know she doesnt mean that, i know her better than she do. She is very frustrated that we already had sex, and if we didnt have sex already- then it wouldnt be a big deal, but now since we have- then she would feel really bad about being without it- especially since we have looked so much forward to giving each other all kinds of love again. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's never too late to do the right thing. Start doing that right thing now i.e. repent, keep it zipped and start waging spiritual warfare.

We are no virgins, and we have already passed that limit. We are engaged and we are both determined that we want each other, we would be married already if it wasnt because of the government having to put us through all these bizarre processes to determine whether they will allow us to get married. The government is the least of your concerns. Souls are on the line, and the enemy wants you off-balance and obsessed with your physicality.

I believe the bible claims divorce is justified if the man neglects her womans sexual needs, and shes very clearly expressing me that its a real need to her. (i know, im so lucky...) No, divorce was allowed for the hardening of the heart, and for when the guy would "put her away" to steal his unconsummated wife's stuff. Mat. 19 & Mal. 2:16
Exodus 21:7-11
I want to hold out until marriage, but i also dont want to deprive her as i already took her as my wife.
If she is my wife then its a sin to neglect her needs. If she is not my wife, its a sin to have premarital sex. If you have not declared your union before the Lord, then all that is irrelevant. Marriage is not an ending to anything; it is a BEGINNING. Problem is, you don't know whether you're coming or going on this, and that's because the enemy is playing with you big time. If you will repent, and she will repent, then God can heal the situation and the two of you can begin to make choices that glorify him instead of each other's flesh.

We dont meet all the time so i really dont want the little time we do get to spend together to be bad.
I really feel stuck in between commiting 2 different sins. Should i just tie her up and tickle her until shes not in mood anymore??? And, what is allowed to do before being "married"? Are we even allowed to look into each others eyes? You two need to DISCUSS what is pleasing and proper in the Lord's eyes. Obviously, this would require both of you to be born again believers, followers of Jesus Christ. Do you have that between the two of you now?

Personal attacks and advice are welcome. Nuthin' but love is bathing this post. Godspeed!

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for your detailed response to Zeth45.

Perhaps you could clarify some of your statements: I am extremely interested in the history of marriage, since wedding ceremonies are found in almost every culture and among almost all indigenous peoples. Are you suggesting they were all recently developed?

Are you sure the Hebrew people had nothing special to mark the inception of a marriage? Could it be that nothing is prescribed by Mosiac Law because a marriage ritual was taken for granted?

The Romans had formal ceremonies; could it be that those date to Roman tribal beginnings? We know that the text for Hindu weddings dates to 1500 BC. Some ancient cultures (Egyptian) had formal contracts and a special feast.

Any references you have would be appreciated.

Blessings.

There are books written on the history of marriage and marriage processes and wedding ceremonies, be sure to know that they are three topics. I have long explanations for them if you want them ….but in short…Forget about the word fornication….it is not a biblical word and its definitions are misleading….it is better to read what the scriptures say.

The history of marriages goes back before recorded history….all cultures. The history of wedding ceremonies go back nearly as long….but they are Pagan.

The Jews had a process for marriag that more or less resembled the transfer of property…..the bride being part of that. And they had celebrations that were more or less family parties, but Christians would not approve because sex in the bridal chamber was involved during the celebrations and this to was celebrated to. The union consummated the marriage. The Hebrew language does not have words for wed or weddings.

For a while in between the testaments the Jews developed a wedding ceremony while they were under Persian rule but this fell out of favor because of Pagan connections.

No evidence of wedding ceremonies in the New Testament. So no requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Old or New Testament

Even the marriage at Cana is misunderstood by most. The scriptures actually call it the Marriage at Cana, not the Wedding at Cana and the story picks up at the reception. We do not know who the bride and groom were or why it was important to Christ and His mother.

The only ones that were performing wedding ceremonies were Pagans. But when Paul’s ministries started converting Pagans they brought some of their customs into Christianity and wedding ceremonies was one of them. We can see some of the Pagan customs and rituals in modern Christian wedding ceremonies. So Gentile-Christians surely were performing wedding ceremonies very early….but still nothing in the Bible and still not a requirement. The first documented Christian wedding occurs in the 9th century….I am sure there were more that occurred before that.

The Catholics all big on celibacy had a bad attitude toward love, sex, women, and marriages. And what weddings that did occur they would not allow in the church buildings. Still not a requirement.

