The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

"Everyone who lacks understanding of the Bible will say this."

So to be clear, I'm not saying this of you or anyone. Just to say, these sorts of statements are generic and generalized and mean nothing to me.


I've not found their doctrines. Yes, some are more inclined to read into the text something that's not there. I endeavor to avoid that, and stick to the text.

Are you beginning to see me according to stereotypes? That's what it seems like.

I think maybe we've reached a stopping point in our discussion. It's coming down to sharing personal opinions of others instead of focusing on the word, and our various understandings.

One other thing . . . I don't consider myself "protestant" with whatever baggage goes along with it. FWIW.

Much love!

Surely, the most significant doctrine of Protestantism, is sola scriptura which I believe you hold to. It was after all, one of the main reason for the split from the Roman Catholics, as they were adding to scripture in regard to indulgences and other practices.

We have diverted from the intention of this thread, to be on Theosis which I am sure you have said that you agree with me is the most important thing to discuss.

I have come to see that I should not get involved with the previous disputes over OSAS, the end times, and others, as my role is in bringing Theosis to the attention of the western church which has been lost just about, apart from in academia where it will take about 20 years to get to pastor level and we probably don't have that amount of time left by all accounts.

So I will start a new thread called Theosis part 2, as the Lord has graciously supplied me with a most helpful book (not the one I mentioned, it is too scholarly to plough through at the moment when I have so much on with my physical and psychological healing). I did wonder whether a believer should consult with unsaved therapists, but decided the answer is yes when it is a matter of neurological damage for which they have an answer. The church has the better answer which is love shown to the trauma damaged, but as love has grown cold in the churches I have attended, one must seek outside help as one would if one broke an arm.

More later. Please do not take part in the new thread to all, unless you are interested in finding a deeper reality of your faith and interested in other understandings of it than are found in the west generally.

 

[Hepzibah]

I think this discussion has made the rounds. You seem to have me pidgeonholed now as something you imagine me to be, and I'm not interested in pushing back on that. I'm not here to convince you about something about me.

I was not saying the last bit to you Mark. I did say all. I know that you are as interested as I am over deepening relationship with Christ. You seem to want to misinterpret me over everything I say now especially over accepting anything that is not in the Bible which I have explained I do not.

I appreciate the time and energy you've given me! I truly hope you will find what you are seeking, and I truly believe we can apprehend this in faith. And if not, that God will grant this to you!

At the end of the day, the guy that says I believe the Bible, and the one that says, I believe the Bible, and others, we won't be in a full agreement, UNLESS the others say things that agree with the Bible. So we're back to the Bible. And I'm not going to accept sayings from others that are disputed in the Scriptures. I just don't.

There you go again. Spiritual matters are not as simple and straight-forward as you seem to say. Putting them into words is a huge task. But as you wish. Perhaps there will be others who will be interested. Thank you too.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks I have just seen your edit.

No I am not saying that. We have received everything we need, at the cross and all we need is to appropriate it. This is the reason why I said that understanding spiritual things is not easy to explain or understand.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think this discussion has made the rounds. You seem to have me pidgeonholed now as something you imagine me to be, and I'm not interested in pushing back on that. I'm not here to convince you about something about me.

I appreciate the time and energy you've given me! I truly hope you will find what you are seeking, and I truly believe we can apprehend this in faith. And if not, that God will grant this to you!

At the end of the day, the guy that says I believe the Bible, and the one that says, I believe the Bible, and others, we won't be in a full agreement, UNLESS the others say things that agree with the Bible. So we're back to the Bible. And I'm not going to accept sayings from others that are disputed in the Scriptures. I just don't.

And consider one last point, I've said it before, but please, just think about this . . . If we are to go on to maturity . . . to perfection . . . and we cannot . . . for lack of Theosis . . . then what?

But if we are given all we need, and we need to be trained, to learn how to use it, then we can in fact go on to maturity, to perfection.

The Bible says we can, but Theosis says we cannot. Think about it.

