Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[WPM]

Do you want to present your argument? Why does it matter? John is speaking symbolically about his imprisonment. The only thing that matters is what the symbols mean. And what could it mean for the devil to be thrown into the abyss if it doesn't mean that he is unable to interact with human beings?

The abyss is a spiritual prison that holds spiritual prisoners on a chain. Satan can move, hurt, kill, steal and destroy within his prison, but he cannot prevent the advance of the Gospel or hurt those Christ owns.

The difference between a physical prison that you can see with the eye and a spiritual prison that is invisible to the eye is: it is not confined to one geographical location. It is basically a spiritual state of restraint. I don't think you are grasping the Amil position.

The whole portrayal of a dragon and serpent being chained in a prison, and then locked up with a key is spiritual symbolism to denote the restraint that Satan is under now through the glorious first advent of Christ. It depicts the authority that our Savior now holds and which has been delegated to us as we implement the great commission and invade Satan’s territory with the glorious Gospel of Christ.

Satan cannot/will not be held physically in a physical hole somewhere on/in the earth. After all, Satan is a spirit that cannot be physically restrained. He is a spirit that roams within divine parameters doing damage to those who are it’s enough to get close to him, listen to him or act on what he says.

The abyss is not a geographical place. It is a spiritual state. Read the text: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Rev 9:1).

The bottomless pit is only opened when the angel alights to earth. Simple!

 

[WPM]

Do you want to present your argument? Why does it matter? John is speaking symbolically about his imprisonment. The only thing that matters is what the symbols mean. And what could it mean for the devil to be thrown into the abyss if it doesn't mean that he is unable to interact with human beings?

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move or communicate with others on earth? When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison? Of course not. When it suits Premils they can easily grasp the symbolism throughout Scripture. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable. The most damning thing for their argument is, the setting we are looking at is undoubtedly extremely figurative.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Insisting that Satan is literally locked up in a physical geographical prison just because his symbolic equivalent is imprisoned is absurd. Whilst Premils try to force a hyper-literal interpretation on this they miss the whole underlying illustration of the triumph of Christ over Satan through His sinless life, His atoning death and His triumphant resurrection

It is so important in grasping the message being conveyed. We need to grasp what John actually saw. We need to gaze at what John was gazing at. It wasn’t a real picture, but it was couched in obscure symbolism that represented a literal reality. John is receiving a highly-symbolic apocalyptic vision in picture-form depicting a great spiritual truth. It is like a type of parable. The parable is representing something deeper. It is not the outward story or symbols that is the main issue but what it represents.

Of course, the imagery of chains and imprisonment being experienced by this dragon is intended to convey the real spiritual restraint, curtailment, damage, curtailment injury that has been executed upon our invisible spiritual foe since the 1st Advent; one that is not limited to a physical spatial geographical or physical place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you want to present your argument? Why does it matter? John is speaking symbolically about his imprisonment. The only thing that matters is what the symbols mean. And what could it mean for the devil to be thrown into the abyss if it doesn't mean that he is unable to interact with human beings?

Here's another way to look at this. We know that some of God's angels, including Satan, rebelled against Him long ago, right? Here's what scripture says God did to those fallen angels:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The fallen angels are described as being "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.". You recognize that "the great chain" referenced in Revelation 20:1 is symbolic, don't you? Or maybe you don't. I don't know. Regardless, have these "everlasting chains" that are on the fallen angels prevented them from interacting with human beings? No, right? So, why does a symbolic description of the dragon, Satan, being bound with a great chain have to mean that it prevents him from interacting with humans?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, you just repeated yourself and didn't address my points directly at all. Discussion over.

Your points aren't valid for the reasons I gave. Your point of view denies the obvious.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You want it to be both symbolic and literal. It makes no sense.

What did I say that would lead you to believe that I want it to be literal?

The whole description of Satan's binding is symbolic and we need to then discern what it symbolically represents.

I did that. The idea of a bottomless pit represents his inability to interact with anyone.

Satan himself cannot be bound with a chain.

I didn't say he could.

