Populist Viewpoint vs Verified Facts

[MatthewG]

Tyre had the port. And yes, they too were built out of stone. Ephasus was also a port city until the harbor filled with silt.

The people of that day used a combination of natural features that they enhanced with stone to create docks for the ships. Tyre's port though washed into the ocean. Over half of the city sank into the sea. But fragments of the stone used are still covering the shore. (There was a lot of it)

Archeology in a seizmically active area is difficult because much got damaged over the centuries.

Remember when they rebuilt the Temple, and had wood given to help build? What is that man’s name? Nehamiah? Wood could be shipped into the Nazareth, it’s probably cold during the winter… something to burn? And use to build fences for the sheep? Etc… I get your information @JohnDB, and seen it before. Just trying to stay on subject concerning wood making. Shipping is there, just like with Nehemiahs.

 

[JohnDB]

John, I read in a book called "Sabertooth Man" - a person said "If Jesus was real, then why isn't there a table still around standing."

Human beings are unreliable, to some extent, no doubt.

Vetting resources for authors, biases, and accuracy is necessary these days.
Because with hype and propaganda people will buy anything.
Not to be politically persuasive but the Harris campaign currently has yet to publish a platform. Her polling numbers are just slightly below Trump. Her numbers are based completely on hype and propaganda and nothing else. No stated facts whatsoever.
The same thing happens in Christiandom moreso than we want to admit.
I just happen to be the sort that demands facts. And tekton in Latin is not any specific tradesman at all. Just "general construction laborer". At least that how it's used in every single other Latin document....

Latin/koine greek is an idiomatic language. Hebrew is a metaphoric language more verb focused. If Jesus was a worker of wood it would say that and not general construction laborer.

Erasmus and Tyndale translated the scriptures. Erasmus did most of the New Testament. It wasn't like he had much to work with when translating either. English still was not so standardized until the advent of the printing press a few years later. And Erasmus had several languages between his ears....not just English and Latin but German as well. Easy to get confused with so many vocabulary words running about. Today we have much better translation sciences. Not that Erasmus shouldn't be heralded or Martin Luther, who created the methodology for translating scriptures. These men pioneered the way. But that doesn't mean they got everything perfect either.

 

[MatthewG]

Vetting resources for authors, biases, and accuracy is necessary these days.
Because with hype and propaganda people will buy anything.
Not to be politically persuasive but the Harris campaign currently has yet to publish a platform. Her polling numbers are just slightly below Trump. Her numbers are based completely on hype and propaganda and nothing else. No stated facts whatsoever.
The same thing happens in Christiandom moreso than we want to admit.
I just happen to be the sort that demands facts. And tekton in Latin is not any specific tradesman at all. Just "general construction laborer". At least that how it's used in every single other Latin document....

Latin/koine greek is an idiomatic language. Hebrew is a metaphoric language more verb focused. If Jesus was a worker of wood it would say that and not general construction laborer.

Erasmus and Tyndale translated the scriptures. Erasmus did most of the New Testament. It wasn't like he had much to work with when translating either. English still was not so standardized until the advent of the printing press a few years later. And Erasmus had several languages between his ears....not just English and Latin but German as well. Easy to get confused with so many vocabulary words running about. Today we have much better translation sciences. Not that Erasmus shouldn't be heralded or Martin Luther, who created the methodology for translating scriptures. These men pioneered the way. But that doesn't mean they got everything perfect either.

Thanks for conversation. I’ve done been down this road many times, and while you may find it all intriguing, I don’t really thinks it explains, wood being shipped, and Jesus possibly working on it. Sometime you have to fill information yourself and assume, sometimes you can’t and just have to say, I can’t explain it and move forward. Many people get caught on little stuff and never move on to the bigger stuff that need to be looked at… heck some of them old boys back in the day killed people who disagreed with them… supposed John Calvin a lawyer, did so, witch trials, all of these reformations… when the real reformation is the reformation renewed mind in Christ…


I like the Bible. King James is fine, I can read it fairly well out loud to myself, in the end, you still have to choose faith over fact, but the reality of Yahavahs existences is believed in the heart just as much as the resurrection of Yeshu, is believed in on the heart…

More facts you need “proof” the more either your faith becomes lesser… in Yahavah whom sent Yeshua? Whom was a supposed carpenter and a student of the Old Testament.