Much love!

I'm so leery of extra-biblical terms and labels. It would be better if we could stick to what the bible says and words it uses and in the same manner as it uses them, and that way it is at least more likely to have agreement, as well as not veer off track. We are blessed to have bibles in print in the modern age and don't need to rely on second hand renderings which may or may not be hitting the mark by adding or taking away.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth agreed but many terms need some explanation.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4.

We all know this verse but what does it mean exactly to partake of the divine nature?

Participation is defined as ‘the fact or condition of sharing with others.’ But the Greek form methexis is a philosophical term it also means whatever has no being in its own right, whatever is not self caused. Cyril of Alexandria calls it, human nature transformed in Christ.

The Apostle Paul puts it:

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6).

Man has sought this transcendence since time immemorial, leaving out the death bit which Christ introduced, to solve his problems. It was behind ancient Greek philosophy, the philosophers having had access to the Hebrew writings according to William Smith, L.L.D. (Smith's Bible Dictionary, London: J. Murray, 1863).

Theosis, is Christian mysticism, but not mysticism as it is generally (mis)understood. It is neither Monism, or the turning of the world itself into a divine principle, nor Dualistic, which turns the creation entirely separate from God, an objective thing. Theosis makes man divine at the same time as preserving his humanity expressed personally and therefore characterized by love. It is not contemplation, that is far too passive a state. Our relation to God must be an active response to the divine summons, not a passive contemplation of the divine (Berdyaev 1874-1948).

It is already available to us through ecstasy, a going out of the self, transcending ourselves through responding to God’s erotic call to participate in the divine life. Erotic in this context does not refer to sexuality, except insofar as it is a metaphor drawn from human experience. It refers to our potentiality for total communion with God and the intensity of the yearning for it.

It signifies a transcendence of the limitations of individual self-containedness, a new mode of existence to which we are called. Under the impulse of love, to which God responds by going out of His self in ecstasy to meet the lover. (Norman Russell Fellow Workers with God, Orthodox Thinking on Theosis).

However not all will be willing to turn away from the life they are living to make the sacrifice required (death with Christ) and the leaving behind of everything in God’s hands. If we think that all Christians have reached the zenith of the Christian life though they will admit a few struggles with sin, and that their sanctification will continue in this life, we only need to look at aged believers who have followed the Lord for 50, 60 or even 70 years and put them to the test on how they take care of their temples of the Holy Spirit. On this basic requirement do they eat the same diet that the unsaved ‘health freaks’ eat to prolong their lives or do they bring sugar laden baked goods to pot luck?

I think we can all agree that they have not appropriated what Christ gained for us. Then why is the church failing to produce the quality of saints we find in the past particularly in the patristic period? Do we even care?

 

[marks]

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4.

We all know this verse but what does it mean exactly to partake of the divine nature?

Participation is defined as ‘the fact or condition of sharing with others.’ But the Greek form methexis is a philosophical term it also means whatever has no being in its own right, whatever is not self caused. Cyril of Alexandria calls it, human nature transformed in Christ.

I'm not sure where you are seeing methexis, the Greek word being translated participants, or partakers, is koinonoi.

Through His promises you may be becoming communioners of the divine nature, having fled from the corruption in the world system. I understand this to mean, a sharing in a oneness provided by the commonality of what is being written of.

Paul, for instance, speaks of the koinonia of serving. I'm pretty certain that the most of us here on this forum would be getting along just great, in a real unity, if we were all together running a soup kitchen for skid row.

"that we may be partakers of the divine nature", this would be to share in the same nature that God has.

Ephesians 4 speaks of us putting on the new man, which is created "after God", that is, "patterned after" God, created in righteousness and true holiness.

To me that seems a good starting point to understanding God's nature, that He is righteous, and truly holy, and we can share in that, as He has given us promises, that allow us to do so.

Much love!

 

[marks]

However not all will be willing to turn away from the life they are living to make the sacrifice required (death with Christ) and the leaving behind of everything in God’s hands.

