Poll: Do we worship the God of the old covenant?

[Carl Emerson]

How else could it be taken but literally?
I agree that he didn't adhere to it. The Samaritan and the Canaanite women.

Paul referred to 'Israel' as a spiritual grouping of the Elect - Jesus was likely making the same distinction.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Paul referred to 'Israel' as a spiritual grouping of the Elect - Jesus was likely making the same distinction.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”

Wouldn't that disclude Israel from the end times prophecies?

Matthew 10:23 NIV
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you,
you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wouldn't that disclude Israel from the end times prophecies?

Matthew 10:23 NIV
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you,
you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

[

NO... there is still a future time of the Jews when the Nation will repent... Some think they will however be expelled from the land first and return as believers.

 

[St. SteVen]

NO... there is still a future time of the Jews when the Nation will repent... Some think they will however be expelled from the land first and return as believers.

But, are you saying they will be called something other than Israel?
You wrote...

Paul referred to 'Israel' as a spiritual grouping of the Elect

What about the ACTUAL Israel? They are still with us.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

But, are you saying they will be called something other than Israel?
You wrote...

What about the ACTUAL Israel? They are still with us.

[

Maybe you haven't understood what I am saying or I don't explain it well.

First off there are two Israel's according to Paul - one is the physical decendants of Abraham and the other are the Elect who have Abraham as their father by faith.

We have to be careful which group is being referred to.

When Jesus speaks of only bringing the Good News to Israel and then shares it with non-Jews - one has to ask which Israel He was referring to. It only makes sense if He is talking about the Elect.

Meantime the Nation of Israel exists today fore-filling the promise of the Nation being born in a day as prophesied.

But His people are still in unbelief so the revival among His people that Paul spoke of has not yet happened.

But I have no calling to teach on end times so I can only suggest how the verse where Jesus speaks of taking the Good News to Israel only - might be understood.

I approach Scripture expecting no contradictions - and if they seem to present, I ask for inspiration about the matter and leave the issue upstairs.

 

[Spyder]

No offense intended, but I have never seen that distinction as an issue.
Learning that God's name is Yahweh did not clarify much for me.
I already understood that the OT was referring to the "One True God".

God's name is VERY significant information for some, and just information to others.
Unless I am missing something significant here. Please inform, thanks.

[

I think we err when we think people read and comprehend like we do.

I have had many in my small group who never even considered the fact that Yahweh's name was "removed" from our bibles. (THAT is a sore point for me. I don't think it pleases Yahweh, either.)

Then, these same people read the New Testament and subconsciously read the word "Lord" and do not consider who this title represents. I am aware that some bibles use LORD for Yahweh and Lord for both Yeshua and all the rest of the people called Lord in that culture.

I've seen the confused faces of those in our study group when I ask "which Lord" during a discussion. We don't need more confusion for those reading the Bible, but here we are.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have had many in my small group who never even considered the fact that Yahweh's name was "removed" from our bibles. (THAT is a sore point for me. I don't think it pleases Yahweh, either.)

Why was that done? ("removing" the name) Do you think there was a malicious reason, or a practical one?

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think we err when we think people read and comprehend like we do.

I have had many in my small group who never even considered the fact that Yahweh's name was "removed" from our bibles. (THAT is a sore point for me. I don't think it pleases Yahweh, either.)

Then, these same people read the New Testament and subconsciously read the word "Lord" and do not consider who this title represents. I am aware that some bibles use LORD for Yahweh and Lord for both Yeshua and all the rest of the people called Lord in that culture.

I've seen the confused faces of those in our study group when I ask "which Lord" during a discussion. We don't need more confusion for those reading the Bible, but here we are.

Putting a spanner in the works... I have come to believe that Jesus was given the Father's Name according to John 17:

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

So rocking the boat - I now believe 'Jesus' is in fact the Father's Name. (happy to be corrected.)

 

[St. SteVen]

So rocking the boat - I now believe 'Jesus' is in fact the Father's Name. (happy to be corrected.)

Do you have more than the interpretation of one passage to verify the claim?

I'm pretty sure the Father's name is not Jesus. Unless God is now beside himself.

Hebrews 12:1-2 NIV
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles.
And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.
For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame,
and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you have more than the interpretation of one passage to verify the claim?

I'm pretty sure the Father's name is not Jesus. Unless God is now beside himself.

Hebrews 12:1-2 NIV
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles.
And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.
For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame,
and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[

The Father and Jesus are One...

And always were...

what is the boundless greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Eph 1)

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Phil 2)

By the way Jesus = Heb. Yeshua which comes from the Hebrew Yehoshua simply means 'God delivers'.

 

[Spyder]

Putting a spanner in the works... I have come to believe that Jesus was given the Father's Name according to John 17:

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

So rocking the boat - I now believe 'Jesus' is in fact the Father's Name. (happy to be corrected.)

My brother Carl, your quotation is not complete. Look at more of the prayer and think about what else Yeshua said:

Jn 17:13–23 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Using your reasoning, if Jesus in now Yahweh, then so are we. Perhaps it would be better to understand that being one with the Father is to be one in spirit, purpose, and mission - not combining in identities.

