Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you claim that the fallen angels mentioned in Jude are walking about doing mischief even though Jude says they are being held in bonds of darkness.

You have chosen to take that literally for whatever reason. It's a figurative way of referring to the fact that their fate is sealed. On judgment day they will be cast into the lake of fire. Nothing can change that.

When do you plan on showing me where scripture talks about the fall of the demons?

Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't

I do much more than you, that's for certain. You just come on here making claims and rarely ever exegete any scripture. And I don't blame you. I wouldn't try to do that either if I wasn't able to back up my claims with scripture.

Those who rely on dogmatism usually make that claim.

I rely on seeing the obvious, which is that you are here to try to annoy people with your nonsense. And, you are rather successful at it, I must say. So, mission accomplished.

I do, but since you dismiss what I say out of hand, you don't care to understand what I say.

I do not dismiss what you say out of hand. That's ridiculous. I will say it's tempting to do that, knowing that you are almost always wrong. But, I still don't do that.

I maintain that Michael is not fighting those mentioned by Jude. You have no proof for your claim.

Well, each refers to fallen angels. I certainly have much more evidence to back up my view than you have for yours. You offer no explanation at all to back up your view.

Tell me where it says that Michael is fighting fallen angels.

LOL! So, I see that you have decided that you don't want anyone to take you seriously. Okay. So, you think Satan's angels are good angels then, do you? LOL. Wow. Why am I wasting my time on this? I need to stop.

 

[TribulationSigns]

An allegory is a narrative technique in which characters, events, and details within a story symbolize deeper meanings, often moral, spiritual, or political. Essentially, an allegory uses symbolic figures and actions to convey truths or generalizations about human existence.

The parable of the mustard seed is not allegorical because Jesus uses a common experience, farming, as an analogy to describe a spiritual reality. Something about sowing seed in a field is like the kingdom of heaven. If Jesus were using allegory to make his point, the grain, the man, and the field would represent something else. But Jesus is not speaking in allegory because the grain is grain, the man is a man, and the field is a field. Each of the elements of his story makes sense according to its dictionary definition. Do men sow seed in fields? Yes.

Even though a mustard tree begins as a very tiny and inconspicuous little seed, it nevertheless, over time, becomes the biggest and most prominent tree in the garden. By analogy, even though the beginning of the kingdom of God is small and inconspicuous, it will nevertheless, over time, develop into the world-dominant kingdom that the prophets predicted. [The Parables of Jesus Version 1.0 John A. “Jack” Crabtree; Sound Interpretation Project. Parables — Sound Interpretation Project]​

Instead of comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing it to be its interpreter yourself, you decided to browse the Internet and quote someone's interpretation you thought is correct interpreation? This man, John Crabtree, who runs Sound Interpreation Project, made a claim that the mustard seed is just a grain. That's it?! So by his "analogy" the seed is just the beginning of the kingdom of God without deeper spiritual understanding? What he fails to realize is that the Mustard Seed "IS" Christ. Allow me to show how we should understand Mustard Seed ACCORDING to Scripture.

Matthew 17:20

• "And Jesus said unto them, because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Of course, later on the disciples did cast out demons or devils, but this was to illustrate that without Christ (the Mustard seed), it was impossible, but with God, all things were possible. Casting our Devils was a sign of salvation. And no one could do this apart from the Lord. For example, Christ had to cast him out, that they could cast him out "in Him." Only with God is this salvation possible. likewise:

Matthew 19:25-26

• "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
• But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Who then can be saved? No one apart from God! With God it is possible, without Him it is impossible. The Kingdom or mountain can only grow from the tiny little mustard seed of faith, which is the faith of Christ. If you have that faith, you will be more than conquerors, where no gate of hell will stand against you. You will overcome the kingdom of Satan through Christ and bring a multitude into His kingdom from that which can and is moved.