I see three groups routinely addressed in the Bible, the believing saints, the unbelievers, and those who are including themselves in the church though they be not true believers.

The unbelievers of course don't figure into this question. The believing saints will exhibit varies degrees of maturity, including the very mature, show show themselves in their countenance and their works, and the immature who argue and compromise.

If we think that all Christians have reached the zenith of the Christian life

I wouldn't say that of any Christian alive, based on the Scriptures which speak of ongoing conflict, and ongoing working in us.

though they will admit a few struggles with sin, and that their sanctification will continue in this life, we only need to look at aged believers who have followed the Lord for 50, 60 or even 70 years and put them to the test on how they take care of their temples of the Holy Spirit. On this basic requirement do they eat the same diet that the unsaved ‘health freaks’ eat to prolong their lives or do they bring sugar laden baked goods to pot luck?

Physical age of course doesn't translation spiritual maturity. And not everyone in church is born again, a true believing saint. Someone who has identified as Christian for many decades may or may not actually be a true believing saint.

Solomon wrote that the good things we have are gifts from God, and we should enjoy them. Is it wrong to eat fried chicken at the church pot luck? I wouldn't eat it every day, in fact, that was the only time I'd eat it. I sure did enjoy it! The rest of us pretty much were the same way. Special things we don't eat all the time. A special recipe to share with others. Yes, we could all have tofu and alfalfa sprout sandwiches, I used to live on those! But then soy's not so great for you either.

I just happen to see a full range of maturity levels, for whatever reasons, and then there is myself, as mixed a bag as I can imagine! The good days can be really really good, but the bad days can be really really bad! God help me!!

And there it is, the plea to my Father for deliverance!

This week isn't as good as last week, I think I'm in my cycle. I don't remember if I've mentioned this, I tend to have a week or so, maybe a week and a half sometimes, good days, followed by about 3-4 weeks bad days, then the week or so of good days, and on it goes. It's been on an upward trend, but still follows that cycle. A most curious thing to me!

I think we can all agree that they have not appropriated what Christ gained for us. Then why is the church failing to produce the quality of saints we find in the past particularly in the patristic period? Do we even care?

I care! And I don't necessarily agree that there aren't any such saints. My last church, where my wife and I were briefly, the pastor preached the same message most every week, "things look scary, but God is good, and you'll be OK". Midweek calendar was all online. No contact, no fellowship. No through the Bible teaching, unless you wanted to join them online. We don't even have home internet.

Our church before that, before the pastor died and the building was razed and the people mostly scattered, was a different story. As is our church now. There is much good teaching, and example, and admonition, filled with light and love.

I happen to think a big part of why many don't seem to mature in Christ is because of discouragement, thinking they have to do this on their own, because they know they've sinned, so God must be mad at them, has turned His back on them, and they have to get better to make it right, and they know they can't do this alone. So dejection sets in, and they stop trying, and try to find that peace with God they once felt. That's the biggest faith killer of all!

That they might lose salvation for their lack of self control! So try harder! Harder still! "oh I only hope He still loves me, still saves me, even after this!"

To think that I might lose what I've gained in Christ, and that the only way I can avoid losing this, and that I can truly gain eternal life, is to wait, and hope, that God will finally fix this for me!

It's a silly thing to think of a grown man crawling around on the floor, pleading with God to give him the ability to walk, while God is meanwhile saying, Stand up, man! But then, well, that's what I feel like.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I happen to think a big part of why many don't seem to mature in Christ is because of discouragement, thinking they have to do this on their own, because they know they've sinned, so God must be mad at them, has turned His back on them, and they have to get better to make it right, and they know they can't do this alone. So dejection sets in, and they stop trying, and try to find that peace with God they once felt. That's the biggest faith killer of all!

That they might lose salvation for their lack of self control! So try harder! Harder still! "oh I only hope He still loves me, still saves me, even after this!"

