Is the story of Adam & Eve a parable?

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Aunty Jane

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How then do we reconcile God commanding a human army (the Isralites) to kill everything that breathes (Deu 20:16)? Yes, this was under the Old Covenant before there were Christians, but God Himself said He changes not (Mal 3:16).
I think you mean Mal 3:6….”For I am Jehovah; I do not change.”…..and he does not change, but that doesn’t mean he never alters his actions to accommodate his will. He does not change his standards, but lives up to the meaning of his name…”I will be what I will be”….(incorrectly translated to “I Am That I Am) Rather than proclaiming his existence which his people already knew, God was declaring that he would “be” or ”become” whatever he needed to be, in order to bring about the fulfillment of his purpose.

Under the new covenant, which cancelled out the old one, Jehovah now concentrated on “the Prince of Peace”….the discples of his son would “not learn war anymore”, as Isaiah prophesied….”In the final part of the days”. . . .
“He [Jehovah] will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,

Nor will they learn war anymore.” Isaiah 2:2-4)

In this “time of the end“ when the nations are at war, we have put down our weapons because we “will not learn war anymore”.
Even some early Christians, such as Saint Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas, believed in the concept of a just war. Clearly, the use of force to murder, as indicated in Gen 9:5–6, is morally wrong. But again, a distinction must be made between violence\murder and war\self-preservation.
The only “just” war is one sanctioned by God….but he has not sanctioned a war since Israel was defending their God-given land. Please tell me what land today is God-given?…and not stolen with bloodshed, from others who were there first?

Gen 9:5-6…
”Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother. 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.”

How do you read? How does God demand an accounting for the loss of human life?…and especially for “the life of his brother“…..in warfare, where those on opposing sides profess to be Christians, whose side is God on in that case? When brother slaughters brother, where is the Christian God?
Many Christians have chosen to follow Christ's example in allowing themselves to be marytered, and that is their choice. However, is it a sin to defend yourself?
Martyrdom is not something people choose…..obeying Christ is the choice, martyrdom is the consequence.
A Christian will take a bullet for his brother, but he will never fire one.
Will God hold it against someone if they resist being murdered? I don't believe so, and there is no scripture to indicate that either.
We are not to deliberately cause harm to anyone….resisting is indeed recommended, but not to the point that you place a person’s life in jeopardy.…..like Christ and the apostles we are to be non-violent. Peter was rebuked for using his sword.…remember? In Israel even an accidental manslayer was held accountable for taking someone’s life.

Matt 5:38-39…
”You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39 However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.” We are not to be provoked and then “return evil for evil”. (Rom 12:17-21)
God put the will to live in every living creature. Even the most docile animal will fight back if cornered. The bottom line is, there is no prohibition against self-defense.
The bottom line is that we are not animals. We have reasoning ability, and we are told to develop qualities that are called the “fruits of God’s spirit”…..”self control” is one such….
”the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Gal 5:22-23)

Try as you might, you can never justify violence at the hands of a genuine Christian….there is no way that a disciple of Jesus can have blood on their hands (Isa 1:15)….especially not innocent blood, with the indiscriminate use of weapons of mass destruction used in today’s warfare. No Christian can serve in the military because God does not uphold patriotism over adherence to the law of the Christ, which involves ‘loving our enemies’…not killing them. (Matt 5:43-44)
There will be an accounting.
 
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RedFan

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The only “just” war is one sanctioned by God….but he has not sanctioned a war since Israel was defending their God-given land. Please tell me what land today is God-given?…and not stolen with bloodshed, from others who were there first?
But when God issued the command recorded in Deut. 20:16-17, He mandated that the Promised Land be "stolen with bloodshed from others who were there first." You can't call that initial land grab "defending their God-given land." (The way you could call Jewish retaliation for October 7 "defending" it.)
 

Taken

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Is the story of Adam & Eve a parable?