That's ridiculous. It says the dragon, which symbolically represents Satan, is bound with a chain in the abyss.

I pointed out that the term "abyss" means "bottomless" and being placed in a bottomless pit represents his inability to interact with others.

That whole description is symbolic, but you want to take it literally.

I don't take it literally.

How are you coming to that conclusion?

I begin with the symbol itself -- a bottomless pit. I then ask myself, "what is the essential feature of a bottomless pit as it pertains to being held captive?

What is being symbolized represents Satan being unable to deceive people.

Right. So since he is still able to deceive people, he has not been put into the bottomless pit.

But, we need to discern whether that is talking about his ability to deceive generally or, as amils, believe, his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness while having "no hope" and being "without Christ" and "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12) and his ability to keep people in slavery to the fear of death, as he was able to do in OT times, but no longer in NT times (Heb 2:14-15).

John gives us the answer to that question later in the chapter. When Satan is released from the bottomless pit, he brings Gog and Magog against the camp of the saints. Since the subject matter is focused on a geopolitical context, we don't need to look for a "spiritual" explanation.

LOL. You keep saying that, but I don't know how you are coming to that conclusion. It doesn't say he is bound from making contact with anyone, it says he is bound from deceiving the "ethnos" (people) of the world which number "as the sand of the sea".

The meaning is the same. A symbol works by representing something beyond it's literal meaning, but in order for the symbol to be effective, it must share some aspect with the target. In this case, being placed in a bottomless pit represents the inablity to make contact with anyone.

Your evidence is very flimsy and based only on an assumption that a symbolic representation of a dragon being chained up in a bottomless pit symbolizes Satan being unable to do anything.

How is that flimsy?

That's not what his binding means, though. Do you think that in order to bind the strong man, Jesus had to completely incapacitate Satan?

The binding of a strong man is an analogy, illustrating the act of casting out a demon. Jesus doesn't say that Satan is the strong man or the one being bound in that context.

I think you said that you see the strong man as representing the demon who was possessing people and that that Jesus cast out. Even in that case, did Jesus have to completely incapacitate the demon in order to "plunder his house" and "carry off his possessions"? No. So, your understanding of what it means to bind Satan is flawed. He doesn't have to be completely incapacitated in order to be bound.

This statement presents a contradiction. Overcoming someone by binding them completely results in their incapacitation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Regardless, have these "everlasting chains" that are on the fallen angels prevented them from interacting with human beings?

Yes. That's the point.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move or communicate with others on earth?

In such cases, the Bible is speaking metaphorically, but John is not speaking metaphorically about Satan. He is using symbolic language to describe Satan's status during the Millennial Period. The essential meaning of a bottomless pit is that it is so deep that the person trapped there can't escape. John also says that the pit is covered with a lid that can't be removed, indicating that not only is the person unable to escape, but no one is able to set him free or visit him.

Your questions probed the nature of Satan, whether he is a physical being or not. His nature is not relevant because the bottomless pit is symbolic. Whatever it would take to have the same effect is what will keep Satan from roaming the earth or being able to make contact with anyone.

Insisting that Satan is literally locked up in a physical geographical prison just because his symbolic equivalent is imprisoned is absurd.

Why is it absurd? Satan is literally locked up. The symbol of the bottomless pit represents an effect. The bottomless pit is not a literal bottomless pit, but the effect is the same. Just as a human being, placed in a literal bottomless pit is unable to roam or interact with other human beings; Satan will be unable to roam or interact with human beings. The means and the manner are not significant. Only the effect is relevant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your points aren't valid for the reasons I gave. Your point of view denies the obvious.

LOL. You mean the weak reasons you gave that were as convincing at telling me that 1 + 1 = 3? Those reasons?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. That's the point.

You have even less discernment than I thought. No, those fallen angels are not literally chained up. They are the demons who have been quite active ever since God reserved them for judgment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. You mean the weak reasons you gave that were as convincing at telling me that 1 + 1 = 3? Those reasons?

Not playing this game.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What did I say that would lead you to believe that I want it to be literal?

