The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rebuilder 454]

I challenged postribbers a year ago to provide a passage showing a postrib rapture of the church.
A year later...STILL NO VERSES.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ironically we do agree with them that there is a post-wrath coming of Jesus.
But it is so weird that they don't have any post Wrath Rapture verses.
Not a single one.
And I suppose it's their desperation, that says ,"show me a pre-trib Rapture in Revelation".
I can't even repeat their argument without laughing.
I've learned over the years that their entire deal is emotional.
They are upset at the notion of a pre-trib rapture.
Their entire Doctrine is emotionally based. It's not that they have convincing Doctrine of a post wrath rapture, the heart of their deal is simply hoping to disprove us.

*****************SO TRUE !*****************

 

[Douggg]

I began this conversation with you when you said 1thess 4 was not the second coming remember?
John 14 proves you wrong as Jesus leaves then comes back again to receive us to himself. Thats a second time. He receives us to himself in 1 Thess 4 ...same event.
He comes to raise the dead in Christ and glorify them as he does with those alive at the time. So he comes with the souls of those who have departed.
When he comes for us we will be like him, having a body like his glorious body.

Jeff, I am not disagreeing regarding the change, the transformation of the living in Christ from our current bodies into everlasting eternal bodies.

In John 14:3, Jesus did not call his coming again - as being a second time, nor being His Second Coming. And the place that Jesus talked about going in John 14:2 is heaven. And the Way for us to be taken to heaven where His Father is - is in John 14:6....

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


You are focusing on.... coming again = coming a second time = His Second Coming.

I am focusing on..... Jesus coming to take us to heaven - where the mansions are - prior to the great tribulation beginning.

 

[Douggg]

The whole passage (like elsewhere) is climactic. It is the end. No one survives.

If no one survives the day of the Lord when God's wrath is poured out - then would that not favor the rapture being before then?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Where is a 7 year trib in here?Why is the world saying peace and safety ?

Why is the world saying peace and safety at that time when sudden destruction hits them ?

 

[WPM]

Rev 19 has the church in heaven along with the marriage supper....AHEM... DURING THE TRIB
TL challenged you concerning Rev 19
You were UNABLE to respond.
Instead you respond with non applicable off topic generalities.( As you showed us in your quote above)
You just exposed what you are about.

Where does it say that Church is in heaven for the marriage supper? Please quote actual Scripture.

 

[WPM]

If no one survives the day of the Lord when God's wrath is poured out - then would that not favor the rapture being before then?



Why is the world saying peace and safety at that time when sudden destruction hits them ?

The catching away is before the pouring out of the wrath of God. But, the wrath of God is not the same as the tribulation executed by Satan upon the Church at the end. That is the wrath of Satan.

The world is happy with the persecution, subjugation and silencing of the Church at the end. They are at peace with that. They are at peace in their sin. They think that they are free to live in wanton rebellion against God. This is where they are caught unexpectedly and destructively.

The rapture brings sudden and total deliverance to all the redeemed. The wrath of God brings sudden and total destruction to all the wicked.

 

[WPM]

One single passage.?
I got several.
Here is one, matt24:
"38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

Before the flood/ trib, everyday life. Normal life.
Jesus comes at the start of the flood
One taken/ one left..at the start (AHEM JESUS'S setting is BEFORE the flood)
WATCH BEFORE THE FLOOD

ALL PRETRIB.
VIVIDLY PRETRIB.
Half the church taken pretrib.
Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that there is catching away or a rescue of the redeemed in Matt 24:38-42. We all agree with that. But where is a prolonged tribulation period followed by a third coming here? This is where we differ.

It is simply not in this text or any other text In Scripture.

 

[WPM]

*****************SO TRUE !*****************

Not true. Post-wrath passages relate to the NHNE. I can quote these if need-be.

 

[WPM]

I challenged postribbers a year ago to provide a passage showing a postrib rapture of the church.
A year later...STILL NO VERSES.

