Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

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Johann

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Not sure what you are on about with the last question???

If I asked you what is the cost of discipleship could you answer that?

F2F
The cost of discipleship is one of the most challenging teachings Jesus laid out for His followers. It’s not just about believing in Him; it’s about committing your entire life to Him, even when it’s tough. Jesus was clear that following Him would require sacrifices—big ones.

First, He talks about self-denial. Imagine Jesus saying, “If you want to follow me, you need to deny yourself, take up your cross every day, and follow me.” That’s from Luke 9:23. What He’s getting at is that we have to put aside our own desires and be ready to face whatever challenges come our way because of our faith. The “cross” here symbolizes those tough moments, maybe even suffering or rejection, but we carry it because we’re committed to Him.

Then there’s the idea of total commitment. In Luke 14, Jesus uses some pretty strong language, saying that our loyalty to Him has to be greater than our loyalty to anyone else—even family. He doesn’t mean we should literally hate our loved ones, but rather that our love for Him should be so strong that it makes other commitments look small by comparison. He even says that if we’re not willing to give up everything we own, we can’t be His disciples. It’s a call to hold everything loosely, knowing that our true security is in God, not in our possessions or relationships.

Following Jesus also means that sometimes we have to leave behind comfort and what’s familiar. In Matthew 8, when someone says they’ll follow Him wherever He goes, Jesus reminds them that He doesn’t even have a place to lay His head—He’s always on the move, and it’s not an easy journey. Another person wants to wait until they’ve fulfilled a family obligation before following Jesus, but Jesus says, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” It’s a way of saying, “Your priority has to be following Me, even if it means leaving behind what you thought was most important.”

And then there’s the reality of persecution. In John 15, Jesus doesn’t sugarcoat it—He says that if the world hated Him, it’s going to hate His followers too. Being a disciple can put you at odds with the world because you’re living by a different set of values. It’s not an easy path, and it can be lonely or even dangerous.

But here’s the thing—Jesus also promises that it’s worth it. In Matthew 19, He says that anyone who gives up things for His sake will receive a hundred times as much and inherit eternal life. The cost of discipleship is high, but the reward is infinitely greater.

So, in short, following Jesus means putting Him above everything else, being ready to face challenges and sacrifices, and sometimes standing against the tide of the world. It’s not an easy road, but it’s the one that leads to true life and an eternal relationship with God.
 
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Super Kal

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St. SteVen said:
Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

Sure.
Faith = Belief that manifests in a personal decision to follow God.
The Faith = A system of belief related to Christianity.

We are saved by grace through faith, not THE Faith.
I agree with you, that on, on the basis, we are saved by grace through faith, and not thee faith, as in a denominational faith, or the faith as it is described by A Roman Catholic or Presbyterian Church.

But I also agree with Johann, in the sense that "the faith" is that faith in Jesus Christ, faith that through His death, burial, and resurrection, we are saved from the wrath to come. I think it is important to specify what we mean by the faith, because someone could say oh "I have faith in Odin", or "I have faith in Thor", or "I have faith in Cthulu", or "I have faith in the spaghetti monster"...

without us defining what "the faith" is, those who do not believe would not understand what we are talking about, because, I'm sure other religions refer to themselves as "the faith"
 

GodsGrace

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Not sure what you are on about with the last question???

If I asked you what is the cost of discipleship could you answer that?

F2F
I asked you if you trust your Christian faith.
I hope I wrote the word CHRISTIAN.
Because your Christian faith teaches that a devil exists because Jesus taught that they exist.
I could post scripture if you really need it.

Cost of discipleship.
This ain't test time face.

If you want to answer good...
if not, that's good too.
 

GodsGrace

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The cost of discipleship is one of the most challenging teachings Jesus laid out for His followers. It’s not just about believing in Him; it’s about committing your entire life to Him, even when it’s tough. Jesus was clear that following Him would require sacrifices—big ones.

First, He talks about self-denial. Imagine Jesus saying, “If you want to follow me, you need to deny yourself, take up your cross every day, and follow me.” That’s from Luke 9:23. What He’s getting at is that we have to put aside our own desires and be ready to face whatever challenges come our way because of our faith. The “cross” here symbolizes those tough moments, maybe even suffering or rejection, but we carry it because we’re committed to Him.

Then there’s the idea of total commitment. In Luke 14, Jesus uses some pretty strong language, saying that our loyalty to Him has to be greater than our loyalty to anyone else—even family. He doesn’t mean we should literally hate our loved ones, but rather that our love for Him should be so strong that it makes other commitments look small by comparison. He even says that if we’re not willing to give up everything we own, we can’t be His disciples. It’s a call to hold everything loosely, knowing that our true security is in God, not in our possessions or relationships.

