The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

AGAIN….here’s what you call “DRIVEL” plainly IN Scripture..

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Need a cloth for your drool?

Not so!

I will ignore your insults.

We all agree this is the catching away. Where is your 7-years trib or any trib here? That is what Pretribbers claim.

 

[WPM]

I see that you attempt to back up your view with scripture, but sometimes, your view is incorrect. My point is that you resist correction through ridicule. Your call for proof is disingenuous.

Let's not forget, I too have substantiated my interpretation with scripture.

No. You have not. It is hard to get you to present, exegete and explain a text. Please start.

 

[WPM]

We are doing two things here: explaining 1) what the Bible means and 2) why a particular interpretation is incorrect. In either case, it is helpful to the reader to explain complicated ideas using everyday examples.

There is nothing complicated about Christ's return. You make it that. Jesus comes and that is it. It is the end. men are either caught up or caught on.

 

[WPM]

That sounds suspiciously like you believe in pretrib rapture then. We know that at least some go to heaven, right? So if what you say is true then we should be hoping to see Jesus now, pre trib.

WIll you clarify your position because if this is your thread then this is contradictory to the OP.

No it is not. Everyone that is not caught up is destroyed. It is the end!

 

[MA2444]

No it is not. Everyone that is not caught up is destroyed. It is the end!

But the Rapture is before the end. You have the rapture being the very very last thing? That would make the rapture unnecessary. That does not compute.

 

[rwb]

I’m sure you dont know what I’m asking…. I don’t even know what I was asking lol. That was probably autocorrect on my phone.

If I remember correctly, I was saying the gospel was preached to Abraham before Israel existed.

That being the case, do you think the gospel was preached to the world pre-Israel and then it was put on pause when Israel came about.

Hopefully that makes sense.

I think I understand what you're asking. Why would you think there is or was ever a time when the Jewish nation called Israel would be without the ability to cry out to God through Christ for salvation? They were the nation for whom God chose to reveal Himself to mankind. And it was to the nation of Israel that Christ too would come. The Jewish nation have never been without God in the world, and His grace through His Son. The Covenant promise was first given to them, and it was through the Jews that Christ was born. To them first was the message (Gospel) preached.

But when Christ finally did come, the Gospel of grace was no longer only to the Jew as it once had been. We're told the wall that separated the Jew and Gentile is done away in Christ. That happened when the vail of the temple was torn from top to bottom, signifying the way into the holiest of holies was then opened for people of all the nations of the world, who would be saved by grace through faith when they hear the Gospel of Christ and believe He is the Savior of man.

There will never be another time in the future when the Gospel of salvation will again be only for the Jews (ethnic Israel) since there is no other way beside Christ that all men must be saved. The time to be saved is NOW, even for Jews since the first coming of Christ. And the way to Him is NOW available to whosoever among all mankind call upon His name in faith (believing). There are no promises that were made through Abraham for the nation of Israel that have not already been fulfilled.

If ethnic Jews, called Israel of the flesh desire to have everlasting life through Christ, they, like all people must call upon Him NOW before the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. Because once the final trumpet sounds the time for man to be saved will be no longer. All who are still alive at that time will either be caught up to meet the Lord in the air or they will be left upon this earth to suffer the wrath of God that shall come upon all the earth when fire comes down from God out of heaven.

If you would like to have proof from the Bible for all that I have said here, we can break it down into smaller bits and I will try to answer through the Word of God any questions you might have, if you are not familiar enough with finding the answers in the Scriptures yourself.

 

[rwb]

That sounds suspiciously like you believe in pretrib rapture then. We know that at least some go to heaven, right? So if what you say is true then we should be hoping to see Jesus now, pre trib.

WIll you clarify your position because if this is your thread then this is contradictory to the OP.

Tribulation, including "great tribulation" is the Christians lot in life for being faithful to Christ. On the other hand, the wrath of God is the fire that shall come down upon the whole earth after this age of Gospel grace is finished. There won't be any true Christians left on this earth to experience the wrath of God after the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer, and Christ has come again. Once the last trumpet sounds every saint of Christ, both those who have died and those who are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That leaves this earth inhabited only by unbelievers who shall be utterly/totally/completely consumed by the fire of God's wrath, and no living creature shall be left alive, none of them shall escape the wrath of God that shall come.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But the Rapture is before the end. You have the rapture being the very very last thing? That would make the rapture unnecessary. That does not compute.

Which is why Noah and Lot frustrate them.
They actually need both to be gathered post Flood or judgement.