Not true. Start with the Op and move down and you will find countless.

It is pointless engaging with you if you're not going to tell the truth. Christians delight in keeping to the truth.

 

[Douggg]

The catching away is before the pouring out of the wrath of God.

In Revelation 16 is the pouring out of the 7 vials of God's wrath. So the day of the Lord will have begun, correct?

The rapture, therefore, is before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out. The rapture rationale is moving closer to the pre-trib timing.

But, the wrath of God is not the same as the tribulation executed by Satan upon the church at the end. That is the wrath of Satan.

Revelation 12:12-14 indicates that Satan's wrath "on the inhabiters of the earth and sea" lasts a time, times, half time. It does not say his wrath is against the church.

The world is happy with the persecution, subjugation and silencing of the Church at the end. They are at peace with that. They know I think that they are free to live in wanton rebellion against God.

The two witnessing will be testifying for 1260 days. Then Satan's wrath comes for a time, times, half time - coinciding with the 7 vials of God's wrath being poured out.

Added together is the 7 years of the pre-trib rapture view.

 

[WPM]

In Revelation 16 is the pouring out of the 7 vials of God's wrath. So the day of the Lord will have begun, correct?

The rapture, therefore, is before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out. The rapture rationale is moving closer to the pre-trib timing.


Revelation 12:12-14 indicates that Satan's wrath "on the inhabiters of the earth and sea" lasts a time, times, half time. It does not say his wrath is against the church.



The two witnessing will be testifying for 1260 days. Then Satan's wrath comes for a time, times, half time - coinciding with the 7 vials of God's wrath being poured out.

Added together is the 7 years of the pre-trib rapture view.

You are cobbling Revelation up here in order to make your your doctrine fit.

First, Revelation is not chronological. It is full of recapitulations. All these finish at the one final future coming of Christ.

Where is your rapture in this book?
Where is your third coming in this book?

 

[Douggg]

You are cobbling Revelation up here in order to make your your doctrine fit.

First, Revelation is not chronological. It is full of recapitulations. All these finished at the one final future coming of Christ.

Where is your rapture in this book?
Where is your third coming in this book?

You have not proved why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

If the rapture is not in the book of Revelation, then it must have happened before the events in Revelation, right ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have not proved why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

If the rapture is not in the book of Revelation, then it must have happened before the events in Revelation, right ?

Sorry, bud, Revelation is in NO WAY chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2, the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7, and Christ is born in Revelation 12.

 

[WPM]

You have not proved why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

If the rapture is not in the book of Revelation, then it must have happened before the events in Revelation, right ?

I never said the catching away was not in the book of Revelation. It is - several times. I am trying to find out where you see it.

 

[WPM]

You have not proved why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

If the rapture is not in the book of Revelation, then it must have happened before the events in Revelation, right ?

Where is your third coming in this book?

 

[Douggg]

I never said the catching away was not in the book of Revelation. It is - several times. I am trying to find out where you see it.

I see the rapture pre-figured when John heard a voice like a trumpet saying come up hither in Revelation 4:1-2

 

[WPM]

I see the rapture pre-figured when John heard a voice like a trumpet saying come up hither in Revelation 4:1-2

No. Where is the real Pretrib rapture? You cannot prefigure something that does not exist. Where is it?

 

[Douggg]

Where is your third coming in this book?

I am not getting side tracked with those sort of questions.

I am looking for proof from you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

 

[Douggg]

No. Where is the real rapture? You cannot prefigure something that does not exist. Where is it?

You said..."The catching away is in Revelation - several times" So you must believe that the rapture exists in Revelation someplace.

 

[WPM]

You said..."The catching away is in Revelation - several times" So you must believe that the rapture exists in Revelation someplace.

I will be happy to outline the Scriptures. But I asked you where your real Pretrib rapture was in Revelation? After all, to be prefigured there must obviously be a real Pretrib rapture to typify. Or, are you admitting that this is extra-biblical error, like many of us believe?