You indicated that you saw Satan himself as being literally imprisoned. You're acting as if the symbol has to resemble what it symbolizes.

In another post you just said "Satan is literally locked up.". And you're asking me why I think you want it to be literal? You are taking the symbolism literally, thereby making the symbolism pointless. In Revelation 17, it describes a woman sitting on many waters and upon a scarlet colored beast with seven heads and ten horns. Does any of that resemble what that symbolizes in reality? Not at all, right? So, it seems that you don't understand symbolism at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This statement presents a contradiction. Overcoming someone by binding them completely results in their incapacitation.

What are you talking about? If you think of Jesus casting out a demon as what it means for Him to bind the strong man, then how is He completely incapacitating that demon by doing so? He's not. He's removing the demon from within the person he was possessing, but he is still free to do other things after that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have even less discernment than I thought. No, those fallen angels are not literally chained up. They are the demons who have been quite active ever since God reserved them for judgment.

Your insults reveal a weak position. Try making arguments instead.

Llet's review this together.

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day . . .

Nothing in this passage indicates the use of symbolic language. My translation has "bonds" the NKJV has "chains." Obviously James is not discussing metal/physical restraints, but the effect is the same however angels are bound. In fact, one could argue that the darkness itself is in view, restraining the angels.

Bottom line: they can have no influence on anyone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your insults reveal a weak position. Try making arguments instead.

No, my insults reveal that your arguments are so weak that they're barely worth even responding to.

Llet's review this together.

Yes, let's.

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day . . .

Nothing in this passage indicates the use of symbolic language. My translation has "bonds" the NKJV has "chains." Obviously James is not discussing metal/physical restraints, but the effect is the same however angels are bound. In fact, one could argue that the darkness itself is in view, restraining the angels.

Bottom line: they can have no influence on anyone.

New Testament scripture shows them having plenty of influence, so why don't you take that into account? Unless you think them possessing people and such is "no influence".

 

[CadyandZoe]

You indicated that you saw Satan himself as being literally imprisoned. You're acting as if the symbol has to resemble what it symbolizes.

Of course, that's how symbols work. Take, for instance, the symbolic description of Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth. The sword represents military power and the mouth represents his ability to command.

What does a bottomless pit represent if not a cage with no possibility of escape?

In another post you just said "Satan is literally locked up."

Yes, he will be.

And you're asking me why I think you want it to be literal? You are taking the symbolism literally, thereby making the symbolism pointless. In Revelation 17, it describes a woman sitting on many waters and upon a scarlet colored beast with seven heads and ten horns. Does any of that resemble what that symbolizes in reality?

Yes, it does. It's only a matter of knowing in what way the symbol and the target are alike.

John says that Satan will be bound and thrown into a bottomless pit. We don't need to know the actual method of binding or imprisonment. The point of comparison between the symbol and the target idea is the effect of a bottomless pit. When someone is thrown into a pit, they are unable to escape and they have no contact with other people. That is the common point of comparison between the symbol and the actuality.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, my insults reveal that your arguments are so weak that they're barely worth even responding to.


Yes, let's.


New Testament scripture shows them having plenty of influence, so why don't you take that into account? Unless you think them possessing people and such is "no influence".

Where do you get that idea?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let's review the text again because I think there is come confusion between the binding of Satan and the release of prisoners.

Revelation 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Take note of the fact that not only is Satan bound, he is also thrown into the abyss, and the lid was not only shut, it was sealed.

Being bound and being in the bottomless pit is the same thing. It is to restrain his power to deceive the nations. It is not a physical place.

In this context, the strong man is not the Devil but the servant of the Devil—the demon that Jesus cast out. The strong man is not Satan in this analogy; it's the demon. And the house is the demon-possessed person.

You do not make any sense at all, sorry to say. The strong man controls the house (world) with goods that represents the people who will be God's. The attacker represents Jesus, who defeats Satan with his earthly ministry (tying Satan up), so he could spoil (save) people from Satan's house. This way, Jesus removed Satan's grasp from those who would eventually trust in and accept Christ.