You've got this exactly right. The burdens of financial strain, the struggle to make ends meet, the isolation without fellowship, and living without the luxuries of TV, radio, or even a car- in a house with very little—these trials are real. But remember, 'My God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus' (Philippians 4:19). Though the circumstances are tough, 'The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit' (Psalm 34:18). And 'we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day' (2 Corinthians 4:16).

 

[marks]

You've got this exactly right. The burdens of financial strain, the struggle to make ends meet, the isolation without fellowship, and living without the luxuries of TV, radio, or even a car- in a house with very little—these trials are real. But remember, 'My God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus' (Philippians 4:19). Though the circumstances are tough, 'The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit' (Psalm 34:18). And 'we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day' (2 Corinthians 4:16).

Or one of my favorites,

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Or one of my favorites,

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Much love!

Some more--

Psalm 34:6 (Lexham Bible):

"This poor man cried, and Yahweh heard, and saved him out of all his troubles."

Psalm 72:12-14 (Lexham Bible):

"For he will deliver the needy who cries for help, and the afflicted who has no helper. He will take pity on the helpless and needy, and the lives of the needy he will save. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their lives, and their blood will be precious in his eyes."

Psalm 140:12 (Lexham Bible):

"I know that Yahweh will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the needy."

Proverbs 19:17 (Lexham Bible):

"He who lends to Yahweh is he who is kind to the poor, and his benefits he will repay to him."

Proverbs 22:22-23 (Lexham Bible):

"Do not rob the poor because he is poor, and do not crush the afflicted at the gate; for Yahweh will plead their case and despoil those who despoil them of life."

Isaiah 25:4 (Lexham Bible):

"For you have been a refuge to the poor, a refuge to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the rainstorm, a shade from the heat, when the breath of the ruthless was like a rainstorm against a wall."

Isaiah 41:17 (Lexham Bible):

"When the poor and the needy seek water and there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst, I Yahweh will answer them; I the God of Israel will not forsake them."

Luke 6:20-21 (Lexham Bible):

"And he lifted up his eyes to his disciples and said, 'Blessed are the poor, because yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are those who are hungry now, because you will be satisfied. Blessed are those who weep now, because you will laugh.'"

Shalom.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

View attachment 49489

I'm not sure where you are seeing methexis, the Greek word being translated participants, or partakers, is koinonoi.

I got it from Norman Russell who says it is a philosophical term used in both a weak sense and a strong sense in Orthodoxy.

Through His promises you may be becoming communioners of the divine nature, having fled from the corruption in the world system. I understand this to mean, a sharing in a oneness provided by the commonality of what is being written of.

Yes but what exactly does it mean in practical terms. Also 'becoming' rather than 'be' will no doubt be disputed by theologians. Scripture says to put off and put on like a coat, which is not a gradual thing. To flee from corruption also needs interpreting.

Paul, for instance, speaks of the koinonia of serving. I'm pretty certain that the most of us here on this forum would be getting along just great, in a real unity, if we were all together running a soup kitchen for skid row.

True.

"that we may be partakers of the divine nature", this would be to share in the same nature that God has.

OK you answered it more this time. So God is holy and does not sin. And we are commanded to be as He is, not aim to be as He is. God's ways are perfect so I just don't see Him as leaving a job half done, if it was already done on the cross and all we have to do is believe it is so. Otherwise it is by our own strength and will power. This is really good news!

Ephesians 4 speaks of us putting on the new man, which is created "after God", that is, "patterned after" God, created in righteousness and true holiness.

To me that seems a good starting point to understanding God's nature, that He is righteous, and truly holy, and we can share in that, as He has given us promises, that allow us to do so.

Amen!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I see three groups routinely addressed in the Bible, the believing saints, the unbelievers, and those who are including themselves in the church though they be not true believers.

I also see carnal believers as opposed to the spiritual. Do you not agree?

The unbelievers of course don't figure into this question. The believing saints will exhibit varies degrees of maturity, including the very mature, show show themselves in their countenance and their works, and the immature who argue and compromise.

The carnal?