Unfortunately, we have some misguided souls who actually believe that this passage means that they can "physically" move a mountain (along with drink poison, handle with snakes, heal aids patients with a touch, speak in God tongues, etc.) if they can "train" themselves to have "enough faith." NO! The mountain in view here is the Kingdom of Satan, and the mustard seed of faith in view is the faith of Christ. Again, note "carefully" the context. It is of Satan being cast out of a man by Christ. And Jesus is telling the Apostles that "UNBELIEF" is why they/we have no power to move Satan from a man, but that if we have faith as the Mustard Seed, we can remove Satan's kingdom into the abyss of the sea. And indeed, that is our commission when we are sent with the gospel of Christ. For when we come with the faith of Christ, the gospel message we bring frees a multitude from the chains of bondage to Satan. When we have the faith of Christ, we walk among Lions, wolves, serpents, scorpions and have no fear of being hurt by them. Because we have true security in the Lord's Holy Mountain. We will, by the power of the faith of the mustard seed, remove this kingdom far off from the nations that they are no longer deceived.

Again, using the number "one" rule, we can see this is true by comparing scripture with scripture. God says "IF" we have faith as a grain of Mustard seed. What does that mean? What is the Mustard seed in this symbolism, humm? We don't go to Dr. I.Hava Ph.D, we don't go to Mother Johnson or Sister Clara, we don't go to Father O'leary the Priest, Rev'rend Johnson, or I run Sound Interpretation Project, we go to God's Word to find out what spiritually the Mustard seed represents. God tells us clearly IF we will RECEIVE it.

Matthew 13:31-32

• "..the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
• which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Christ was the least, who became the greatest. Christ "IS" the foundation of the Kingdom of God. Christ "IS" the mustard seed, the faith whereby we can move mountains. So God has told us what the grain of Mustard seed represents. It starts out as just one God man, Christ, and the Kingdom is expanded through the preaching of the gospel, taking down strongholds, where no gate on Satan's Kingdom can withstand it. And through the New Testament period, it grows unto a great kingdom across the face of all nations who are no longer deceived. Remember when Jesus told His followers, "and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. - John 14:12?"

Again, some misguided souls think they can actually do greater miracles today than Jesus did. That's ridiculous. Jesus wasn't talking about physical miracles, He was talking about the works of Salvation which He started as this tiny Mustard seed, and which continue through us to build His Church. He was talking in terms of a seed growing into a great tree. He started it as a small seed, and we (all Christians since) continued the work through Him to make it a great Kingdom. It started with one God man, and then hundreds of thousands of Christians as vessels of God bringing in more to Salvation than were saved in Jesus day. That's the greater works. Not Greater miracles. No one can walk on water. No one can raise a man from the dead after he has been dead SO LONG that He is decaying and stinking. No man can talk to the sea and command the waves to cease, etc. etc. No, no man has "EVER" nor ever will do greater physical miracles than Jesus. But the works of salvation are greater because Christ went to the father. And the Mustard seed illustrates that growth and what Kingdom by its faith is vanquished. Of course, you'll have some people saying, TribulationSigns is making his own private interpretations again. No, I didn't liken a grain of Mustard seed to the Kingdom, God Himself did! I am merely bearing witness to what God says. But read it for yourself in many verses:

Mark 4:30

• ""And He said, whereunto shall we LIKEN the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? it is as a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
• But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh GREATER than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it."

So no one ask why does TribulationSigns liken the grain of mustard seed to the Kingdom of God instituted by Christ, ask GOD why He likens or makes comparisons with it. Like I said, it is better for us to get our interpretations from God right in the Bible, than from MEN.

(continue)

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'll give one more on the mustard seed:

Luke 13:18

• "..Unto what is the kingdom of God LIKE? and whereunto shall I RESEMBLE it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden: and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it."

The Kingdom of Christ is this Mustard seed that started out tiny - started with Christ, and grows to cover the whole world and all the nations. This is what the mustard seed represents. Christ's Kingdom Come. And so if you have faith as a grain of Mustard seed, you have the faith of Christ wherein the Kingdom (mountain) of Satan cannot stand against. No gates of Hell can stand against. You have the keys of the Kingdom in Christ Jesus where whatsoever is done in earth, has already been done in heaven.

