The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Super Kal]

Thanks for your effort…really too much he said, he said…
I am content with what Jesus said first hand and his Apostles who heard first hand….and Christ Jesus’ Offering to Give His Understanding to “HIS” Church, of which I joined a long time ago..

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

That's why the testimony of Papias is so important. Both Eusebius and Irenaeus quote from Papias, and those are the only fragments that we have of his writings, and Irenaeus quotes from Papias, and it says:

"As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: "The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.' In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man."

Fragment iv.

biblehub.com

Now, I have no reason to believe that this isnt true... I believe that Papias quoted from Jesus, and this is one of the very few writings that we have from an extra biblical source, from a person who lived in the time of Jesus and the time of the Apostles, and Papias listened to the Apostle John, and the Apostle John said that Jesus made these sayings, I believe that.

Now, like I said, I am a pre millennialist, and I agree that you can derive premillennialism from the Scriptures, but another reason, one of the main reasons, that people have believed premillennialism in the past was because of the oral teachings that one was taught from Apostle, to student, to student...

As a matter of fact, that's what the term "apostolic succession" originally meant. it was not the carrying of the title of Apostle from person to person, it was the teaching of the truth that was transferred from person to person.
I'm not Catholic, and I'm not Eastern Orthodox, both of their definitions of what "apostolic succession" is, is wrong. Roman Catholicism gets it more wrong than Eastern Orthodox, because Catholicism focuses on the title of pope, and the eastern Orthodox focuses on the title apostle. In reality, it's just simply the transfer of teaching of truth from teacher to student.

David Bercot Does a great job In his book The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs indexing and clarifying what apostolic succession is, and what the early church said it was, and how they used it.

But please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that the reason we should hold premillennialism is simply because it was taught by the early church...
I am saying that we should hold to premillennialism because it is found within the scriptures, the fact that the earliest church taught it is not a hindrance to this truth, it strengthens this truth, because it shows the accuracy of this doctrine, because if Jesus did teach it, then this teaching would be reflected in the students of the Apostles... and it is reflected in the students of the Apostles.

 

[Taken]

That's why the testimony of Papias is so important. Both Eusebius and Irenaeus quote from Papias, and those are the only fragments that we have of his writings, and Irenaeus quotes from Papias, and it says:

"As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: "The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.' In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man."

Fragment iv.

biblehub.com

Now, I have no reason to believe that this isnt true... I believe that Papias quoted from Jesus, and this is one of the very few writings that we have from an extra biblical source, from a person who lived in the time of Jesus and the time of the Apostles, and Papias listened to the Apostle John, and the Apostle John said that Jesus made these sayings, I believe that.

Now, like I said, I am a pre millennialist, and I agree that you can derive premillennialism from the Scriptures, but another reason, one of the main reasons, that people have believed premillennialism in the past was because of the oral teachings that one was taught from Apostle, to student, to student...

As a matter of fact, that's what the term "apostolic succession" originally meant. it was not the carrying of the title of Apostle from person to person, it was the teaching of the truth that was transferred from person to person.
I'm not Catholic, and I'm not Eastern Orthodox, both of their definitions of what "apostolic succession" is, is wrong. Roman Catholicism gets it more wrong than Eastern Orthodox, because Catholicism focuses on the title of pope, and the eastern Orthodox focuses on the title apostle. In reality, it's just simply the transfer of teaching of truth from teacher to student.

David Bercot Does a great job In his book The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs indexing and clarifying what apostolic succession is, and what the early church said it was, and how they used it.

But please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that the reason we should hold premillennialism is simply because it was taught by the early church...
I am saying that we should hold to premillennialism because it is found within the scriptures, the fact that the earliest church taught it is not a hindrance to this truth, it strengthens this truth, because it shows the accuracy of this doctrine, because if Jesus did teach it, then this teaching would be reflected in the students of the Apostles... and it is reflected in the students of the Apostles.

Thanks for sharing your interest and view. I am content with Scripture as my source to Trust.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Super Kal]

Thanks for sharing your interest and view. I am content with Scripture as my source to Trust.

Glory to God,
Taken

And I 100% applaud that. I will never ever tell another person to take the early church writings as foundational authority over the scriptures, because that's not what the Bible teaches, and I will always rely on the scriptures for my foundation of Truth, yet even the scriptures themselves never said that only scripture is to be used...

2 Thessalonians 2:15 tells us to stand firm in the traditions which you have been taught either by word of mouth or written letter

Both written tradition and oral tradition were a big thing in the days of Jesus, and while the written tradition would be the holy scriptures, the oral tradition would be that which is taught from Apostle, to student, to student

 

[Keraz]

Do we as believers have eternal life right now?

Not yet. We have the Promise of immortality, as Christians with our name Written in the Book of Life.
But it is possible to sin and have your name erased from that Book.