I wouldn't say that of any Christian alive, based on the Scriptures which speak of ongoing conflict, and ongoing working in us.

Physical age of course doesn't translation spiritual maturity. And not everyone in church is born again, a true believing saint. Someone who has identified as Christian for many decades may or may not actually be a true believing saint.

Well this is true and I would not expect all elderly church members to display the fruit of the Spirit for this reason. But when there isn't ONE, which has been my observation, then I have to take stock. And if there is ONE, then that one can be showing the way for others by example, especially the young ones. What I have seen is that the members of the churches I have been in, act no differently than the world, that is, apart from Reformed churches where pious behaviour is expected more. Perhaps there is a cultural element.

Solomon wrote that the good things we have are gifts from God, and we should enjoy them. Is it wrong to eat fried chicken at the church pot luck? I wouldn't eat it every day, in fact, that was the only time I'd eat it. I sure did enjoy it! The rest of us pretty much were the same way. Special things we don't eat all the time. A special recipe to share with others. Yes, we could all have tofu and alfalfa sprout sandwiches, I used to live on those! But then soy's not so great for you either.

I am talking especially about the huge amount of sugary cakes there when you can make things like that with sweeteners like date syrup. Many are addicted to sugar so it seems to me to be highly insensitive to others to tempt them. Just one thing the Holy Spirit would guide believers in if they were thinking of others. You would not take alcohol would you.

Most foods people eat are highly processed and full of pesticides which are not gifts from God.

I just happen to see a full range of maturity levels, for whatever reasons, and then there is myself, as mixed a bag as I can imagine! The good days can be really really good, but the bad days can be really really bad! God help me!!

And there it is, the plea to my Father for deliverance!

Amen.

This week isn't as good as last week, I think I'm in my cycle. I don't remember if I've mentioned this, I tend to have a week or so, maybe a week and a half sometimes, good days, followed by about 3-4 weeks bad days, then the week or so of good days, and on it goes. It's been on an upward trend, but still follows that cycle. A most curious thing to me!

I think it is common before one is able to re-regulate through training.

I care! And I don't necessarily agree that there aren't any such saints. My last church, where my wife and I were briefly, the pastor preached the same message most every week, "things look scary, but God is good, and you'll be OK". Midweek calendar was all online. No contact, no fellowship. No through the Bible teaching, unless you wanted to join them online. We don't even have home internet.

Yeah I went to a church like that recently.

Our church before that, before the pastor died and the building was razed and the people mostly scattered, was a different story. As is our church now. There is much good teaching, and example, and admonition, filled with light and love.

Great!

I happen to think a big part of why many don't seem to mature in Christ is because of discouragement, thinking they have to do this on their own, because they know they've sinned, so God must be mad at them, has turned His back on them, and they have to get better to make it right, and they know they can't do this alone. So dejection sets in, and they stop trying, and try to find that peace with God they once felt. That's the biggest faith killer of all!

I think it is a good thing when the Holy Spirit convicts! They are not taught however that this is a stage on the journey and they need to admit their sins to others and ask for help. A church full of babes cannot help though.

That they might lose salvation for their lack of self control! So try harder! Harder still! "oh I only hope He still loves me, still saves me, even after this!"

Oh yes! This was the thing that drove me to the floor and despite the error of it, it led me to assistance from God. All of the great men of God came to that before they were delivered from sin.

To think that I might lose what I've gained in Christ, and that the only way I can avoid losing this, and that I can truly gain eternal life, is to wait, and hope, that God will finally fix this for me!

It's a silly thing to think of a grown man crawling around on the floor, pleading with God to give him the ability to walk, while God is meanwhile saying, Stand up, man! But then, well, that's what I feel like.

I agree and hope I did not give the impression that passivity is okay. There are things we can do, like asking God where we are wrong, writing an inventory and obedience to every small voice within, while praying for deliverance is needed.

The first thing though is the realization that we have been walking in the flesh, and that is why we failed, even if we had good intentions and tried to obey Him. The flesh must be dead in His sight and that includes all that is not Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4.