Satan (that old serpent) is subject unto you, not the other way around. You "WILL" cast out devils (Mark 16:17) because the faith of Christ in the gospel you bring casts out devils. You will remove Kingdoms because you are a soldier in the Army of the Lord and you knock down strongholds in Christ Jesus. Not wars in physical mountains, but assaulting spiritual strongholds of Satan.

2nd Corinthians 10:3-4

• "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
• (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )"

The faith of Christ, like a grain of a Mustard seed removes Kingdoms in the miracle of salvation in peoples lives. A Miracle "FAR" greater than simply making someone physically well. But making them Spiritually well. This is of far greater value than making someone physically well. For they can get physically well, and then end up in hell. What good is that? But if they are made Spiritually well, then it doesn't matter if they get physcially well or not. They will live forever!

God is the Author (beginner) and the finisher of our faith. That, and "ONLY" that faith, is saving faith. All other faith is just belief, or worldly faith. If we have that Saving faith, then that is the faith of Christ as the Mustard seed. The faith of the Kingdom of God that will remove kingdoms (mountains) and cast them into the abyss of the sea. Consider what Jesus said to the Scribes. He said if I cast out devils by Satan, then that kingdom (Satan's) is divided against itself, and that kingdom cannot stand. BUT if I cast out Satan by the power of God, then no doubt the KINGDOM of God has come upon you! Clearly it is Kingdom against kingdom, and the Kingdom of God breaks up the house of Satan and casts him out. BELIEVE IT! That's the faith of a mustard seed. That's the faith that God both Authors and finishes, and the only faith at will remove mountains.

Physical/Literal Mountains and Kingdoms will all be moved, as this world will ultimately be destroyed very soon. But the mountain that shall NEVER be moved is the Kingdom of heaven. For some insight into that, read Hebrews 12:26-29. True faith, Saving faith, moves mountains. For the word of God is a word of Judgment as well as a word of Salvation. It all depends upon whom the word falls. On one, it falls like a two edged sword to cut both coming and going. Not cut to save someone on the downward stroke, but totally ripping them DOUBLE. To another, the word falls like bread from heaven, or like gentle LIFE GIVING rain to a thirsty soul. For the same sun that hardens the clay, softens the butter.

Faith cometh by HEARING and Hearing by the Word of God

 

[TribulationSigns]

The foolish virgins in the story that Jesus told missed out on the wedding banquet because, ultimately, they did not care enough about their participation in the wedding to have prudently prepared for any exigency. In contrast, the other virgins were included in the wedding banquet because they, in fact, did care enough about their participation in the wedding to have prudently prepared for any exigency. By analogy, it is those who are personally invested in the event of Jesus returning into history to be joined to his “bride” (the people of God) who will be granted the right to participate in the wedding feast of the Messiah and his bride. For it is those who are so invested who will prudently and diligently prepare for Jesus’s return by deciding to obediently follow his instructions. [The Parables of Jesus Version 1.0 John A. “Jack” Crabtree; Sound Interpretation Project. Parables — Sound Interpretation Project]

Ahem... is that the best "analogy" interpreation John Crabtree can offer on the ten virgins?! Seriously? He did not deal with the important keys:

1. What does the lamps and the oil signifies?
2. Why is the bridegroom tarried that the virgins went sleeping?
3. Why is the cry made at midnight?
4. what does the trimming of their lamps represent?
5. Why does the foolish virgins lack the oil in their lamp?
6. Why can't the wise virgins spare some of their oil to the foolish?
7. Why did the wise virgins tell the foolish to go to those who sells and buy for themselves?

These have deeper spiritual significations that call for spiritual discernment (spells allegories!) on what Christ talked about. Unlike John Crabtree who just makes a superficial claim that it's about some virgins that really "do not care enough about their participation in the wedding." That's it?! Such a poor exegesis!

Listen, I asked YOU, to interpret the ten virgins parable YOURSELF since you said that it only can be understood with analogy interpretation. Else you do not know what you are talking about!

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have chosen to take that literally for whatever reason. It's a figurative way of referring to the fact that their fate is sealed. On judgment day they will be cast into the lake of fire. Nothing can change that.