 

[WPM]

sure
I do want you to know, though, so that we're all on the same page...
I affirm premillennialism, I'm not saying it's wrong... I agree with the early church and their belief in premillennialism...
after all, the Apostle John had two known students of his own, Polycarp of Smyrna and Ignatius of Antioch.
Polycarp had his own student as well, Irenaeus
Irenaeus also had his own student, Hippolytus
it was from Hippolytus that we get the first interpretation that Daniel 9:27 is referencing the seven year tribulation period

one doesnt have to be a Dispensationalist in order to be a premillennial

Eusebius, in regards to Papias, who was a premillennialist:
Ecclesiastical History (book III, ch. 39)
“The same person, moreover, has set down other things as coming to him from unwritten tradition, amongst these some strange parables and instructions of the Savior, and some other things of a more fabulous nature. Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on earth.”

"To these [writings] belong [Papias's] statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures."

https://www.wrs.edu/assets/docs/Journals/1995a/Frank%20-%20Survey%20of%20Early%20Premil.pdf

"For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenaeus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views."(Ecc. History, 3.39)

"It leads them [believers] to hope for small and mortal things in the kingdom of God and for things such as exist now.”

Eusebius of Caesarea, the Roman Empire, and the Fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy: Reassessing Byzantine Imperial Eschatology in the Age of Constantine | Church History | Cambridge Core

Eusebius of Caesarea, the Roman Empire, and the Fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy: Reassessing Byzantine Imperial Eschatology in the Age of Constantine - Volume 90 Issue 3

www.cambridge.org

Eusebius himself was an amillennialist. He also followed in the footsteps of Origen, highly regarded Origen, and believed that Matthew 24 was a fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD... in other words, he was a preterist.

I am Amil, but believe key parts of Matthew 24 were "a fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD" does not make one a preterist. I also believe Daniel 9 is historic and fulfilled.

 

[Super Kal]

I am Amil, but believe key parts of Matthew 24 were "a fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD" does not make one a preterist. I also believe Daniel 9 is historic and fulfilled.

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying that's what you believed... I was simply showing that's what Eusebius believed

 

[WPM]

No. You have pretended to have been avoided multiple times.....................HERE IS THE REPSONSE THAT YOU KEEP RUNNING FROM.

Always the same. Deny that you have been addressed. Claim avoidance. It's always about the protecting the false doctrine and never about the truth.

Here are my answers when you asked this before. And yet you claimed I did not answer.
Did you avoid responding to my answers?

Always deny, deny, deny. Never about the truth.

Ok


The world is not destroyed at the 6th seal. The sixth seal is the second coming. This coming does not occur at the 7th trumpet.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God is getting to happen when the 7th seal is opened. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There is a harvest, and the world is cast into the 1 year, Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which we also see in Rev 14
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Summary.............Jesus comes at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. THEN the 7th seal is opened and the trumpet of wrath begin. The 7th seal is the one year Day of the Lord.


There is no second part of the 6th seal. Jesus comes. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. They try to hide in caves etc because they know that the 1 year Day of the Lord is about to begin.


You need to understand that Revelation 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seals as does Rev 13. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal as they are raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. Here is the great tribulation in Revelation 14. And we know that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation and is OVER at the 6th seal as Christ has returned for a harvest.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Those 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest. They do not go through 7th seal wrath of God. They have to be in heaven before the 5th seal which is the great tribulation.


There are other trumpets. The last trump is the last of a series of 100 trumpet blasts. The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, the day of the fall fruit harvest. These feasts of God tell us exactly what is going to occur in the last days.

Where in Revelation does it teach "the 1 year Day of the Lord"?

The 6th seal is the end.

The last trump is the end. These are recaps.

 

[WPM]

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying that's what you believed... I was simply showing that's what Eusebius believed

I was showing you that believing that did not automatically make him a preterist.

 

[The Light]

The world will see the appearance of the sign of the Son of man in heaven in the sixth seal event.

Then, in fear of being judged, the kings of the earth react and assembly their armies at Armageddon for 45 days.

Then, Jesus descends to earth, His Second Coming, executes judgment and destroys those armies.

I keep telling you this is impossible. The 7th seal wrath of God is 1 year.

Revelation 9
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Here is 5 months. Five Months is 150 days. Therefore, the 45 day number will not work. Put away the sledgehammer and quit beating things into place. Things must fit correctly. JESUS RETURNS AT THE 6TH SEAL. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal, seen in Revelation 14

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[Super Kal]

I was showing you that believing that did not automatically make him a preterist.

If you want the quote that shows that he was a preterist I can definitely provide that for you

 

[WPM]

The marriage does not occur in the air. It occurs in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.




The armies leave heaven..........where the throne is.



He is coming with wrath. He will then set up His kingdom on earth as His feet will touch the mount of Olives.