 

[JohnDB]

Remember when they rebuilt the Temple, and had wood given to help build? What is that man’s name? Nehamiah? Wood could be shipped into the Nazareth, it’s probably cold during the winter… something to burn? And use to build fences for the sheep? Etc… I get your information @JohnDB, and seen it before. Just trying to stay on subject concerning wood making. Shipping is there, just like with Nehemiahs.

You are talking about cedar beams. Cedar beams were used to create roofs. They did not have sawmills. Metal products were exorbitantly expensive. They were not going to ship in wood from far off places just to build. They would use the vast amounts of available stone to build with just as has been the case with every place around the world. The archeology also corroborates the stone construction of literally every city in the area. However, in England very little was constructed out of stone except by the extremely wealthy. (Kings, Lords, and the Church)

 

[JohnDB]

And this discussion proves that people will literally do whatever mental gymnastics necessary to prove popular opinion over verifiable facts. Nevermind the written records, nevermind the rocks, nevermind the city's ruins, and nevermind the truth....they will stick with an error regardless of anything due to propaganda.

Meaning we are doomed. The end is coming and there's no stopping it. It's going to be so painful for everyone too. Kanye West is in the middle of a painful object lesson by God but he can't see the truth either. Otherwise he would repent and be healed. His physical body is in obvious decay from the stresses alone. His whole world and life is literally collapsing around him. But will he repent? He is currently doubling down on his stance. Enduring the pain and devastation as if it's a badge of courage and honor. No different from @MatthewG . Painful for everyone to watch.

 

[MatthewG]

And this discussion proves that people will literally do whatever mental gymnastics necessary to prove popular opinion over verifiable facts. Nevermind the written records, nevermind the rocks, nevermind the city's ruins, and nevermind the truth....they will stick with an error regardless of anything due to propaganda.

Meaning we are doomed. The end is coming and there's no stopping it. It's going to be so painful for everyone too. Kanye West is in the middle of a painful object lesson by God but he can't see the truth either. Otherwise he would repent and be healed. His physical body is in obvious decay from the stresses alone. His whole world and life is literally collapsing around him. But will he repent? He is currently doubling down on his stance. Enduring the pain and devastation as if it's a badge of courage and honor. No different from @MatthewG . Painful for everyone to watch.

Sir, it takes faith to even believe the first 3 lines in the bible. Yahavah or God or the LORD, may or may not exist, but my belief and faith is that he indeed does. I can't prove it as a fact, there are evidences but that is it. I have decided to place you on ignore and will no longer be participating in your threads.

 

[JohnDB]

Sir, it takes faith to even believe the first 3 lines in the bible. Yahavah or God or the LORD, may or may not exist, but my belief and faith is that he indeed does. I can't prove it as a fact, there are evidences but that is it. I have decided to place you on ignore and will no longer be participating in your threads.

And you are still missing the point.

We are so doomed.
Ears to hear and eyes that see are in Short ssupply. Always have been...but we would think it's different today. And unfortunately it is...and not in a good direction.

Cancel Culture is chosen over admitting the possibility of being mistaken over even a minor point. Even if the error is not your fault and made honestly. It happens to everyone including me. Nothing to be ashamed of and most certainly not license to double down.

 

[MatthewG]

And you are still missing the point.

We are so doomed.
Ears to hear and eyes that see are in Short ssupply. Always have been...but we would think it's different today. And unfortunately it is...and not in a good direction.

Nor do I believe I am missing any point. I do not believe anyone is doomed... Doomed by what? 600 years of already playing church? Lol! What do you want out of this world? It's already been reconciled with Yahavah, if you wanna teach, just do that make some youtube videos... in the end It's God who helps people by the spirit working in and through you, all glory to Him. Right?