I don't see any reason to take it figuratively. Is it possible to imprison someone in darkness? I don't see why not.

When do you plan on showing me where scripture talks about the fall of the demons?

That was your assignment. We are discussing John's claim that Satan will be imprisoned during the millennial period. You maintain that imprisonment isn't actually imprisonment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Instead of comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing it to be its interpreter yourself, you decided to browse the Internet and quote someone's interpretation you thought is correct interpreation? This man, John Crabtree, who runs Sound Interpreation Project, made a claim that the mustard seed is just a grain. That's it?! So by his "analogy" the seed is just the beginning of the kingdom of God without deeper spiritual understanding?

Yes. Since Jesus intended us to understand his parable as an analogy we don't look to each item in the parable for meaning.

What he fails to realize is that the Mustard Seed "IS" Christ.

There is no proof of that.

Allow me to show how we should understand Mustard Seed ACCORDING to Scripture.

I don't agree with your method of study, which puts meaning into a passage that isn't there.

Again, using the number "one" rule, we can see this is true by comparing scripture with scripture.

No, that is the one rule you should avoid because by reading one passage into another passage we fail to understand a passage the way it was intended to be understood.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ahem... is that the best "analogy" interpreation John Crabtree can offer on the ten virgins?! Seriously? He did not deal with the important keys:

1. What does the lamps and the oil signifies?
2. Why is the bridegroom tarried that the virgins went sleeping?
3. Why is the cry made at midnight?
4. what does the trimming of their lamps represent?
5. Why does the foolish virgins lack the oil in their lamp?
6. Why can't the wise virgins spare some of their oil to the foolish?
7. Why did the wise virgins tell the foolish to go to those who sells and buy for themselves?

As I say, the elements of the parable are not intented to be taken symbolically. The oil doesn't represent anything. The virgins don't represent anything.

These have deeper spiritual significations that call for spiritual discernment (spells allegories!) on what Christ talked about.

If you are looking for "deeper spiritual meanings" you have already decided in advance what the text means before you study it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The abyss is a spiritual prison that holds spiritual prisoners on a chain. Satan can move, hurt, kill, steal and destroy within his prison, but he cannot prevent the advance of the Gospel or hurt those Christ owns.

So, effectively there is no prison.

The difference between a physical prison that you can see with the eye and a spiritual prison that is invisible to the eye is: it is not confined to one geographical location. It is basically a spiritual state of restraint. I don't think you are grasping the Amil position.

And yet, it isn't a restraint at all is it?

The whole portrayal of a dragon and serpent being chained in a prison, and then locked up with a key is spiritual symbolism to denote the restraint that Satan is under now through the glorious first advent of Christ.

What is spiritual symbolism? Is that the same thing as imaginary?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The abyss is a spiritual prison that holds spiritual prisoners on a chain. Satan can move, hurt, kill, steal and destroy within his prison, but he cannot prevent the advance of the Gospel or hurt those Christ owns.

That's the thing about Amil. They talk about "spiritual' things as if they were imaginary things. Satan is being held with spiritual chains, which aren't actually holding Satan at all.

And Amil is contradictory. Satan is bound but he isn't bound.

 

[WPM]

That's the thing about Amil. They talk about "spiritual' things as if they were imaginary things. Satan is being held with spiritual chains, which aren't actually holding Satan at all.

And Amil is contradictory. Satan is bound but he isn't bound.

Not so. Quite the opposite. The Gentiles (the world) were deceived before Satan's banishment from heaven. They were in darkness. They were ignorant. Repeated Scripture shows that. They are no longer without excuse. The light has shone on the nations.

For many centuries Yahweh was ethnic Israel's God. He was God of the Hebrew people. After the First Advent, He was God of the nations. The Gospel opportunity widened to embrace the darkened Gentiles. This was not the case prior to Calvary, with the special exception of Nineveh. The Gospel expanse has gone from "the nation" (singular) before the cross to "the nations" (plural) after the cross. The nations now contain God's chosen people, not simply the nation!