Parable:
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson

Story:
a narrative, either true or [//B]fictitious

Yes…the story of Adam and Eve is a “parable”.

Yes…the “story” of Adam and Eve is true.

Why?
Because…
1) God can NOT Lie.
2) God does NOT “approve” of Lying.
3) God “approved” Scripture.

Every “story account” in Scripture revealed from the Lord God…is a Parable, revealing a moral or spiritual lesson.

Every “Parable” revealed from the Lord God…IS true.

The True MORAL / SPIRITUAL Lesson of Adam and Eve?

ManKIND is a body…
ManKIND’S Life is blood.
ALL ManKind “AGAINST” God….SHALL DIE.

ManKIND…First (Adam and Eve) were “NOT” born…rather were Created, Formed, Made…
“VERY GOOD”…

They “turned” AGAINST God.
Their Freewill Choice caused them the Consequence:
1) Of “DEATH” unto their body’s.
2) OF “THEIR” offspring to be Subject to Death of their body’s.

WHY?
Because it is the SEED….In a human, in an animal, in a tree, in a herb, in a vegetable, in a fruit…
THAT Re-produces it’s SAME “KIND” of thing.

THUS….
Adam and Eves’ Offspring … were reproduced from a Corrupt (AGAINST God)…SEED …. And all other humans thereafter…

It IS…
By Gods Grace….He OFFERS…to::
Restore…(save) a mans soul.
(Give) Gods Seed…to rebirth a mans spirit
(Promise)…to raise…a mans body perfected

IF a man IS: truly, heartfully, willing to ACCEPT Gods Offering, to become MADE WITH Him and no longer AGAINST Him.

So, shall it be done.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

MA2444

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Is Adam & Eve an allegory for the beginning of all men and women? Is it possible that God placed humans throughout the world and that the story of the garden is a parable? Are we supposed to believe that white, black, Indian & Asians all evolved from just two humans, Adam & Eve?

In parables scripture doesnt name the individuals or all of them. So, Adam & Eve....no parable there, only history. Oh but the different races of people are confusing? Simple. If you were making food and you prepared a certain recipe but you prepared two or four identical batches of the same recipe, and you cooked them differently, they would turn out different. Say you boil one batch and fry another batch and baxk another batch and broil the last batch. Would they turn out the same? No they would turn out differently.

Same thing with humans. If one family of humans goes and settles in a cold region, and his brothers family went to a very hot region, then the way they were baked over time would change the color of their skin. They might not even recognize each other over time, lol.

But only in America can a man be born a poor black child and grow up to be a rich white woman! (MJ) Lol
 
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Aunty Jane

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But when God issued the command recorded in Deut. 20:16-17, He mandated that the Promised Land be "stolen with bloodshed from others who were there first." You can't call that initial land grab "defending their God-given land." (The way you could call Jewish retaliation for October 7 "defending" it.)
What are you missing here RF? Whose land was it to begin with?

The land that Jehovah promised to Abraham was taken over by the Canaanites. So, why were the Canaanites displaced? Apart from the fact that the Canaanites were an extremely depraved people, (Deut 9:5) in a sense, they were squatters in a land that did not belong to them. How so? Some 400 years earlier, God had promised the faithful man Abraham that his descendants would possess the land of Canaan. (Gen 15:18)

God kept that promise when he brought the nation of Israel, (which descended from Abraham), in to occupy the region. Of course, some, like yourself, might protest that the Canaanites already lived there and therefore had a right to the land. But surely, as the Sovereign of the universe, God has the ultimate right to determine who will live where....and did so 400 years before he evicted that wicked nation. (Acts 17:26; 1 Cor 10:26)

Immorality, pagan worship, and child sacrifice were widespread in Canaan. Bible historian Henry H. Halley relates that archaeologists excavating the area “found great numbers of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal [a prominent god of the Canaanites].”.....and added: “The whole area proved to be a cemetery for new-born babes. . . . Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.” Do you wish to defend them?
 