You are just talking to some guy on a mountaintop of Alabama. And at least people are not being murdered for being "Christians" @JohnDB. Let's go back in the past, when the persecution of Christians started ramping up during the 60ish ads.

Let's go back to that world right John? That is a place where we can be truly doomed (Praise Yahavah for the bride of Christ.) Life is much better today.

 

[Taken]

Thinking caps are going to be required for this discussion.

What popular opinions are different from verified facts?

Let's give an example:

Many people have an opinion that Jesus was a carpenter. However archeology and history both prove that a construction worker in the places that Jesus's family lived worked in clay and stone. Basically masonry work.

But the belief of Jesus being a carpenter by trade has given rise to all sorts of meme bumper stickers and ideology.

Once upon a time people believed that the Earth was flat. That people could sail ships or fly off the edge. Today.... other than a few people creating an argument for aguing's sake doomed for failure the notion is ridiculous.

Ulcers are caused by high stress.
When finally examined closely it was discovered that ulcers were the result of a bacterial infection. Not stressful situations. And a new antibiotic was produced to remedy the infection.

Now where this comes into play....which set of fact is more important?

Considering the Hebrew word “tekton”….simply meaning a LABORER …
Broadly applied to any individual who did usual work with with hands and tools …. To construct, build, accomplish a task….with a wide range of materials…ex. Wood, stone, straw, mud, etc.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Regarding the point of AI…

All “sciences” regardless of how modernly categorized by specific Fields….
Were from the beginning INTENDED (by God) FOR manKIND to Discover …
AND….
Use for GOOD purposes
AND
Teach others how to use for GOOD purposes.

Not a big secret….Umpteen ancient, historical and modern Discoveries have been, will be USED to Deceive, trick and fool those who fail to discover CLAIMS that apply to Discoveries.

A recent…issue…the latest Covid VIrus…
“VACCINES”….Before Jumping on board and rushing to be first in line to get the freebie Jab….Did YA not find it peculiar … before releasing the freebie Jab….”THEY” redefined the term VACCINE?

Yep agree…JohnDB…due diligence is required before jumping blindly on board to agree or partake in “new” discoveries.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible doesn't lie.

You already posted this to me and I've already replied.
I'm not here to harm your beliefs.
If you think the bible is 100% correct, then so be it.

But let's say that one day you found out that there was some incorrect information in the NT that YOU found to be correct.
Would that have any effect on your faith in God?

For instance, was there a census when Mary was ecxpecting Jesus?
Are we sure?

What if there was none?
What if John gave one date for something and Matthew gave a different date for something?
Would this effect your faith in God?

IOW, are you worshipping the bible,
or are you worshipping God?

 

[JohnDB]

Regarding the point of AI…

All “sciences” regardless of how modernly categorized by specific Fields….
Were from the beginning INTENDED (by God) FOR manKIND to Discover …
AND….
Use for GOOD purposes
AND
Teach others how to use for GOOD purposes.

Not a big secret….Umpteen ancient, historical and modern Discoveries have been, will be USED to Deceive, trick and fool those who fail to discover CLAIMS that apply to Discoveries.

A recent…issue…the latest Covid VIrus…
“VACCINES”….Before Jumping on board and rushing to be first in line to get the freebie Jab….Did YA not find it peculiar … before releasing the freebie Jab….”THEY” redefined the term VACCINE?

Yep agree…JohnDB…due diligence is required before jumping blindly on board to agree or partake in “new” discoveries.

Glory to God,
Taken

Quite honestly this has played out over and over again.

The whole Tagumim/Hebrew vs Septuagint debate got Stephen Killed.

Separated Paul and Barnabus over who was "right". Barnabas went home and missed out. Uggghhhh. So close yet missed the opportunity.

Jerome vs Augustine in "received text" vs reliable Hebrew manuscripts to retranslate anew into Latin .

Then the church was so angry they dug up Tyndale's bones to burn them....they never stopped the English translation. Even declared that Luther was a Heretic and would have killed him if not for the war.

It's the same as has always been. Except now it's the whole freaking world and on a scale never seen before.