We all know this verse but what does it mean exactly to partake of the divine nature?

Participation is defined as ‘the fact or condition of sharing with others.’ But the Greek form methexis is a philosophical term it also means whatever has no being in its own right, whatever is not self caused. Cyril of Alexandria calls it, human nature transformed in Christ.

The Apostle Paul puts it:

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6).

2Pe 1:10

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power HATH GIVEN UNTO US ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that BY THESE ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is BLIND, AND CANNOT SEE afar off, and hath FORGOTTEN that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE; for if ye DO these things, ye shall never fall:

What I glean from this whole passage is that we have already been given everything at least by promise. (Imputed) And this was through the knowledge of God by the faith that we received when the Lord was revealed to us through the gospel. And now we are called to ADD good fruit and works to our faith, that like a newborn had been born naked of any fruits and works yet. And that the adding of good works and fruit to our faith is a matter of SEEING (not being blind to) what we have been given and what we have been saved from. This is the vein/manner/tone that the scriptures speak in overall as far as I can tell. We have already received but now we are to grow and increase (add to our faith) so that we manifest what we have received.

And Romans 6 speaks in that same vein….that we have already been baptized into the death of our Lord but now we need to reckon our old man to be dead. To SEE that truth in order to be able to put on, ie, WALK IN IT, the newness of life of the new man. How I am seeing this is that the teachings of scripture are calling forth as it were the new man in us. Like Lazarus having been called forth out of the grave by Jesus and now needs to do the hard work of removing those old grave clothes that belonged to the old man in order to reveal/manifest new man who was raised. It is “deep calling unto deep”.

(I accidentally posted what I initially wrote out but decided not to attempt to address for now....you might have received it in your inbox before I could delete it. I only want to look at the scriptures you mentioned .)

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth Yes it's in the reckoning.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth It is when we have been illumined as to the extent of the evil in the old man that we will consent to his/her crucifixion. Death then life.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth Yes it's in the reckoning.

Amen.....and that is by faith.

Where does the baptism of the Holy Spirit come into this....as that is an act of God much like how we came to faith in the first place?

 

[Hepzibah]

Amen.....and that is by faith.

Where does the baptism of the Holy Spirit come into this....as that is an act of God much like how we came to faith in the first place?

I see it as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit saves us from sin. The disciples followed Jesus before that.

 

[Lizbeth]

I see it as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit saves us from sin. The disciples followed Jesus before that.

John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. I wonder if they are two separate baptisms. The first baptism of the Holy Spirit belongs to our coming out of Egypt (crossing Red Sea) and then a baptism of fire (depicted in crossing the Jordan at flood stage all the way back to "Adam" (old man nature of Adam) which burns up the sacrifice of what we have slain and laid on the altar...? Our trials and tribs and chastisements are a baptism of fire in itself which leads up to it being finished/completed when we lay our old man/flesh with all his sins and foibles, the whole package as a whole, on the altar and the Holy Spirit accepts the sacrifice by burning it up....? (WHOLE burnt offering as opposed to just smaller bits and pieces of our heart and life that we have thus far been willing and choosing to offer.) Think that word "whole" is significant...written for that reason.

 

[Hepzibah]

John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. I wonder if they are two separate baptisms. The first baptism of the Holy Spirit belongs to our coming out of Egypt (crossing Red Sea) and then a baptism of fire (depicted in crossing the Jordan at flood stage all the way back to "Adam" (old man nature of Adam) which burns up the sacrifice of what we have slain and laid on the altar...? Our trials and tribs and chastisements are a baptism of fire in itself which leads up to it being finished/completed when we lay our old man/flesh with all his sins and foibles, the whole package as a whole, on the altar and the Holy Spirit accepts the sacrifice by burning it up....? (WHOLE burnt offering as opposed to just smaller bits and pieces of our heart and life that we have thus far been willing and choosing to offer.) Think that word "whole" is significant...written for that reason.