In the Old Testament, God governed Israel in a theocracy, Satan, on the other hand, ruled the nations. The Gentiles were overwhelmingly ignorant to God’s truth and outside of His covenant favor. They were spiritually deceived. They were bound in paganism and blinded by idolatry. They sat in spiritual darkness. Only one single Gentile village/town/city experienced salvation that we know of. The world in general was deceived, not knowing anything about the grace of God or His merciful way of salvation.

Acts 17:30 tells us: “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

What is “the times of this ignorance”? What does this mean? Who is this talking about? It is the state of the Gentile nations before the earthly ministry of Christ and the introduction of His Messianic reign. Before Christ came Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. Before the cross, the heathen were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment.

The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. They are described as being ignored, blind and without hope. They are depicted as being imprisoned in chains.

Acts 14:16 teaches that God “in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

No. This tells us that “all nations” were allowed “to walk in their own ways” in the Old Testament era. They were deceived by the lie of the devil and separated from God and from grace.
Before Christ came, Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. Before the cross they were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment. Ignorance in Scripture is always linked to lack of knowledge of the Word of God. It is a fact that the Gospel witness had not reached the nations prior to the earthly ministry of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

The Gentiles generally were in a hopeless condition before the cross, “having no hope, and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12). That is a pretty grim state to be in. However, the darkness over the nations (ethnos) was lifted when the Gospel light began to shine. Now there was glorious hope and a way of escape from their despair. Satan had lost his grip over the nations, now it was time for him to be unseated in the lives of countless of millions of heathens.

Israel on the other hand, whilst often in rebellion, was subject to the truth. Prophet after prophet came preaching the unsearchable riches of God. They therefore had no excuse. The people were enlightened to the law of God and therefore God’s expectation of them. Notwithstanding, that did not mean the chosen nation was immune from satanic deception. Israel (who alone possessed God's special favor, and from whom the Messiah came) still mainly died in unbelief before Christ.

Satan was bound (or spiritually curtailed) in order to facilitate the invasion of his territory by the Gospel. Remember, Satan is a spiritual being; he must therefore be spiritually bound. That is what happened at the cross. Countless millions of Gentiles have come to Christ since the cross.

There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted. The darkness has been confronted and exposed and overcome through the Light of the truth. That light is centered in the person and message of Christ. Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus’ binding Satan at the cross.

Scripture repeatedly identifies the Messianic intra-Advent period as the time of the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This does not in any way insinuate that all will be saved. Not in any way. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

When Scripture speaks about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced it in the Old Testament.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

As you read through the Old Testament and as you see the revelation of God being outlined prior to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry, believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles. Here (in this passage) the enlightenment of the Gentiles is directly predicted. This is speaking about the great commission and this current intra-Advent period. Here is the foretelling of the enlightenment of the nations.

Luke 2:27 "the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

Many conveniently overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth. Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

The deception was lifted and truth shone bright throughout the nations.

 

[WPM]

So, effectively there is no prison.

And yet, it isn't a restraint at all is it?


What is spiritual symbolism? Is that the same thing as imaginary?

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's the thing about Amil. They talk about "spiritual' things as if they were imaginary things. Satan is being held with spiritual chains, which aren't actually holding Satan at all.

And Amil is contradictory. Satan is bound but he isn't bound.

Wrong. Do you think it helps your case to misrepresent Amil? It doesn't. It just makes you look like a liar and a fool.

We see his binding as being described symbolically and not literally. But, we do not say it's imaginary. That is a lie. What is hard to understand about symbolism for you? Something being symbolic does not equate to it being fictional and imaginary and we've never said that.

You interpret it all literally even though it talks about a dragon being bound with a great chain. Satan is not a physical being who can be literally bound with a great chain, but you don't want to acknowledge that. That's your problem.