The Protestants saw the value of family in Christianity and this was one of the reasons that they made church wedding ceremonies mandatory to be married in the 16th century. The Catholics soon followed with their requirement for wedding ceremonies.

Now it is our custom and a very good one.....but not a sin to form a marriage as God put it. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder".

So that is the short of it.

 

[Zeth4500]

Quick response im at work... its called premarital sex. This implies sex doesnt crwate the marriage. Yes? So what is this socalled marriage really about?? Im more than happy to be married right away and we get the papers later this year... government is antichrist imo so their process is naturally to violate nature and christianity

 

[Grailhunter]

Quick response im at work... its called premarital sex. This implies sex doesnt crwate the marriage. Yes? So what is this socalled marriage really about?? Im more than happy to be married right away and we get the papers later this year... government is antichrist imo so their process is naturally to violate nature and christianity

What I have told you is the truth

 

[Zeth4500]

Do you know what love is?

im open to hearing your definition of love

If you have sex with a woman…..you are married.

disagree, the term fornication/premarital sex implies that the sex doesnt cause you to become married, otherwise- fornication would only be a one-time-thing
one part of the bible explains if a man takes a woman by force he will then be forced to pay dowry and have her as his wife

The Bible does not stipulate a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married

i dont imagine this being required either, as it is between man and woman to agree, and god will be the witness

You….like lot of people have seriously messed up

acknowledged, i was cursed by a female priest and a mother who practiced withcraft, i had no valid christians to look at when i was a child

i recall reading into what one can do to relieve one self to avoid sin, and in marriage the couple must relieve each other to steer clear of causing sin by masturbation, but i also read that masturbation with only your wife/husband in mind is not sinful- again, back to. how do we define who is and who is not man and wife? i dont think any sane christian is convinced that the government must accept the marriage as legitimate

If someone has sex or masturbates regularly, it'll feel like a need and seem impossible to stop,

sure, if that is an issue then the addiction must be addressed. we are to have no god above god- ones marriage partner is a difficult grey-zone as we may put them equal to god, and - unsure about this one, even above god in some instances?

Could you ask her if you two could just try waiting for a bit and see how you two feel about it after a while?

she will feel neglected and punished, i understand her since we already broke the seal, it would be like if your employer came out and robbed you after you just got paid

Forget about the word fornication

interesting.

sex in the bridal chamber was involved during the celebrations

this reminds me of some absurd basement cult-gathering involving george bush's father watching his son doing.. something, in a coffin, at arms distance, does not sound very godly.

And what weddings that did occur they would not allow in the church buildings.

interesting..... so i guess we honestly cannot forbid LGBT marriage from a christian perspective

What therefore God hath joined together

and how did god exactly join them together, have their paths crossed, cause them to fall in love?

 

[Zeth4500]

You mean like being pressured into taking a nanotech injection?

never, not even a regular injection

But easy enuff?

oh no no, i dont mean as promiscious. but yes she did engage in it with previous partner under the notion that they would marry

It's because you went to the "government" for permission to do what God has already said is Lawful i.e. marry

i still need to find out how one can marry with permission by god. i do have direct number to a very old priest, if we do need a priest as witness im sure he would be glad to be witness and do a very simple ceremony with us at church before we get the papers ready.

If you will repent, and she will repent, then God can heal the situation and the two of you can begin to make choices that glorify him instead of each other's flesh.

i understand. we could hold out no doubt, the issue is just, she considers us married already- and frankly, after looking into it, i dont see how we are not, either.

 

[Grailhunter]

disagree, the term fornication/premarital sex implies that the sex doesnt cause you to become married, otherwise- fornication would only be a one-time-thing
one part of the bible explains if a man takes a woman by force he will then be forced to pay dowry and have her as his wife

I call my ministry the Johnny Apple seed of Truth.
I can only tell you the truth, you can believe anything you want.
I do not believe in belief control.
Fornication is not a scriptural term….it is a man-made idea that is incorrect. So it is not a thing at all. A scam.

And you said….one part of the bible explains if a man takes a woman by force he will then be forced to pay dowry and have her as his wife….this is true except if the woman was betrothed or married, in which case both were killed if no one heard her scream.
But this has nothing to do with fornication or casual sex.
Back then if a man “took” a woman he had stolen property and had to pay the price and to due respect to the father he had to keep her but if he was not caught then it was what we would call rape.

Either way there is no requirement for a wedding ceremony in the scriptures.
The union consummates the marriage, even today if a couple does not have sex after a wedding they can get the marriage annulled.