The Bible says there is one baptism:

Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

As you say, as we lay our flesh on the altar, it is burned up and we are cleansed by the fire. When we first come to Christ, we really have no idea about the flesh and the journey we have just begun. It takes many trials for us to understand. Agree, the whole is significant. Prior to that we were offering bits and pieces, but then it has to be the whole of it.

Two river/sea crossings yes.

 

[Johann]

The Bible says there is one baptism:

Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

As you say, as we lay our flesh on the altar, it is burned up and we are cleansed by the fire. When we first come to Christ, we really have no idea about the flesh and the journey we have just begun. It takes many trials for us to understand. Agree, the whole is significant. Prior to that we were offering bits and pieces, but then it has to be the whole of it.

Two river/sea crossings yes.

Sometimes you post things that make my heart leap with excitement, while at other times I find myself confused. Like the Bereans, I’ve looked up the word "theosis," and it is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

However, the concept of participating in the divine nature is discussed in Scripture, particularly in 2 Peter 1:4: "That by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature." This passage suggests that through the fulfillment of promises, believers are intended to become partakers of the divine nature.

That by these ye might be partakers of the Divine nature; literally, that through these (promises, i.e., through their fulfillment) ye may become partakers. It is true that the verb is aorist (γένησθε), but it does not follow that, might be" is the right translation, or that the writer regarded the participation as having already taken place the children of light"). As Alford says, the aorist seems to imply "that the aim was not the procedure, but the completion, of that indicated; not the γίνεσθαι, the carrying on the process, but the γενέσθαι, its accomplishment." The end of God’s gift is the complete accomplishment of his gracious purpose, but it is only by continual growth that the Christian attains at length to that accomplishment. St. Peter’s words seem very bold; but they do not go beyond many other statements of Holy Scripture. At the beginning God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." St. Paul tells us that believers are now "changed into the same image from glory to glory" (2Co_3:18; comp. also 1Co_11:7; Eph_4:24; Col_3:10; Rom_8:29; 1Co_15:49, etc.). Christians, born of God (Joh_1:13; 1Pe_1:23), are made "partakers of Christ" (Heb_3:14), "partakers of the Holy Ghost" (Heb_6:4). Christ prayed for us that we might be "made perfect in one" with himself who is one with God the Father, through the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost the Comforter (Joh_17:20-23; Joh_14:16, Joh_14:17, Joh_14:23). The second person is used to imply that the promises made to all Christians (unto us) belong to those whom St. Peter now addresses.

Other references--
2 Peter 1:4:

2 Peter 1:4 (NKJV): "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
This verse supports the idea that believers are intended to become partakers of the divine nature through God's promises.
Aorist Verb Usage:

The use of the aorist verb (γένησθε) in 2 Peter 1:4 indeed implies the idea of becoming or coming into a state. This supports the notion of an intended goal rather than an immediate or completed state. The aorist tense emphasizes the finality of the goal rather than the process.
Creation in God's Image:

Genesis 1:26 (NKJV): "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...'"
This verse indicates the original intention for humanity to reflect God's image.
Transformation in Christ:

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NKJV): "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."
This reflects the ongoing process of transformation into Christ’s image.
Other Scripture References:

1 Corinthians 11:7, Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10, Romans 8:29, and 1 Corinthians 15:49 all speak to the theme of believers being conformed to the image of Christ or reflecting God’s attributes.
Partakers of Christ and the Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 3:14 (NKJV): "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."
Hebrews 6:4 (NKJV): "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit..."
Christ’s Prayer for Unity:

John 17:20-23 (NKJV): Jesus prays for believers to be one with Him and the Father.
John 14:16-17 (NKJV): Jesus promises the Holy Spirit, who will dwell with and in believers.

ISBE (Revised) entry under "Deity" - DEITY [Gk. tó theíon] (Acts 17:29+); AV GODHEAD; [theiótēs] (Ro. 1:20+); AV GODHEAD; [theótēs] (Col. 2:9+); AV, NEB GODHEAD. These three closely related Greek terms are descriptive of the basic nature of God. They seem to vary but slightly in connotation.