We have explained MANY times our understanding of his binding, but you just ignore it and falsely claim that we "talk about spiritual things as if they were imaginary things". No, we recognize symbolism in Revelation 20 and you don't. We don't say any of it is imaginary. We explain our understanding of his very real and not imaginary binding, but we believe it is described symbolically in Revelation 20. Your carnal mind is not able to understand our view, but there is no basis for saying that we claim it's all imaginary. That is a lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so. Quite the opposite. The Gentiles (the world) were deceived before Satan's banishment from heaven. They were in darkness. They were ignorant. Repeated Scripture shows that. They are no longer without excuse. The light has shone on the nations.

For many centuries Yahweh was ethnic Israel's God. He was God of the Hebrew people. After the First Advent, He was God of the nations. The Gospel opportunity widened to embrace the darkened Gentiles. This was not the case prior to Calvary, with the special exception of Nineveh. The Gospel expanse has gone from "the nation" (singular) before the cross to "the nations" (plural) after the cross. The nations now contain God's chosen people, not simply the nation!

In the Old Testament, God governed Israel in a theocracy, Satan, on the other hand, ruled the nations. The Gentiles were overwhelmingly ignorant to God’s truth and outside of His covenant favor. They were spiritually deceived. They were bound in paganism and blinded by idolatry. They sat in spiritual darkness. Only one single Gentile village/town/city experienced salvation that we know of. The world in general was deceived, not knowing anything about the grace of God or His merciful way of salvation.

Acts 17:30 tells us: “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

What is “the times of this ignorance”? What does this mean? Who is this talking about? It is the state of the Gentile nations before the earthly ministry of Christ and the introduction of His Messianic reign. Before Christ came Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. Before the cross, the heathen were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment.

The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. They are described as being ignored, blind and without hope. They are depicted as being imprisoned in chains.

Acts 14:16 teaches that God “in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

No. This tells us that “all nations” were allowed “to walk in their own ways” in the Old Testament era. They were deceived by the lie of the devil and separated from God and from grace.
Before Christ came, Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. Before the cross they were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment. Ignorance in Scripture is always linked to lack of knowledge of the Word of God. It is a fact that the Gospel witness had not reached the nations prior to the earthly ministry of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

The Gentiles generally were in a hopeless condition before the cross, “having no hope, and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12). That is a pretty grim state to be in. However, the darkness over the nations (ethnos) was lifted when the Gospel light began to shine. Now there was glorious hope and a way of escape from their despair. Satan had lost his grip over the nations, now it was time for him to be unseated in the lives of countless of millions of heathens.

Israel on the other hand, whilst often in rebellion, was subject to the truth. Prophet after prophet came preaching the unsearchable riches of God. They therefore had no excuse. The people were enlightened to the law of God and therefore God’s expectation of them. Notwithstanding, that did not mean the chosen nation was immune from satanic deception. Israel (who alone possessed God's special favor, and from whom the Messiah came) still mainly died in unbelief before Christ.

Satan was bound (or spiritually curtailed) in order to facilitate the invasion of his territory by the Gospel. Remember, Satan is a spiritual being; he must therefore be spiritually bound. That is what happened at the cross. Countless millions of Gentiles have come to Christ since the cross.

There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted. The darkness has been confronted and exposed and overcome through the Light of the truth. That light is centered in the person and message of Christ. Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus’ binding Satan at the cross.

Scripture repeatedly identifies the Messianic intra-Advent period as the time of the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This does not in any way insinuate that all will be saved. Not in any way. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

When Scripture speaks about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced it in the Old Testament.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

As you read through the Old Testament and as you see the revelation of God being outlined prior to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry, believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles. Here (in this passage) the enlightenment of the Gentiles is directly predicted. This is speaking about the great commission and this current intra-Advent period. Here is the foretelling of the enlightenment of the nations.

Luke 2:27 "the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

Many conveniently overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth. Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

The deception was lifted and truth shone bright throughout the nations.

Well said. So, if he continues to try to say that we say Satan's binding is imaginary even after you have once again explained our understanding of Satan's binding, then we can know for certain that he is just a liar who tells lies about Amil because he knows he can't support Premil with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, effectively there is no prison.

It's not a literal prison. How can a spirit being be literally chained up in a literal prison? You are missing the symbolism. The prison is a symbol of Satan not being able to "prevent the advance of the Gospel or hurt those Christ owns.", as WPM said.