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Lizbeth

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Is Adam & Eve an allegory for the beginning of all men and women? Is it possible that God placed humans throughout the world and that the story of the garden is a parable? Are we supposed to believe that white, black, Indian & Asians all evolved from just two humans, Adam & Eve?
I believe it's a true account but that there are also spiritual truths to be gleaned from the allegory which is also embedded in in it. "He speaks to us in parables", and we are told to compare spiritual with spiritual in scripture. It's like the account of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael....those things did happen but they were also written as an allegory, as Paul plainly said:

Gal 4:24

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Here below we see both a factual element of the Garden of Eden story being confirmed, as well as an example of allegory hidden in the writing of it:

Rom 5:12-14

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 

Wrangler

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But when God issued the command recorded in Deut. 20:16-17, He mandated that the Promised Land be "stolen with bloodshed from others who were there first." You can't call that initial land grab "defending their God-given land."
Agreed. AJ's politics/doctrines requires her to deny God commanded war in the conquest of Canaan.
 

Wrangler

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What are you missing here RF? Whose land was it to begin with?
It was the land of Canaan. Your origins obsession does not change the basic fact that it was the land of Canaan. It is never enough to possess the land to begin with. One must maintain possession or it then becomes the possession of another. Possession is 10/10's of the law, aka the right of conquest.

Supposing it belonged to anyone before shows a gross misunderstanding of Biblical history and property. Before Canaan, humanity was wiped out by the flood!
Some 400 years earlier, God had promised the faithful man Abraham that his descendants would possess the land of Canaan. (Gen 15:18)
The grandson of Noah came many centuries BEFORE Abraham. Curse of Ham - Wikipedia

From Canaan - Wikipedia, In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature

In the Biblical narrative, Ham's desecendants (Canaan) would serve descendants of Shem but this does not mean the land originally ever belongeed to anyone other than Canaan.
 

RedFan

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What are you missing here RF? Whose land was it to begin with?

The land that Jehovah promised to Abraham was taken over by the Canaanites. So, why were the Canaanites displaced? Apart from the fact that the Canaanites were an extremely depraved people, (Deut 9:5) in a sense, they were squatters in a land that did not belong to them. How so? Some 400 years earlier, God had promised the faithful man Abraham that his descendants would possess the land of Canaan. (Gen 15:18)

God kept that promise when he brought the nation of Israel, (which descended from Abraham), in to occupy the region. Of course, some, like yourself, might protest that the Canaanites already lived there and therefore had a right to the land. But surely, as the Sovereign of the universe, God has the ultimate right to determine who will live where....and did so 400 years before he evicted that wicked nation. (Acts 17:26; 1 Cor 10:26)

Immorality, pagan worship, and child sacrifice were widespread in Canaan. Bible historian Henry H. Halley relates that archaeologists excavating the area “found great numbers of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal [a prominent god of the Canaanites].”.....and added: “The whole area proved to be a cemetery for new-born babes. . . . Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.” Do you wish to defend them?
Fair point, but let's not forget that Abraham did not occupy all or even most of the Canaanite region. After a brief Egyptian detour he settled in Hebron, a tiny fraction of Canaan --and when Jacob's kids headed to Egypt, Abraham's extended progeny numbered probably less than 200. The rest of the land of Canaan was not uninhabited. And when the Exodus occurred, the progeny of those inhabitants who had been there pre-Abraham got slaughtered. (Not that the didn't deserve it . . .)

So, whose land was it to begin with? Not Abraham's.
 