A. Tó Theíon. Tó theíon (theios) “the divine thing,” is derived from the adjective theíos, meaning “pertaining to God,” “divine” (2 Pet. 1:3f+). It signifies “God” in an impersonal sense. In Acts 17:29+, in Paul’s speech to Greek intellectuals on Mars Hill, the term tó theíon draws attention to the qualitative aspect of God. Paul demonstrates the Greeks’ shallow conception of God, seeking to heighten their receptivity to the revealed truth of the gospel of Christ. The term tó theíon was common in their discussions, being used to designate the deity apart from any reference to a particular god. Paul focuses attention upon that quality of “the divine” which distinguishes God from all else. English terms based on the word “divine,” however, are used too commonly and are therefore inadequate to set forth the connotation of tó theíon (see II. A, B below). The idea is more adequately represented by “the Deity,” so that an appropriate translation of Acts 17:29 might be: “It is inconceivable that ‘the Deity’ can be appropriately represented by the artistic talents of men working with mere earthly elements.”

B. Theiótēs The term theiotes is an abstract noun closely related to tó theíon, derived from the same adjective, theíos. It is commonly understood as a summary term for the attributes of deity. However, the term merely “defines” with regard to essence, signifying “the quality of the divine,” that character which makes God God, and sets Him apart as worthy of worship. The Greeks used the term of their deities. Later it was applied to men by the Roman imperial cult as a term for the divinity of imperial majesty. It is rarely used in later Jewish works and occurs in biblical literature only in Wisd. 18:9 and Ro 1:20+. The term is not as impersonal as tó theíon, but its abstractness does not lend a readily discernible distinction. Its meaning is approximated by “deity,” perhaps “divineness.”

In Ro. 1:20+ theiótēs is used of that nature of the Creator discernible to the mind by observation of the existing worlds. Verse 19 states, “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because he has shown it to them.” Verse 20 affirms that man’s mind is able to form a concept of the invisible nature of God by visual perception of the universe. The discernible features of His transcendent being (“his invisible nature”) are specifically His “eternal power” and “deity.” The universe displays the eternal power it took to bring the universe into existence; in addition it displays the divine character of the one who created it, i.e., His deity. Specific attributes are not in view in the term theiótēs, simply His quality of “Godness,” which depicts Him as worthy of worship. But men suppressed this truth in unrighteousness (v 18), and are without excuse, subject to the wrath of God revealed from heaven (v 20). They did not acknowledge “his deity” as it is discernible in the things He has created.

C. Theótēs - Theotes is a kindred term (to theiotes), but is distinctive in that it is derived from the word “God” (theós). On this basis it is the most personal of the three terms (to theion - Acts 17:29+, theiotes - Ro 1:20+, theotes - Col 2:9+), and is nearly a name. Whereas tó theíon marks “the quality of deity,” and theiótēs connotes “that which makes God God,” theótēs signifies “the being of God.” Theótēs apparently denotes the utmost idea of God. On heathen lips it could do no more than designate their highest concept of God, “The Supreme Being.” In Col. 2:9+ Paul uses theótēs in declaring that “the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily” in Christ. Although it conveys the idea of a “being,” the use of “Divine Being” here would impersonalize the total expression, “the whole fulness of the Divine Being.” The term “deity,” or even “the Deity,” is likewise impersonal; furthermore, the connotation “being” is lacking. A term that better preserves the personal and qualitative aspect of theótēs is “godhead” (see III below). The total expression “the whole fulness of the Godhead,” then, signifies the sum of all that enters into the conception of “Godhead,” God in nature, character, and being. All this dwells in Christ “bodily,” i.e., in such a manner as to be shown in a bodily organism. Cf. Jn. 14:9, where Philip’s request that Jesus show them the Father was met by the Lord’s response, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.”

2 Peter 1:3-4 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

Thanks
J.