And yet, it isn't a restraint at all is it?

LOL. Did you not read what he said? What is wrong with you? He said Satan is not able to "prevent the advance of the Gospel or hurt those Christ owns.". So, he is restrained in that way. Hello? Wake up.

What is spiritual symbolism? Is that the same thing as imaginary?

LOL. If you don't know what symbolism is, you're beyond help. Symbolism is not imaginary, as apparently everyone but you knows, but rather symbolizes things that are real. Hello? Why do the most basic things have to be spelled out to you? I think you're in over your head here.

 

[WPM]

That's the thing about Amil. They talk about "spiritual' things as if they were imaginary things. Satan is being held with spiritual chains, which aren't actually holding Satan at all.

And Amil is contradictory. Satan is bound but he isn't bound.

The wicked are depicted throughout Scripture as being in a spiritual prison, and bound by spiritual chains. Do you take that as literal, symbolic or imaginary?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. Quite the opposite. The Gentiles (the world) were deceived before Satan's banishment from heaven.

They are still being deceived.

They were in darkness.

They remain in darkness.

The light has shone on the nations.

Undoubtedly this is true. Those whom God choses will see the light. The rest remain in darkness and continue to be deceived as our brother Paul once said.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Since Paul believes that people are walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, then Satan is free to deceive and he is not bound.

Before Christ came, Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world.

This is not true. The Holy Spirit has always been in the world, sanctifying those whom God has chosen.

Satan was bound (or spiritually curtailed) in order to facilitate the invasion of his territory by the Gospel.

This is not true. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus called "The Spirit of Truth," facilitated the spread of the Gospel.

Remember, Satan is a spiritual being; he must therefore be spiritually bound.

When he is bound, he will no longer be able to deceive the nations. Currently he continues to deceive so he is not yet bound.

That is what happened at the cross.

That is not what happened at the cross. According to Paul, God reconciled the world to himself in Christ at the cross. According to Jesus, the Spirit of Truth was sent out to spread the gospel.

There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted.

Only for a limited number of Gentiles whom God has chosen by granting them the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Satan continues to direct the course of this world as the prince of the power of the air. He is therefore not bound.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Do you believe that Satan can be bound? I don't think you do. You say he has a limited scope of influence since the cross. And everyone knows that a limited scope is not no scope.

See what I mean? Contradictions all over the place.

 

[WPM]

They are still being deceived.

They remain in darkness.

Undoubtedly this is true. Those whom God choses will see the light. The rest remain in darkness and continue to be deceived as our brother Paul

Only for a limited number of Gentiles whom God has chosen by granting them the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Satan continues to direct the course of this world as the prince of the power of the air. He is therefore not bound.

You are not getting the meaning here. You are not getting the thrust. In doing so, you are inventing an age in-between this age and the age to come that Scripture does not recognize. You are foisting your faulty beliefs into the sacred text. You have to! You do not seem to grasp what Revelation 20 is teaching. You place a meaning on Revelation 20 that enjoys no other biblical support.

Isaiah 9:1-2 predicted the Messiah and the massive effective of the spread of the Gospel to the nations: “the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

 

[WPM]

They are still being deceived.

They remain in darkness.

Undoubtedly this is true. Those whom God choses will see the light. The rest remain in darkness and continue to be deceived as our brother Paul once said.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Since Paul believes that people are walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, then Satan is free to deceive and he is not bound.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Ephesians 3:5: "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20. Does that mean every single human being is no enlightened? Not necessarily. But, they are without excuse. There is a bright light shining globally through the success of the great commission.

2 Peter 1:19: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

Does this mean there is no darkness now?

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now?

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Premillennialists have to avoid these questions because they expose their narrow (and mistaken) reading of Revelation 20. They attribute much to that text that is unsupported elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it contradicts the ongoing narrative of Scripture.

The reality is, Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is not true. The Holy Spirit has always been in the world, sanctifying those whom God has chosen.

So, was Paul just making this up:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.