I think it's mentioned in prophesy too.

Chaos is coming. And the right answers will be available....just completely dismissed in favor of the lie.

 

[GodsGrace]

Regarding the point of AI…

All “sciences” regardless of how modernly categorized by specific Fields….
Were from the beginning INTENDED (by God) FOR manKIND to Discover …
AND….
Use for GOOD purposes
AND
Teach others how to use for GOOD purposes.

Not a big secret….Umpteen ancient, historical and modern Discoveries have been, will be USED to Deceive, trick and fool those who fail to discover CLAIMS that apply to Discoveries.

A recent…issue…the latest Covid VIrus…
“VACCINES”….Before Jumping on board and rushing to be first in line to get the freebie Jab….Did YA not find it peculiar … before releasing the freebie Jab….”THEY” redefined the term VACCINE?

Yep agree…JohnDB…due diligence is required before jumping blindly on board to agree or partake in “new” discoveries.

Glory to God,
Taken

Agreed on "vaccine" which wasn't a vaccine.

Re AI

Seems like many brains bigger than ours see the danger and are warning against it.
But what are we doing?
Going full speed to hit right against it.
It might cause mankind's end as we know it?
Well, we'll just figure that out when we get there I guess.
We already have someone, a biggie, can't remember who right now,
stating that we'll need a General Income or some sort of thing.
And of course we'll need it, since...
Most will be losing their job, and there won't be any new ones for which we could train.

Going full speed to hit right against it....

 

[GodsGrace]

Quite honestly this has played out over and over again.

The whole Tagumim/Hebrew vs Septuagint debate got Stephen Killed.

Separated Paul and Barnabus over who was "right". Barnabas went home and missed out. Uggghhhh. So close yet missed the opportunity.

Jerome vs Augustine in "received text" vs reliable Hebrew manuscripts to retranslate anew into Latin .

Then the church was so angry they dug up Tyndale's bones to burn them....they never stopped the English translation. Even declared that Luther was a Heretic and would have killed him if not for the war.

It's the same as has always been. Except now it's the whole freaking world and on a scale never seen before.

I think it's mentioned in prophesy too.

Chaos is coming. And the right answers will be available....just completely dismissed in favor of the lie.

Some of Augustine's beliefs were based on an incorrect translation by Jerome, if I remember correctly. I think I do.
Something in Romans about the sin nature --- it sounded like we were born sinners, not STAINED by sin.
I think it was in Romans 5....
But, yes, to everything you stated.
Not 30 minutes ago I was speaking to a friend of mine that stated exactly what you did:....
this time it's world-wide on a scale never seen before.
We were discussing Pompeii just before Vesuvius exploded and the Greeks, etc.
She's Catholic -- yes, they're expecting the end soon too.

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed on "vaccine" which wasn't a vaccine.

Re AI

Seems like many brains bigger than ours see the danger and are warning against it.
But what are we doing?
Going full speed to hit right against it.
It might cause mankind's end as we know it?
Well, we'll just figure that out when we get there I guess.
We already have someone, a biggie, can't remember who right now,
stating that we'll need a General Income or some sort of thing.
And of course we'll need it, since...
Most will be losing their job, and there won't be any new ones for which we could train.

Going full speed to hit right against it....

And when viewed in a particular way....
We can see that God himself has stopped us from destroying ourselves all this time. He purposefully has caused delay after delay to stop us from destroying ourselves.

The ONLY hope we have is that God will cause yet another delay and He is not weary of mankind's stupidity and stubborn shenanigans.
We live in hope eh?

 

[JohnDB]

Some of Augustine's beliefs were based on an incorrect translation by Jerome, if I remember correctly. I think I do.

Hopefully I'm correct....we haven't sent the book off to the publishers yet. And I recently have restudied this just to write this out not a week ago. It's at the editor's desk now.

The thing I read was that Jerome wanted to completely retranslate the Old Testament into a new Latin version and wanted to use the targumim and Hebrew translations available to translate into Latin from. Augustine wanted Jerome to use the existing Septuagint translation despite its inconsistencies with the New Testament as he believed these to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and due to popular use. He really didn't believe in copyist errors. Paper and ink were still very expensive...too expensive to allow for errors despite the differences in the Septuagint in the various regions.