Here are the parallels short and simple.

Revelation 4 and 5 shows the Lord has come for His bride.
Revelation 6, the 1st 6 seal is what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal it is a harvest seen in Rev 14.
The 7th seal is the 1-year day of the Lord, wrath of God.
Wrath is over and the 7th trumpet.

Want another view?
Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals
Revelation 16 and 16 occur in the 7th seal

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. We get 3 views of Noah loading the animals, but He only loads them once. We get three views of the flood but there is one flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st 6 seals.................Revelation 6 and Revelation 13-14.
We get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.......................Revelation 8-11 and Revelation 12-16


So you have been answered again. Where is your detailed point by point response?

You have no fear of God, which is why you don't fear leading others from the truth. This is also why you have no wisdom or understanding.

Jesus and the dead in Christ come to meet us in the air from heaven. That is where it starts. But heaven comes to the new earth at rhe coming of Christ. .

 

[WPM]

If you want the quote that shows that he was a preterist I can definitely provide that for you

Go ahead. I do not see any of the ECFs as modern day Preterists in their writings.

 

[WPM]

That is not the Church in Rev 12. Those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman which is the twelve tribes across the earth.


Those are 144,000 from the 12 tribes in heaven. These events in Rev 13 and 14 take place in the 1st 6 seals.



This is the gathering from heaven and earth which is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the 1-year Day of the Lord, wrath of God

The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe. They are different views with different info of the same timeframe..............The Day of the Lord.

All of what I presented are recapitulations, including Rev 20.

 

[Taken]

Not yet. We have the Promise of immortality, as Christians with our name Written in the Book of Life.
But it is possible to sin and have your name erased from that Book.

Seems you have confused TWO Books…Everyones name is IN The BOOK of life from the foundation of the world…
And from THAT BOOK, names CAN BE BLOTTED OUT.

The LAMBS BOOK of life…no name can be blotted out….BECAUSE their names are ENTERED AFTER they have become SANCTIFIED….

 

[Douggg]

I keep telling you this is impossible. The 7th seal wrath of God is 1 year.

The opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8 is not called the wrath of God in the text.

In Revelation 16, are the seven vials of God's wrath.

 

[The Light]

Where in Revelation does it teach "the 1 year Day of the Lord"?

Go in Revelation to where it talks about Moses and the Israelites wandering for 40 years. It's the next verse.

The 6th seal is the end.

Exactly, the end of the age. And then the wrath of God begins.

The last trump is the end.

Exactly, the end of the 1-year wrath of God

These are recaps.

The trumpets and vials happen in the same time frame known as the wrath of God.

 

[WPM]

Seems you have confused TWO Books…Everyones name is IN The BOOK of life from the foundation of the world…
And from THAT BOOK, names CAN BE BLOTTED OUT.

The LAMBS BOOK of life…no name can be blotted out….BECAUSE their names are ENTERED AFTER they have become SANCTIFIED….

Not so. It says the opposite. It says their names would not be blotted out

 

[WPM]

Go in Revelation to where it talks about Moses and the Israelites wandering for 40 years. It's the next verse.


Exactly, the end of the age. And then the wrath of God begins.


Exactly, the end of the 1-year wrath of God

The trumpets and vials happen in the same time frame known as the wrath of God.

You cannot furnish biblical proof, only faulty opinions. This is what Pretribbers do a lot. If you had Scripture you would show it.

 

[The Light]

Jesus and the dead in Christ come to meet us in the air from heaven.

Exactly, Jesus and the dead in Christ come to meet the alive that remain.

That is where it starts. But heaven comes to the new earth at rhe coming of Christ. .

Exactly. There is a new heaven and new earth

 

[Super Kal]

Go ahead. I do not see any of the ECFs as modern day Preterists in their writings.

Eusebius has never been called, and never will be called, an ECF.

“The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies…The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions.”
(Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
(Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI – Chapter 13)

“I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ’s Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: “Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him.”
(Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII – Chapter 3)

“When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled.”
(Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

“But after the prophecy of the events that happened to the Jewish nation in the intermediate period between the seven and sixty-two weeks, there follows the prophecy of the new Covenant announced by our Saviour. So when all the intermediate matter between the seven and the sixty-two weeks is finished, there is added, “And he will confirm (b) a Covenant with many one week,” and in half the week the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and on the Holy Place shall come the abomination of desolation, and until the fullness of time fullness shall be given to the desolation. Let us consider how this was fulfilled.”
(Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

“Who shall have this peace, but the earth, in which the flocks of the Lord shall be glorified? And it is plain to all that this was fulfilled after the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
(Proof, VII)

(On the Significance of A.D.70)
“If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.”
(Book III, Ch. VII)

“The lamentation and wailing was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction.”
(The Proof of the Gospel, Bk. VIII, Ch.4, sect.412.)

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