Aunty Jane

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It was the land of Canaan. Your origins obsession does not change the basic fact that it was the land of Canaan. It is never enough to possess the land to begin with. One must maintain possession or it then becomes the possession of another. Possession is 10/10's of the law, aka the right of conquest.
And whose laws are you promoting now?
Israel was given permission by their God to take possession of the land he promised them….”the Promised Land”…..it was never given to the Canaanites in the first place…a people whose disgusting practices God abhorred. He used the Israelites to evict them and he had every right to do so. Your justifications do not work scripturally Wrangler….though you try so hard to prove your points, they are always from a flawed human perspective. Do you know God at all?
Supposing it belonged to anyone before shows a gross misunderstanding of Biblical history and property. Before Canaan, humanity was wiped out by the flood!
Why were they wiped out…..and who wiped them out? Who is grossly misunderstanding God’s position as Universal Sovereign here?
The grandson of Noah came many centuries BEFORE Abraham. Curse of Ham - Wikipedia
Yes, we see very early in the piece that the propensity for wickedness was prophesied. The Bible does not specify what Ham’s misdeed was in relation to his father, but it was serious enough to warrant a curse. God foresaw what would take place in the future in connection with Canaan….and Noah pronounced a family trait that would taint Ham’s lineage.
From Canaan - Wikipedia, In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature

In the Biblical narrative, Ham's desecendants (Canaan) would serve descendants of Shem but this does not mean the land originally ever belongeed to anyone other than Canaan.
It belonged to God…to give to whoever he chose…..you seem to be missing this important point. God never gave the land to Canaan. He made a promise to Abraham that he kept by allowing the Israelites to evict this depraved people.

It is true that the Israelites were influenced by the disgusting practices of the Canaanites, but they were also punished by God for doing so. The fell to sacrificing their own children in the fire to Molech…..was Jehovah going to turn a blind eye to that do you think? Was possession of the land and polluting it with disgusting practices going to be allowed to continue because the Canaanites were there first?

Do you understand why the nation of Israel were slaves in Egypt so that God needed to rescue them and take them to the land he promised them? Perhaps you need to brush up on your Bible history.
 

Aunty Jane

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So, whose land was it to begin with? Not Abraham's.
It wasn’t given to Abraham….it was promised to his descendants, who gained possession of it some 400 years later.

The Scriptures tell us that the Earth belongs to its Creator and he can give whatever portions of it he chooses, to whomever he chooses. Who has more right to do that ?

A precedent was set by the flood….God “evicted” a depraved people back then too, but by his own hand.
The hand of a man was used to preserve life in an ark built for that purpose….the instructions for which were provided in every detail by the one who found only one righteous man in existence at that time.
 
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Wrangler

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Aunty Jane

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You have no concept of who Jehovah was to Israel and why he chose them….was it because they were better than the ungodly nations around them? Hardly….

Did he support Israel in any war that was not in defense of that God-given land? Were israel known as conquerors of other lands offensively? Or was it only defensively? Israel needed to defend the land God gave them because it was good land and surrounding nations wanted it for themselves…..this is why Jehovah was a “God of war”….those nations that wanted to take Israel’s land for themselves, came in the name of their gods…..Israel defended their land in the name of the only true God….a message that was clearly enforced in the battles they won. When Israel tried to fight a battle that God did not sanction, he gave them over to their enemies to show them that bloodshed was not to be indiscriminate.…or for the wrong reason.

We do not live in that era nor are we under Israel’s laws…we are in the Christian Era under the guidance of “the Prince of Peace”……if his disciples are not at peace, they are not his disciples. (2 Peter 3:11-14)
‘Given by permission’ = Commanded to conquer. Using euphemisms does not change the fact. The Conquest of Canaan is not language meaning given without offensive military actions by YHWH’s command.
Oh boy…..you just won’t let it go and concede that you really don’t know what your talking about.
It’s not about language or euphemisms Wrangler, it’s about the truth…..not your version of it, but the Bible’s clear statements about the way it was, and is, and will be in the future.