I think that taking these passages literally would mean that we will all be God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My brother Carl, your quotation is not complete. Look at more of the prayer and think about what else Yeshua said:

Jn 17:13–23 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Using your reasoning, if Jesus in now Yahweh, then so are we. Perhaps it would be better to understand that being one with the Father is to be one in spirit, purpose, and mission - not combining in identities.

I think that taking these passages literally would mean that we will all be God.

Hey - first off, I much appreciate you kind consideration of my conclusion regarding the Name of the Father and the Son.

Regarding the passage you quoted also in John 17 above - in my view this does not imply that we all end up with the same status as the Father and the Christ - this was never a conclusion I made, and is not one to appropriately claim I have stated.
Looking at the passage carefully there are two distinct unities spoken of.
First the unity between the Father and the Son, Second the unity between the Son and His Body of believers. Consider the difference - the risen Christ shares the Omniscience with the Father. He sees every detail of the Glory of God in totality. That unity of understanding is only experienced in the Trinity.
But for us, that is not the case. - a delight in our resurrected state is to enjoy the ongoing appreciation of His Glory like the 24 elders who have been bowing before the throne in eternity - looking up and seeing more of His Glory and bowing down again and again and again for eternity.
So for us in the unity of the Son - ongoing revelation of His Glory in eternity.
For Him in the unity of the Father - full Knowledge of all of His Glory since His ascension.

Now the issue of recognising the Name of the Father given to the Son is a different issue that is rarely discussed.
We worship the "God Who Saves" - Yehoshua in the Hebrew, the Name He gave to the Son - the Name above every name. In English the Name of Jesus.

That does not make us equal to God - that would be blasphemous.

 

[Spyder]

Hey - first off, I much appreciate you kind consideration of my conclusion regarding the Name of the Father and the Son.

Regarding the passage you quoted also in John 17 above - in my view this does not imply that we all end up with the same status as the Father and the Christ - this was never a conclusion I made, and is not one to appropriately claim I have stated.
Looking at the passage carefully there are two distinct unities spoken of.
First the unity between the Father and the Son, Second the unity between the Son and His Body of believers. Consider the difference - the risen Christ shares the Omniscience with the Father. He sees every detail of the Glory of God in totality. That unity of understanding is only experienced in the Trinity.
But for us, that is not the case. - a delight in our resurrected state is to enjoy the ongoing appreciation of His Glory like the 24 elders who have been bowing before the throne in eternity - looking up and seeing more of His Glory and bowing down again and again and again for eternity.
So for us in the unity of the Son - ongoing revelation of His Glory in eternity.
For Him in the unity of the Father - full Knowledge of all of His Glory since His ascension.

Now the issue of recognising the Name of the Father given to the Son is a different issue that is rarely discussed.
We worship the "God Who Saves" - Yehoshua in the Hebrew, the Name He gave to the Son - the Name above every name. In English the Name of Jesus.

That does not make us equal to God - that would be blasphemous.

It is the "as we are one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowing. I would suppose that He now is.

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It is the "as we are one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowing. I would suppose that He now is.

Yes...

But our learning of His Glory never ends.

 

[gpresdo]

It is the "as we are one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowing. I would suppose that He now is.

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

What many do not understand is that

It is the "as we are one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowingsuppose that He now is.. I would

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

It is the "as we are. one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowing. I would suppose that He now is.

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

It is the "as we are one" that alters my understanding. Too often that is used to mean something that I think was never intended.
While on Earth, Jesus was n suppose that He now is not all-knowing. I would

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

While on Earth, Jesus was not all-knowing. I would suppose that He now is.

I would not rush to that conclusion since we know from scripture that Christ does not know the date of His 2nd advent....God does.
One must conclude ...while God and Christ are the same by name....but, when God manifests Himself He may alter the totality for that manifestation.
I believe that is a proper conclusion.

 

[JohnDB]

There was a theologian in 134 AD that proposed this concept of a harsh God of the Old Covenant but a kind God of the New Covenant.

Yeah....excommunicated unanomously by the early church....and they had some knock down drag out hammer and tongs discussions over theological matters.

But they all unanimously excommunicated the guy who proposed and promoted this concept.

Tread carefully.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I also know that when the prophecy of His return happens, Jesus surrenders all His authority back to the one who gave it to him.

This verse

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

needs to be understood in the context of...

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

 

[Spyder]

This verse

1 Co 15:25–28 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

needs to be understood in the context of...

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

Punctuation missing. When verses are in supposed conflict, address the translator's writing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Punctuation missing. When verses are in supposed conflict, address the translator's writing.

Sure...

Jesus reign is eternal - reign requires authority.

As the unity between the Father and the Son has never been broken, submission does not have the element of correction, rather mutual respect.

Jesus only ever had the authority that was Given and exercised it perfectly - this continues forever.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would not rush to that conclusion since we know from scripture that Christ does not know the date of His 2nd advent....God does.
One must conclude ...while God and Christ are the same by name....but, when God manifests Himself He may alter the totality for that manifestation.
I believe that is a proper conclusion.

The risen Jesus and the Father are one - and both are all knowing.

Jesus accepted a limited understanding when He took on humanity for our sake.

That period of time is well past.