The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

The facts have been presented and avoided countless times. Here are the last 2:

The last time you pulled this avoidance nonsense, I told you that I had responded to your post in past and you just copied and pasted something that had already been responded to.

You moaned and groaned and claimed avoidance till I had to go dig up the response which proved you were wrong.

AND YOU HAVE YET TO RESPOND TO MY POST.

And don't start crying about avoidance as I am getting to respond to the two posts that you have listed.

And after I use scripture that clearly proves are incorrect...........the process starts all over..........deny, deny, deny.

 

[IndianaRob]

John 5:24-25 is spiritual and John 5:28-29 is referring to a bodily resurrection.

Compare these passages which both speak of a current reality:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

John 5:24-25 is talking about going from being spiritually dead in sins to being saved and spiritually alive in Christ just as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:4-6.

So in your opinion does any of that relate to Jesus going to the heart of the earth and preaching to the dead?

 

[The Light]

You are making comparisons between Noah's day and the day that Jesus comes that Jesus Himself didn't make, in order to support Pretrib.

Firstly, God did not shut Noah and his family up in safety in the ark for 7 days as you argue. God gave Noah 7 days’ notice – allowing him to fill the ark with his family and the animals, saying, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" (Genesis 7:4).

Noah was shut in the ark, after the ark was loaded on the first day. We know the animals were loaded on the first day because they were loaded on the self same day.

Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Moses got 7 days notice before the rain came. In that time, he was directed to gather the animals into the ark two by two of all flesh, male and female (Genesis 6:19). He was also instructed to gather food for his family and the animals (Genesis 6:20). That gathering took one week. These 7 days would have given Noah and his family sufficient time to board all these animals unto the ark and gather sufficient food.

Moses? Noah.

The animal were not gathered in a week, as Noah was told to enter the ark on the 1st day. And we know Noah, his family and all the animals loaded in one day because the Word tells us they were all loaded on the self same day.

Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

When that was complete, God closed the door of the ark and the flood immediately came and destroyed all the wicked. Jesus confirms, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27).

Noah entered the ark on day one as God had commanded Him.

Genesis 7
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Whilst all the wicked were swept away in this flood when the ark closed, the rain continued pouring down for 40 days. What is more, the water remained on the earth 150 days in total until the ark rested on Ararat.

Great. Pull some truthful facts out scripture and pretend that this covers your error of the flood coming the day Noah entered the ark. Noah entered the ark on day one as commanded. He was shut in the ark on the 1st day.

They were eating and drinking UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK...................NOT THE DAY THE FLOOD CAME.

 

[IndianaRob]

Exodus 29:12 Take some of the bull’s blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar.

In OT times most of the blood of the animal sacrifice was put at the base of the altar. The souls John saw being under the altar symbolically represents that they shed their blood and sacrificed their lives for the cause of the word of God and their testimony.

Do you think God avenged their blood in 70AD or are those Old Testament saints still waiting under the alter?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I completely agree with you, they do exactly the same things to scripture that futurists do.

How long ago was the mil?

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't see that your view is much different than full preterism as you apparently do not believe in a future glorious appearing of Jesus Christ.


So, you're another lone wolf who has a doctrine all to yourself. There are several on this forum. You think God has revealed the truth only to you then. What makes you so special that God only reveals the truth of these things to you, of all people?

I just read and believe what I read. I trust God will correct me when I go off coarse.

 

[Keraz]

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Noah's flood example is proving this will be a global event and that the LOT example is proving there will be survivors remaining other than the saved? How else could we square it? Noah's flood equals no survivors other than those on the ark. Lot's day only equals no survivors in the city being destroyed, yet not all cities were destroyed at the time nor was everyone on the planet living in this same city that was destroyed.

Some common sense here.
I see that the AMillerites have jumped in with their usual jamming in of their false belief.

But the Prophesies in Revelation make it clear that there will be survivors among the wicked peoples, as they take the mark of the 'beast' and worship him. Revelation 13
Only after Armageddon, at the Seventh Bowl; will all the ungodly peoples be gone and the righteous faithful Christian peoples will inhabit the earth for the next thousand years.

I also want to castigate those who insist that the word 'generation', as used in Matthew 24:34, has to mean only 40 years maximum. That belief is impossible as every family starts a new generation in their own time.
Those alive when the fig tree-- Judah; is reinvigorated, refers to everyone alive now, all those born since May 1948 and those before that date as well, provided they have the health and strength; THEY, WE - will see it all.
Thinking that Jesus meant a family generation, makes no sense, it has to refer to all those who are alive to see the Jews establish their own nation and become prosperous and strong.

But the mistake the Israelis make, is to rely on their own strength, they have the Samson Option, which will prove to be worthless on the Day the Lord strikes the earth with His Fiery wrath, Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 7:1-14....Very soon, I shall vent My wrath upon you, dwellers in the holy Land.........

 

[IndianaRob]

How long ago was the mil?

I haven’t figured that one out yet. I have ideas but until I know beyond the shadow of a doubt all I can say is I don’t know.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So in your opinion does any of that relate to Jesus going to the heart of the earth and preaching to the dead?