Only Jehovah can sanction a war….which he hasn’t done since the diaspora when Israel as a nation failed to return “home” after the Babylonian captivity…only a “remnant” did that as it was prophesied.…but the holy land was never holy again, because Gentile powers subjugated God’s people and had conquered it with God’s permission. The “Gentile times” would run their full course, down to the end…..with a succession of world powers that dominated God’s people…..Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Britain and finally the dual alliance of Britain and America in these end times…..perhaps do some research on that….and educate yourself.

You can argue till the cows come home…..but I have done my job, so by informing you of the truth as it is stated biblically, my responsibility is fulfilled with you. You can take it or leave it…your choice, but you can never plead ignorance. We will all stand before the same judge as individuals, not as collective label wearers. We prove our Christianity by our actions, not just our empty words.
 
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Wrangler

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You have no concept of who Jehovah was to Israel and why he chose them….was it because they were better than the ungodly nations around them? Hardly….
Strawman. I never said anything like this.

Diversion. You are the one who keeps mentioning how horrible the Canaanites were AS IF it has any bearing on the point, which is God commanded offensive war.
 

TheHC

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The bible is the oldest book. It cannot be refuted by theories. Adam and Eve are real and DNA has proved all people came from the same, common to all, male and female originally.
Yes, it certainly is one of the oldest books!

And what you said regarding DNA, isn’t it interesting that scientists have found an individual female they’ve named MtEve (through mitochondrial DNA) and an individual male they’ve named chromosome-Y Adam?!

These scientists say that all humans living today descended from those two individuals.

According to them, the female Mt-Eve was first; then at a future date, all humans now living descended from chromosomal-Y Adam.

Although the timelines for both are way off by thousands of years, what they have really discovered is our ancestor Eve, and our ancestor Noah!
 

Aunty Jane

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Strawman. I never said anything like this.
Out of my post, you chose that one phrase which was not a strawman, but a legitimate statement leading to the reason why God could use his chosen nation as his executioners when the situation demanded it. Having his nation, although greatly outnumbered at times, gain the victory in battle was a demonstration to the pagan nations that their gods were useless, whereas Jehovah was the source of all strength and victory for his people.

Did he need Israel to fight his battles? We know he could have done what he did to the Assyrians…he sent one angel who wiped out an entire army of 85,000 men, who came to show Israel their military might……their arrogant king awoke the next morning alone in his enormous camp of dead soldiers.

Teaching the pagan nations not to mess with his people was done through their military victories, which at that time was appropriate….but in Christian times, no military action was necessary. There was no land to defend and Israel had no army. To join the military in the first century would be to fight for your enemy. The Jews hated being oppressed and subjugated by Rome. A Jewish rebellion was being hatched, but Jesus was no part of that.…it ended in tragedy at Masada.

The land of Canaan was “promised” to Israel….they served an eviction notice on the squatters, which was authorized by the owner of the land…..they were evicted. It wasn’t a land grab based merely on conquest…but the fulfillment of a promise from a God who always carries out his promises. (Isa 55:11)
Diversion. You are the one who keeps mentioning how horrible the Canaanites were AS IF it has any bearing on the point, which is God commanded offensive war.
Another label, which you seem to be fond of as if these labels somehow wave away the truth…..

1) The land belonged to the one who promised it to his own nation.

2) It was such a prime piece of real estate that other nations wanted to take possession of it for their own use…..they were the conquerors…..Israel never coveted the land of other nations because the land they were given was amazing! It was all that they needed and more. If only they would have remained obedient, the blessing would never have ceased, to be replaced by the curses. (Deut 30:19-20)

3) As archeologist will attest, the Canaanite people were extremely depraved and God had every right to demand their destruction, as he had already done with the flood of Noah’s day and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The so called “offensive war” was sanctioned by their God….with Israel given authority as his representatives…..no other wars fought by man were sanctioned by God, except those in defence of that God-given land.

How could God sanction the wars of the nations in a world he had handed over to the devil? (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-6)
The wars humans fight in our day are hardly spiritual, when according to Paul, that is the only kind of “warfare” that a Christian can engage in.