Not all of this is in the book I'm writing but I researched this for completeness and this is the results of that research. Now I know that you have read about them more than I have...and have more resources than I on this subject. If you have something that differs from this please do not refrain from telling me about it.
The passage in Romans is not really in question or subject matter for me at the moment. It could be....but you would know more completely than me about that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sometimes, we even have to just fill in the information ourselves with what we may think maybe with use of other scriptures, (hopefully by the spirit of Yahavah.) or just leave it as it is because we do not know. Thank you for that reminder GG.

You're very welcome MatthewG.

I think it's important to trust the bible but realize that there might be some information in it not 100% correct.
It's not a science book and the biography part of it in the NT is certainly correct in the recounting of who Jesus is and the How and Why He came to us - God in person - ....
We could certainly trust this --- all the writers agree.

In the small details, we have to allow some leeway because different writers concentrated on different reasons for their writing and something or other might be a little different but nothing of importance and certainly nothing that should have any effect on our faith in God.

Filling in the information ourselves though might not be such a good idea.
In these cases, I'd prefer to just leave the question alone rather than to make a mistake.
If we use other scripture, as you've state, then I could agree.
In fact, this method is used in hermeneutics and exegesis.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hopefully I'm correct....we haven't sent the book off to the publishers yet. And I recently have restudied this just to write this out not a week ago. It's at the editor's desk now.

The thing I read was that Jerome wanted to completely retranslate the Old Testament into a new Latin version and wanted to use the targumim and Hebrew translations available to translate into Latin from. Augustine wanted Jerome to use the existing Septuagint translation despite its inconsistencies with the New Testament as he believed these to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and due to popular use. He really didn't believe in copyist errors. Paper and ink were still very expensive...too expensive to allow for errors despite the differences in the Septuagint in the various regions.

Not all of this is in the book I'm writing but I researched this for completeness and this is the results of that research. Now I know that you have read about them more than I have...and have more resources than I on this subject. If you have something that differs from this please do not refrain from telling me about it.
The passage in Romans is not really in question or subject matter for me at the moment. It could be....but you would know more completely than me about that.

Gosh John.
Don't give me more credit than I deserve!
You're writing a book about the translation?
Or about Augustine?
I think Augustine messed up early Christianity really good.
Reformed beliefs are credited to him.

What you state about the translation is very nuanced and I won't be able to comment at all.
I trust what you learned and wrote.

I just know that Jerome did not do a really good job of translating...
And Augustine didn't know Hebrew or Greek....and depended on Jerome's translation.

I'd say that even to this day, Romans 5 is not easily understood.
Have to leave for a while - when I come back I have to look up the exact verse...it might be 12...
through one man death came and so all men died.....

 

[Taken]

Agreed on "vaccine" which wasn't a vaccine.

Re AI

Seems like many brains bigger than ours see the danger and are warning against it.
But what are we doing?
Going full speed to hit right against it.
It might cause mankind's end as we know it?
Well, we'll just figure that out when we get there I guess.
We already have someone, a biggie, can't remember who right now,
stating that we'll need a General Income or some sort of thing.
And of course we'll need it, since...
Most will be losing their job, and there won't be any new ones for which we could train.

Going full speed to hit right against it....

It has pretty much gotten to the Point…
“IF” a gov agency or rep HAS promoted PAST…immoral, ungodly, failures….AND they continue to PROMOTE…anything…I have ZERO INTEREST in wasting my time with more of their CRAP…to agree, jump on board or consider…

 

[MatthewG]

@JohnDB i decided to unignore you. I have a Thompson chain Bible.





I have an archaeological supplement…

Like your remarks on tyre,

here is also information concerning Nazareth.





Since I’m not a political Christian nor believe that is something God desires… you’re right concerning the ability to make effort and do one’s own research…

But I doubt we are doomed… is this information accurate or trusting? I trust it to an extent…