The strong man is hardly a "demon." It is clearly Satan.

Do you even know what a demon is? It is an evil spirit "OF" Satan of man! Not a spiritual being under Satan that is powerful enough to control the world. Silly!

Even if Satan was the subject of his analogy

It does!

, Jesus doesn't put the devil into the abyss and lock the door.

By first binding the strong man is the same thing being thrown into the bottomless pit in Revelation 20.

Jesus simply binds him long enough to free someone from demon possession. As Peter says, the devil continues to prowl.

Can't you read the context of the Scripture carefully?

Mat 12:27-29
(27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

It is about bringing God's kingdom among you by FIRST binding the strong man which is Satan becasue he controls the HOUSE (world). Not demon. The spoil has NOTHING to do with freeing every Saint from being "demon possessed." You are watching too many Hollywood movies.

Okay. Since Satan is still active in the world

True, through the unsaved people who are still in his house.

he is not bound and he has not been thrown into the abyss.

He was bound. He has been in the bottomless pit at the Cross. And he may already be loosened recently!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course, that's how symbols work. Take, for instance, the symbolic description of Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth. The sword represents military power and the mouth represents his ability to command.

So, you do get it. The symbols don't have to resemble what they symbolize. And, yet, that's how you understand the dragon being chained up in the abyss/bottomless pit. You say Satan himself is literally locked up. No, his binding is symbolically represented that way. But, he's no more literally locked up than the beast literally has seven heads and ten horns.

What does a bottomless pit represent if not a cage with no possibility of escape?

It represents that whatever Satan is bound from doing, he is fully bound from doing it with no chance that he can unbind himself, so to speak. But, we obviously disagree on what he is bound from doing. In my view, he is bound from preventing the light of the gospel and God's word from shining throughout the world to give them the hope of eternal life that they previously didn't have in Old Testament times (Ephesians 2:11-13, Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, etc.).

John says that Satan will be bound and thrown into a bottomless pit. We don't need to know the actual method of binding or imprisonment.

Now, here you are taking it literally again. Can you make up your mind? Do you believe it's symbolism or not? None of it is literal. We know the dragon represents Satan. The dragon is bound with a great chain. The great chain is not literal. And he is bound in the bottomless pit. Again, not literal. None of it. All of that symbolically describes the binding of Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where do you get that idea?

Get what idea? Do you not think that demons are fallen angels?

 

[TribulationSigns]

The term Abyss comes from the Greek word ἄβυσσοs, which literally means "bottomless" John is saying that the Devil will be thrown into a bottomless pit. The essential aspect of his symbolic wording is the two-fold idea that he can't get out and we can't get in. In other words, during that time Satan will not be able to interact with anyone at all.

You do not understand.

Verse 3 of Revelation chapter 20 is illustrating that when The Messenger (Christ) came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in bondage. God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads. This is the Purpose is clearly that God keep him bound till the appointed time after the testimony of the saints is finished and all Israel is saved. When the Lord sets His seal upon something, you can be sure that it won't get out until "the time" the Lord alone releases Satan. So like everything else here, this seal is "symbolic" of something being "secured of God". No one secured or sealed of God can loose themselves. And my friends, that includes us, the believers. We are eternally secure (sealed) by God. And since it wasn't by our own good that we were secured, it cannot be by our own good we are held secure. Grace!

Therefore, the bottomless pit simply means that Satan was restrained or limited so that he could not frustrate God's plan with His Church. Not put Satan somewhere safe from Earth so he cannot "interact with anyone at all." This is wrong. Satan's power has been restrained (which is what bottomless pit represents) until that appointed time when He will let Satan out and be used as a tool of judgment upon His unfaithful church - everyone who has NOT YET SEALED by God, Revelation 9:3-6. Where professed Christians will seek salvation or have desired ot be saved by death in Christ, but cannot find it or it has been removed from them. It is becasue the days of salvation is over and the judgment of God on the Church has begun. In other words, Satan is allowed to deceive those WITHIN the congregation that they cannot find salvation until Christ comes.