Following Jesus also means that sometimes we have to leave behind comfort and what’s familiar. In Matthew 8, when someone says they’ll follow Him wherever He goes, Jesus reminds them that He doesn’t even have a place to lay His head—He’s always on the move, and it’s not an easy journey. Another person wants to wait until they’ve fulfilled a family obligation before following Jesus, but Jesus says, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” It’s a way of saying, “Your priority has to be following Me, even if it means leaving behind what you thought was most important.”

And then there’s the reality of persecution. In John 15, Jesus doesn’t sugarcoat it—He says that if the world hated Him, it’s going to hate His followers too. Being a disciple can put you at odds with the world because you’re living by a different set of values. It’s not an easy path, and it can be lonely or even dangerous.

But here’s the thing—Jesus also promises that it’s worth it. In Matthew 19, He says that anyone who gives up things for His sake will receive a hundred times as much and inherit eternal life. The cost of discipleship is high, but the reward is infinitely greater.

So, in short, following Jesus means putting Him above everything else, being ready to face challenges and sacrifices, and sometimes standing against the tide of the world. It’s not an easy road, but it’s the one that leads to true life and an eternal relationship with God.
Luke 9:23 is a really great verse.
I like
Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Doesn't sound like much.
Surely our righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees - whom Jesus criticized.
So why should our righteousness surpass theirs?

Maybe because what Jesus wants from us is MORE than the Pharisees could give.
Maybe it's more than many could give.
Maybe He doesn't want us to follow some rules,,,,that would be pretty easy.
Jesus wants our heart...it has to be transformed and dedicated to Him.
You shall have no other god before me.
Unless you hate your father and mother. (not hate as we understand it today).
Yes, we must first count the cost before we decide to follow Him.
 
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face2face

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I asked you if you trust your Christian faith.
I hope I wrote the word CHRISTIAN.
Because your Christian faith teaches that a devil exists because Jesus taught that they exist.
I could post scripture if you really need it.

Cost of discipleship.
This ain't test time face.

If you want to answer good...
if not, that's good too.
Have a read of Luke 14:25 - 33 where you find the Master teaching you about the cost of discipleship and once you have those principles down you can then start to consider what is the cost of creation.

Cost, cost, cost! Always a cost!

For God there was a cost - what was it? And how does it answer your concerns about hurricanes?

Enjoy
 

GodsGrace

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You didnt deal with the issue.

If God is Holy and His Eternal Spirit is Holy how can there be an Eternal Evil being?

You know it's impossible but you don't know how to process all that that demands.

F2F
Guess you missed all my posts on this very thread about how we can't know why evil exists or how it began.
Basically that's my position.

There's no processing.
If Wm Lane Craig and John Lennox and a slew of other Christian philosophers/theologians can't figure it out,
I'm more than sure that we won't be able too.

Anyway, you don't know what I could process or cannot process.
Goodness but persons on this site get personal.
 

GodsGrace

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Have a read of Luke 14:25 - 33 where you find the Master teaching you about the cost of discipleship and once you have those principles down you can then start to consider what is the cost of creation.

Cost, cost, cost! Always a cost!

For God there was a cost - what was it? And how does it answer your concerns about hurricanes?

Enjoy
It doesn't.
 

face2face

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@GodsGrace

Whoever does not carry his own cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:27.

What is the cost?...for those that do AND for those that dont?

F2F
 

GodsGrace

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@GodsGrace

Whoever does not carry his own cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:27.

What is the cost?...for those that do AND for those that dont?

F2F
Spit it out face.
I don't have much time.
Not interested in the above.

I asked you what cost of creation means.

That or nothing at all.
 

face2face

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Spit it out face.
I don't have much time.
Not interested in the above.

I asked you what cost of creation means.

That or nothing at all.
You seem to have a lazy mind - just an observation...maybe you dont like to labour in the Word?
Enjoy your day!
F2F
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
I'm questioning what the key verse is referring to. It makes a difference.
What was it that was once for all entrusted to the saints?
- The message of salvation by belief in Jesus = the faith
- The practice of the Christian religion = The Faith
I agree that both are important. That's not the point here.
What we are discussing is what is referred to in Jude 1:3. The Faith, or [the] faith. ???

[
 

St. SteVen

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without us defining what "the faith" is, those who do not believe would not understand what we are talking about, because, I'm sure other religions refer to themselves as "the faith"
Good post, thanks.
This is the point. If Jude 1:3 is referring to The Faith, then it is just another religion among many.
I don't think THAT is what "was once for all entrusted to the saints." refers to.

[
 

Beebster

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Well, if you're right, then we DON'T KNOW GOD,,,,
That's, most likely, a safe bet.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 2:4)
because IF God created evil,
God created Satan and in scriptural fact creates evil.