Postrib rapture DEPENDS on omission and refraining the Bible.
Omit....reframe.... name call...repeat.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tribulation, including "great tribulation" is the Christians lot in life for being faithful to Christ. On the other hand, the wrath of God is the fire that shall come down upon the whole earth after this age of Gospel grace is finished. There won't be any true Christians left on this earth to experience the wrath of God after the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer, and Christ has come again. Once the last trumpet sounds every saint of Christ, both those who have died and those who are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That leaves this earth inhabited only by unbelievers shall be utterly/totally/completely consumed by the fire of God's wrath, and no living creature shall be left alive, none of them shall escape the wrath of God that shall come.

There are two great battles in the end times. One on the white horses, when Jesus returns post tribulation, and another one at the end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed and gathers all the rebellious people in the millennium. But it's not clear if every man woman and child on the planet is killed that is not part of God's Kingdom. But none of those battles is the rapture unless you want to change the Bible setting of all the Rapture verses because they're completely backwards from what post tribulationists believe

 

[rwb]

But the Rapture is before the end. You have the rapture being the very very last thing? That would make the rapture unnecessary. That does not compute.

Yes, the rapture is when the final trumpet sounds! If faithful saints shall not be raptured (caught up to meet the Lord in the air), then we too would suffer the wrath of God by fire that shall consume this earth, and every living thing left on it. Being eternally saved through Christ is the only way mankind can escape the wrath of God by the all-consuming fire from heaven.

 

[WPM]

But the Rapture is before the end. You have the rapture being the very very last thing? That would make the rapture unnecessary. That does not compute.

Please explain.

 

[WPM]

Which is why Noah and Lot frustrate them.
They actually need both to be gathered post Flood or judgement.

Postrib rapture DEPENDS on omission and refraining the Bible.
Omit....reframe.... name call...repeat.

No. Both negate Pretrib. They show that the very day that all of God's people were rescued was the very day that total and utter destruction hit all of the wicked.

 

[IndianaRob]

The pre, mid, nor post trib positions can ever be reconciled because there is no such thing as the “rapture” and is proven in this verse.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is describing an event that HE was going to take part in. To say otherwise is a private interpretation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tribulation, including "great tribulation" is the Christians lot in life for being faithful to Christ. On the other hand, the wrath of God is the fire that shall come down upon the whole earth after this age of Gospel grace is finished. There won't be any true Christians left on this earth to experience the wrath of God after the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer, and Christ has come again. Once the last trumpet sounds every saint of Christ, both those who have died and those who are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That leaves this earth inhabited only by unbelievers who shall be utterly/totally/completely consumed by the fire of God's wrath, and no living creature shall be left alive, none of them shall escape the wrath of God that shall come.

You do not understand the purpose of the great tribulation.
It is Jacob's trouble. ( Israel's trouble)
Romans 9, 10, and 11 describe The salvation of Israel.
Regrafted back in.
Rev 14 is the gathering of them mid trib.

No matter what you think you know, Rev 14 has 2 gatherings of The Jewish harvest. A separate Jewish harvest MID TRIB...BEFORE the wrath part of the gt.

Rev 14 is the Bible nuke.
Only a pretrib rapture fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. Both negate Pretrib. They show that the very day that all of God's people were rescued was the very day that total and utter destruction hit all of the wicked.

Ahem...show me Lot rescued post Sodom firestorm.
Which is what you are saying.
BOTH GATHERED BEFORE ANY JUDGEMENT.
You are not aware that a postrib model has both rescued post judgement?????
You really can not see the normal life setting of the pretrib rapture verses????

The Bible clearly has 2 gatherings in mat 25.
Vivid and clear.
Then another gathering if Jews midtrib in Rev 14.
The "one coming" doctrine is easily debunked

 

[rebuilder 454]

The pre, mid, nor post trib positions can ever be reconciled because there is no such thing as the “rapture” and is proven in this verse.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is describing an event that HE was going to take part in. To say otherwise is a private interpretation.

Paul is talking about the gathering of the bride.
You got it completely wrong.

 

[IndianaRob]

Paul is talking about the gathering of the bride.
You got it completely wrong.

Paul is talking about the translation from this world to the next world (heaven). This is something that every single believer including Paul will experience.

That’s why we are to comfort one another with those words.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. You have not. It is hard to get you to present, exegete and explain a text. Please start.

I have given you proof about two years ago. You ignored it. Do you remember? I posted 595 messages in the thread entitled "22 Major Reasons to Abandon the Premil Doctrine," defending my position. Why not drop the school-yard repartee and do some good here?

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is nothing complicated about Christ's return. You make it that. Jesus comes and that is it. It is the end. men are either caught up or caught on.

You oversimplify the run-up to his return and leave out too much information. You read everything through your Amil colored glasses and you don't allow others, including the Bible, to correct your mistakes. 1948 destroyed the Amil position.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But the Rapture is before the end. You have the rapture being the very very last thing? That would make the rapture unnecessary. That does not compute.

Yes, this is a problem for his view.