No.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some common sense here.
I see that the AMillerites have jumped in with their usual jamming in of their false belief.

LOL. Here's Keraz to the rescue to set everyone striaght with his nonsense. How lucky are we.

But the Prophesies in Revelation make it clear that there will be survivors among the wicked peoples, as they take the mark of the 'beast' and worship him. Revelation 13
Only after Armageddon, at the Seventh Bowl; will all the ungodly peoples be gone and the righteous faithful Christian peoples will inhabit the earth for the next thousand years.

Do these "faithful Christian peoples" inherit the kingdom of God with mortal bodies in your view? Do you believe they are the sheep/righteous in Matthew 25:31-46?

I also want to castigate those who insist that the word 'generation', as used in Matthew 24:34, has to mean only 40 years maximum.

You called?

That belief is impossible as every family starts a new generation in their own time.

Yes, a chronological generation represents the time during which someone grows up and has their own kids which then starts a new generation. So, a generation in that sense is defined to be 30 to 40 years. And that is one of the definitions you will find in a dictionary. Wat you will not find in a dictionary is a definition of the word generation that describes it as the human life span.

Those alive when the fig tree-- Judah; is reinvigorated, refers to everyone alive now, all those born since May 1948 and those before that date as well, provided they have the health and strength; THEY, WE - will see it all.

This is pure nonsense. You are using a definition of the word generation that does not exist. Just look up the Greek word "genea" in any Bible dictionary or the word generation in any English dictionary. You will not find your definition of the word that you're using here anywhere in any dictionary. You need to make up a new definition of the word to make scripture say what you want it to say.

Thinking that Jesus meant a family generation, makes no sense, it has to refer to all those who are alive to see the Jews establish their own nation and become prosperous and strong.

Nonsense. In Matthew 23 Jesus referred to "this generation" in reference to "this wicked generation" that was responsible for even the death of Abel (Matthew 23:35) and all the OT prophets who were killed. That showed that Jesus used the word to refer to a certain type of people, which even included Cain. A type of people who were evil hypocrites who murdered people they didn't like and disagreed with.

 

[The Light]

Completely agree. And, how convenient of him to not compare what happened with Lot to what will happen when Christ comes as Jesus Himself did. Jesus very clearly indicated that "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". And then He said "even the thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" which implies that the same day that the church is taken off of the earth, Jesus will destroy all of His enemies. Which is exactly what Paul taught in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.

When Christ returns...........the second coming.........which occurs at the 6th seal............the Day of the Lord will begin.

Additionally, there is no mention of the Church being removed from the earth during the second coming. The Church is already in heaven. See Revealtion 5

It's truly unbelievable that pretribs would try to use Matthew 24:37-42 and Luke 17:26-27 to support pretrib when they clearly support post-trib

Nothing in these verses post trib. Please point out any post trib verses................crickets..............

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 21
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

and amil instead.

There is not a single verse in the book of Revelation that supports Amil. You can't even find the rapture.

Pretribs get the wrath of God that will come down on the day Christ returns mixed up with a 7 year period of tribulation.

I don't. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. But that truth poses Amil a problem because you have the pretend the 1st six seals don't happen.

Nowhere did Jesus teach anything about a time of tribulation occurring after His coming. Surely, the comparisons what happened with the flood and in Sodom where all unbelievers were destroyed cannot be compared to some time period of tribulation before Christ's return.

Wow. I'm in shock you understand this. What you don't understand is that the 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus at the end of the age.........BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Nice. You didn't highlight the word UNTIL
Until the day Noe entered the ark

Noah was told to enter the ark on day one.

Genesis 7
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Noah entered the ark the day one as commanded.

Genesis 7
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

You seem to have a major issue in the near future. Remember it is the path you have chosen with the other foolish virgins.
I see no fear of God in you and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Proverbs 9
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

What is with your condemning attitude? Judge not or you will be judged with the measure you are judging others (Matthew 7:1-2). The foolish virgins end up where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (lake of fire - Matt 13:42) because that is were scripture says those who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" like the foolish virgins (Matt 25:11) will end up.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So, you think that WPM will end up being cast "into a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", which is where people like the foolish virgins who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" will end up?

Okay. Great. He said that they were eating and drinking UNTIL the day Noah entered the ark. They entered the ark on day one, not day 7


You can't even figure out what the word "many" means.

It doesn't mean many but not all like you falsely believe. Unless you think not all people are called to salvation? Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Does that mean many but not all are called in your mind?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Christ returns...........the second coming.........which occurs at the 6th seal............the Day of the Lord will begin.

Additionally, there is no mention of the Church being removed from the earth during the second coming. The Church is already in heaven. See Revealtion 5

LOL. Your doctrine is so incredibly weak. There is no rapture described or implied in Revelation 5. That is complete nonsense.

Nothing in these verses post trib. Please point out any post trib verses................crickets..............