 

[Grailhunter]

im open to hearing your definition of love

Love? The usual truth….affection, respect, compassion, companionship, and communication.

 

[Grailhunter]

interesting..... so i guess we honestly cannot forbid LGBT marriage from a christian perspective

How does any of that mean to allow LGBTQ marriages. Such marriages are vows to sin against God.

 

[Grailhunter]

and how did god exactly join them together, have their paths crossed, cause them to fall in love?

The verse is about a process not talking about a specific couple.

 

[Bob]

There are books written on the history of marriage and marriage processes and wedding ceremonies, be sure to know that they are three topics. I have long explanations for them if you want them ….but in short…Forget about the word fornication….it is not a biblical word and its definitions are misleading….it is better to read what the scriptures say.

The history of marriages goes back before recorded history….all cultures. The history of wedding ceremonies go back nearly as long….but they are Pagan.

The Jews had a process for marriag that more or less resembled the transfer of property…..the bride being part of that. And they had celebrations that were more or less family parties, but Christians would not approve because sex in the bridal chamber was involved during the celebrations and this to was celebrated to. The union consummated the marriage. The Hebrew language does not have words for wed or weddings.

For a while in between the testaments the Jews developed a wedding ceremony while they were under Persian rule but this fell out of favor because of Pagan connections.

No evidence of wedding ceremonies in the New Testament. So no requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Old or New Testament

Even the marriage at Cana is misunderstood by most. The scriptures actually call it the Marriage at Cana, not the Wedding at Cana and the story picks up at the reception. We do not know who the bride and groom were or why it was important to Christ and His mother.

The only ones that were performing wedding ceremonies were Pagans. But when Paul’s ministries started converting Pagans they brought some of their customs into Christianity and wedding ceremonies was one of them. We can see some of the Pagan customs and rituals in modern Christian wedding ceremonies. So Gentile-Christians surely were performing wedding ceremonies very early….but still nothing in the Bible and still not a requirement. The first documented Christian wedding occurs in the 9th century….I am sure there were more that occurred before that.

The Catholics all big on celibacy had a bad attitude toward love, sex, women, and marriages. And what weddings that did occur they would not allow in the church buildings. Still not a requirement.

The Protestants saw the value of family in Christianity and this was one of the reasons that they made church wedding ceremonies mandatory to be married in the 16th century. The Catholics soon followed with their requirement for wedding ceremonies.

Now it is our custom and a very good one.....but not a sin to form a marriage as God put it. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder".

So that is the short of it.

Thank you for your response. All wel—stated.

The central theme in this thread is the importance of chastity before marriage. Although we know what God demands of Christians, how far back can we trace its importance in indigenous cultures?

A somewhat flawed study that is still worth studying is J D Unwins “Sex and Culture”
(1934: Sex and Culture - Anna’s Archive).
He found that it was difficult to understand the beliefs of tribal cultures, so instead he looked for a correlation between pre-marital chastity and types of spiritual beliefs. One result was that most pagans did believe pre-marital chastity was extremely important.

Note that in order to hold chastity important, then there must be an event changing a couples’ status from betrothed to marriage. (My apologies for muddying the waters with the phrase “wedding ceremony,” clearly a modern concept.) Suppose we call that event a Marriage Ritual (if you have something better, I’m agreeable).

A public marriage ritual would have had at least two important functions in past cultures: (a) a celebration of expected new life in the community and hence its continuity, and (b) clear recognition of who the married couples were. Thus, single men and women were indirectly put on notice that their sexual activities were off limits (and also potential infidelity for new spouses would be squelched).

Again, because marriage rituals do not appear in Mosaic Law, surely they must have had a long tradition previously.

Sadly, since the 1960s, “free-love” activists have successfully subverted chastity and marriage in Western culture, in part because previously most people had taken it for granted, and were thus unprepared, if not religious, to defend it.

Consequently, it will only be that by teaching the gospel, the majority will be turned to God, and we can re-establish covenant marriage and chastity in the culture.

Blessings.

 

[Zeth4500]

Such marriages are vows to sin against God.

yes undoubtedly- however, im saying .. i thought that wedding was something christianity came up with- so we as christians cannot claim only christians can have wedding, understand?