By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. (Job 26:13)

Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: (Jdg 9:23)
then He is not properly represented in the bible
He most certainly is:

For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them. (Jer 32:42)

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:14)

God is the Father of all spirits:

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Heb 12:9)

We should be very fearful of such a God.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna). (Mat 10:28)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: FEAR HIM, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (gehenna); yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luk 12:5)
Could you imagine getting a new puppy that you say you love,

and you also claim to be a merciful person and a just person,
and you put your puppy in the shed behind your house,
which is full of mice and snakes and leaving him there.
Which is the equivalent of God creating evil.
Not even close.
God did not get a new person
(puppy) he CREATED that person.

He would not put us in a shed with mice and snakes....
No just a garden:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Gen 3:1)

And the great dragon was cast out, THAT OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:9)
GOD IS LOVE:

1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John 3:16

16“For God so loved the world,,,
Yes God is love.

Something most Christians will agree to. Of course when they start to preach about annihilation or hell fire, it becomes obvious that they really don't believe it.


And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mat 22:39) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 2:4)
GOD IS MERCIFUL

Lamentations 3:22
22The LORD’S loving kindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.

Titus 3:5

“He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy
Yes, after all Christ is the mercy seat.
But then there's that hell fire or annihilation that just gets in the way.

GOD IS JUST

Isaiah 30:18
“Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice;

Deuteronomy 32:4

4“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.
And yes God is just until he uses infinite punishment to deal with finite crimes.

Which infinite punishment does your FAITH teach? Which one does your loving, merciful, just god dole out?

The above DOES NOT sound like a God that would create evil so that it should befall His creation.
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it (meant that evil) unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. (Gen_50:20)

Evil has a purpose. Without it we wouldn't know what good is and you can't become the perfect man without the knowledge of both good and evil.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom (both good and evil); that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (Col_1:28)

Was this evil for good?

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Act 4:27-28)

Peace.
 
J

Johann

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St. SteVen said:
I'm questioning what the key verse is referring to. It makes a difference.
What was it that was once for all entrusted to the saints?
- The message of salvation by belief in Jesus = the faith
- The practice of the Christian religion = The Faith

I agree that both are important. That's not the point here.
What we are discussing is what is referred to in Jude 1:3. The Faith, or [the] faith. ???

[
"The faith once for all delivered unto the saints" (τη απαξ παραδοθειση τοις αγιοις πιστει) both the adverb, "once for all," and the aorist participle, "delivered," are worthy of special notice. "The faith" does not mean any set formula of articles of belief, nor the internal reception of Christian doctrine, but the Substance of it; it is equivalent to what St. Paul and the Evangelists call "the Gospel," viz., that body of truth which brings salvation to the soul that receives it. This Faith, or this Gospel, has been once for all delivered to Christians. No other will be given, for there is no other. Whatever may be delivered by any one in future cannot be a Gospel at all. The one true Gospel is complete and final, and admits of no successors and no supplements. (Gal_1:6-9).

the faith. FS121R2, +Act_6:7, The faith was complete and entire in Jude’s day; it is now contained in the written Scriptures of the NT, with no need for additional revelation or doctrinal development. Jud_1:20, Isa_26:2, +*Luk_18:8, Act_6:7; Act_13:8; +*Act_14:22; Act_24:24, Rom_1:5; Rom_1:12; Rom_10:8, Gal_1:23; Gal_3:23; Gal_3:25; Gal_6:10, Eph_4:5; Eph_4:13, Php_1:27, +*Col_1:23, 1Ti_3:9; +*1Ti_4:1 note. +*1Ti_6:10; 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:21, 2Ti_1:13; +*2Ti_3:8; 2Ti_4:7, +*Tit_1:9, Heb_13:9, 2Pe_1:1, Rev_2:13.
once. lit. once for all. Gr. hapax (S# G530, Heb_6:4). The body of doctrine embodied in the faith is not properly subject to any addition or modification: it was complete as delivered from the Apostles (Heb_1:2). Casaubon remarks, "Divine words, few in number, but rich in meaning. If rightly understood and duly obeyed, these words would put an end to all modern controversies, and restore peace to the Church. Do we desire to know what the true faith is? St. Jude here tells us—that which was once, and once for all delivered to the saints. Every doctrine which can be shown to be posterior to that faith is new; and every doctrine that is new is false" (cited in Lange). Jud_1:5, Heb_9:26-28, 1Pe_3:18.
 
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GodsGrace

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St. SteVen said:
I'm questioning what the key verse is referring to. It makes a difference.
What was it that was once for all entrusted to the saints?
- The message of salvation by belief in Jesus = the faith
- The practice of the Christian religion = The Faith

I agree that both are important. That's not the point here.
What we are discussing is what is referred to in Jude 1:3. The Faith, or [the] faith. ???

[
What was delivered to the Apostles is The faith.

It states this plainly.

HOW you now reconcile that with the simple teaching of the NT that we must BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH...
is now up to you - it seems that you're having a problem with this - but there is no problem present...

Could you notch this up one level?
We're going in circles here and, apparently, you're not going to get the answer you want.

So, let's say that The faith is the correct answer:
HOW does this affect your faith in God or your life in Christ?