2 Cor 10:3-6….
”For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.” (ESV)

We have no sanction for the use of carnal weapons…period. The “strongholds” defended by you are destroyed by Scripture. Your “lofty opinions” ague with the knowledge of God.

How were the Christians “ready to punish” those who were disobedient to the teachings of the Christ?
They would expel them from fellowship with the faithful. (1 Cor 5:11-13) Any who failed to follow Christian teachings or who engaged in conduct that was condemned by God, was not permitted to remain in the congregation to become a bad influence on others.

Your arguments clearly lack evidence or any depth of Bible knowledge, Wrangler…your claims are empty.
You have a whole army of strawmen….
 
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Christian Soldier

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Well, there was also the flood and so Noah and his companions on the ark were, apparently, this world's first humans after life on the first world was wiped out.

Where it gets tricky (at least for me) is the belief that a male and a female of one race will produce people of another race.

I don't have the answers and it's irrelevant with regard to salvation. Just for fun!
There is only one race, and it's the human race, or better known as mankind. The various ethnic groups gained their distinct features as a result of adapting to the various climatic conditions around the world. We see the same results in the animal kingdom, an Artic Fox adapted to it's climate by growing a long white fur coat to blend in to it's surroundings.

Man also adapted to his climate in the same way, an Eskimo's skin and complexion evolved to suit his cold climate, while a Sub Saharan African's body adapted by evolving features to suit his environment. It would only take a few generations for our features to adapt and evolve to suit our environment.

Studies have shown that this evolution happens very fast, a pig was taken off a farm and let lose in the wilderness with a tracking device fitted to it. The pig grew long hair to keep it warm and it grew large husks to enable it to dig for food in the hard soil. These changes were observed during the pigs lifetime, but you can imagine it's offspring, would be born with these features and others to help them cope in that environment and they would look completely different within a few generations.
 
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Fred J

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Is Adam & Eve an allegory for the beginning of all men and women? Is it possible that God placed humans throughout the world and that the story of the garden is a parable? Are we supposed to believe that white, black, Indian & Asians all evolved from just two humans, Adam & Eve?
Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ, and may GOD the FATHER of our lord Jesus Christ bless everyone.

We are all from Adam and Eve through Noah and his three sons, scattered all over the earth. Watch in YouTube, Ken Ham, a simple illustration video titled, 'Atheists Will Hate This Video'.

Genesis ch. 1&2, reveals there were in the beginning two couples created. One in the garden of Eden and one outside the garden of Eden in the world. To the one inside the garden, GOD instructed them to the eat from the fruits within the garden, even to dress it and to keep it (Genesis 2:15&16).

Now, to the one outside of the garden, GOD instructed them, to be fruitful, and multiply. And replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over every thing in it (Genesis 1:28).

Significant key is, to the one created in the garden, outside the garden on earth, there were yet no every plant of the field. Neither were every herb of the field, yet before it grew even, moreover GOD had not caused it to rain upon the earth. Furthermore, there was not a man to till the ground on earth (Genesis 2:5).

But on the other hand, the one created outside the garden and on earth in the sixth day. Whereas, on the third day itself, already the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and fruit tree yielding fruit.

Adam and Eve only brought froth Cain and Abel when they were banished from the garden onto the earth, and multiplied. And another significant key is, Cain complains to GOD about other strangers already there on earth. Whom would have him slain since he is a fugitive and a vagabond.

Therefore GOD set a mark of protection on Cain, lest any find him should kill him. Since Cain got accepted among them, from them he found for himself a wife.

Now another significant key is, Cain was building a city naming after his son. Meaning, there were already an existing population there, and ones who revered him as master and chief.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
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NotTheRock

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Cain complains to GOD about other strangers already there on earth. Whom would have him slain since he is a fugitive and a vagabond.


Thanks. And from where or from whom did those other people come?
 
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