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 21
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

These verses have all unbelievers being killed when Christ returns. How does that support your view? You think those who are left survive into a time of tribulation. LOL. In no way, shape or form do these verses indicate such a thing. Just all unbelievers left out of the ark were killed in the flood and all unbelievers left in Sodom were killed, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". No unbelievers will survive His coming to live through an imaginary post "coming of the Son of man" tribulation period.

There is not a single verse in the book of Revelation that supports Amil. You can't even find the rapture.

All verses in the book support Amil. Do you have anything but nonsensical gibberish to share or not? Apparently not. The rapture is referenced in both Revelation 11:11-12 and Revelation 14:14-16.

Do you want to understand the timing of Revelation 20:6? Just look at Revelation 1:5-6.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Whose resurrection was the first resurrection? Christ (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). When does Jesus reign? He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6). John said He IS "the prince of the kings of the earth". When were believers first made priests of God and of Christ? Long ago already. John said Jesus "HATH MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father". Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). What makes it so that the second death has no power over someone? A bodily resurrection? No. Being "washed from our sins in his own blood" is how we avoid the wages of sin, which is the second death. So, Revelation 1:5-6 shows that Revelation 20:6 should be understood in the present tense. That supports Amil. And you foolishly claim that not one verse in the book supports Amil out of ignorance.

I don't. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. But that truth poses Amil a problem because you have the pretend the 1st six seals don't happen.

Total nonsense. All you are able to do is misrepresent Amil. You don't have a clue of what we believe. How can you argue against something of which you have no understanding? That isn't possible.

Wow. I'm in shock you understand this. What you don't understand is that the 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus at the end of the age.........BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

Who said I don't understand those things? Good grief, will you stop making a fool of yourself by constantly making assumptions? Get the facts before you say things of which you know nothing about. The difference in our views of the sixth seal, as I've told you several times now (hello, wake up!) is that I believe the wrath of the Lamb comes down right then and there (it says "the great day of His wrath has come!") and you think it doesn't come until a year later or lats for a whole year which is complete nonsense.

 

[Davidpt]

Only after Armageddon, at the Seventh Bowl; will all the ungodly peoples be gone and the righteous faithful Christian peoples will inhabit the earth for the next thousand years.

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here, since I'm thinking you are applying some of Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming as I am as well. So, does this mean the ones meant in Zechariah 14:16-19 are the righteous faithful Christian peoples as well? You take those verses to be meaning after Christ bodily returns, correct? We have to keep in mind that not everyone can be the righteous faithful Christian peoples during the millennium, if after the millennium satan deceives many of them and that God then devours them with fire out of heaven.

 

[WPM]

Yes the body we have now will die and we will die in our sins along with it if we haven’t accepted Christ.

If we accept Christ and our soul has been resurrected from death to eternal life then we get the heavenly body to experience heaven.

When?

The last time you pulled this avoidance nonsense, I told you that I had responded to your post in past and you just copied and pasted something that had already been responded to.

You moaned and groaned and claimed avoidance till I had to go dig up the response which proved you were wrong.

AND YOU HAVE YET TO RESPOND TO MY POST.

And don't start crying about avoidance as I am getting to respond to the two posts that you have listed.

And after I use scripture that clearly proves are incorrect...........the process starts all over..........deny, deny, deny.

More noise, more avoidance and more lies. Address the biblical evidence please.

 

[WPM]

I just read and believe what I read. I trust God will correct me when I go off coarse.

If you are a believer He will. If you're not He will not.

 

[WPM]

If your asking when we get our new bodies it’s when we leave this world.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Do you believe in the literal physical return of Christ on an actual day to raise and judge mankind?

 

[IndianaRob]

Do you believe in the literal physical return of Christ on an actual day to raise and judge mankind?

Yeah I do but it’s already happened. I’m not waiting for the kingdom to come, I’m not waiting for heavenly Jerusalem to descend from the clouds, I live in heavenly Jerusalem right now. I’m not waiting live in the 1000 year reign, I’m living it now.

I’m not like Jews in Christs day, I’m not looking for a physical kingdom.

 

[IndianaRob]

Here’s a good example of how God works in the bible.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If you as the reader are seeking evidence that God will establish an earthly government in this world you’ll read that verse as “but NOW is my kingdom not from hence”, proves your preconceived idea that there will be an earthly government established on this earth.

If you as the reader are seeking the truth then you will see that verse as “but NOW is my kingdom not from hence” means the “kingdom of God that cometh not with observation” because that kingdom could not come until Christ died.

I don’t know how someone reads the Bible for years and doesn’t realize that everything in the Bible is written to deceive those that aren’t seeking truth.

 

[The Light]

What is with your condemning attitude? Judge not or you will be judged with the measure you are judging others (Matthew 7:1-2). The foolish virgins end up where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (lake of fire - Matt 13:42) because that is were scripture says those who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" like the foolish virgins (Matt 25:11) will end up.

I'm not the one calling everyone a liar every time they disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

It doesn't mean many but not all like you falsely believe. Unless you think not all people are called to salvation? Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Does that mean many but not all are called in your mind?

Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.