Love? The usual truth….affection, respect, compassion, companionship, and communication.

love and respect are quite similar. the bible says men needs respect, and women need love
women are insecure and desperate to simply be accepted as they are
men need respect, and to be appreciated

love, to me, is to ignore someones faults and instead only see the good in them- some parents love their children too much and neglect parenting them..
as for whether we do have love, yes no doubt- she has many times asked me if i put a lovespell on her because her love for me is so intense and still almost a whole year later its something she had not tried before

in which case both were killed if no one heard her scream.

what..?
"25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her."

i read this as only the man gets punishment- although it could make sense a married woman would also get punished for putting herself in a situation like that, maybe just to deter women from having any power in accusing someone of rape- or using that as excuse in case shes caught cheating

even today if a couple does not have sex after a wedding they can get the marriage annulled.

that made me laugh

anyhow..
"Hebrews 13:4 considers sex outside of marriage to be immoral: “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled."
SEX causes the union, the bonding on flesh right, thus- marriage?
so how is the bonding in itself, which causes the marriage, against the marriage?
is there something im misunderstanding because this is a paradox as i see it

if simple intercourse is what causes marriage, then i have been married many times.....

 

[Zeth4500]

Thus, single men and women were indirectly put on notice that their sexual activities were off limits (and also potential infidelity for new spouses would be squelched).

interesting, so theres a hidden motive with inviting your whole social circle over for wedding...

Sadly, since the 1960s, “free-love” activists have successfully subverted chastity and marriage in Western culture

i believe it is a much much more controversial minority that is behind all of this.... one of their people created an article stating that women must be with at least 6 guys before "settling down" and they have also posted absurdities claiming people who find joy in seeing your wife cheating on you are actually really smart
"cuckoldry a fetish for intellectuals?" with the extremes society is turning into, its easy to understand why we invented powerful war weapons

im not sure if i should make a new thread asking the very deliberate question what defined a marriage back in biblical times. im sure, vows. and i know for my countrys marriage process at least one witness.
so, ideally a priest as witness, in church, simply reading up some vows and having the couple agree to each other
it is ideal to do anything possible to prevent sin, and lust is something we all have as a challenge in our lives. we are instructed to flee from temptation, so nullifying anything lustful as being sinful, that seems like a very straightforward approach, bible explains its a married couples duty to quench each others sexual needs as to avoid lust (sexual desires boiling over and looking at other women/men??)

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for your response. All wel—stated.

The central theme in this thread is the importance of chastity before marriage. Although we know what God demands of Christians, how far back can we trace its importance in indigenous cultures?

A somewhat flawed study that is still worth studying is J D Unwins “Sex and Culture”
(1934: Sex and Culture - Anna’s Archive).
He found that it was difficult to understand the beliefs of tribal cultures, so instead he looked for a correlation between pre-marital chastity and types of spiritual beliefs. One result was that most pagans did believe pre-marital chastity was extremely important.

Note that in order to hold chastity important, then there must be an event changing a couples’ status from betrothed to marriage. (My apologies for muddying the waters with the phrase “wedding ceremony,” clearly a modern concept.) Suppose we call that event a Marriage Ritual (if you have something better, I’m agreeable).

A public marriage ritual would have had at least two important functions in past cultures: (a) a celebration of expected new life in the community and hence its continuity, and (b) clear recognition of who the married couples were. Thus, single men and women were indirectly put on notice that their sexual activities were off limits (and also potential infidelity for new spouses would be squelched).

Again, because marriage rituals do not appear in Mosaic Law, surely they must have had a long tradition previously.

Sadly, since the 1960s, “free-love” activists have successfully subverted chastity and marriage in Western culture, in part because previously most people had taken it for granted, and were thus unprepared, if not religious, to defend it.

Consequently, it will only be that by teaching the gospel, the majority will be turned to God, and we can re-establish covenant marriage and chastity in the culture.

Blessings.

Chasity in a culture? Christians are not to conduct their sexual activities like animals. Obedience to God and respect for ourselves and others….not used merely for gratification.

When you get into the historical study of chastity….the discussion turns to virgins…how to guard them….how to guarantee it….how to verify it.

Why did men want women that were virgins?
To insure their offspring were theirs.
No disease.
The term fresh.

Chastity before marriage because you do not bring disease into marriage…..to “know”only one person, one love.

Vestal Virgins under guard….in ancient times….never around men ….never even touched or spoken to a man or never been alone with a man.

How to verify?
In the battlefield when they were verifying which women to kill they chest stripped them looking for signs of suckling. Not too accurate.

Some definitions of virgin means a woman that has not had a child.

Clinical definitions of a hymen are not verified? Blood after sex, not that accurate.
In the Hebrew culture women were more or less property and a women that were not a virgins were considered damaged goods.