Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Windmill Charge

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2017
3,606
2,195
113
69
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Are you saved by faith, or by "the Faith"?

Faith is a gift from God Eph 2:it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

One may decide to put that faith in to a church, a pastor etc etc because of mistaken faith in those organisations and people, but so long as one has faith in Jesus one is saved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,899
7,170
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Are you saying that the Creator is a newbie, made Satan, created humans, placed them in the Garden of Eden, and that Eve's picking of the fruit from the forbidden tree wasn't part of God's plan? Did God make a mistake? Huh, are you serious?

God is far too wise to make mistakes. I am sure this is not a mistake. It is already part of His great plan for mankind. No matter what a creature think or do, they will not be able to escape the will of God.
That's a nice convenient way to escape responsibility for your sin. "God made me do it".
 
  • Haha
Reactions: St. SteVen

Beebster

Member
Jun 28, 2024
166
61
28
58
Apache Junction
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is far too wise to make mistakes. I am sure this is not a mistake. It is already part of His great plan for mankind. No matter what a creature think or do, they will not be able to escape the will of God.
Hello TPB.

Very few possess this wisdom. Most believe they have a free will that can thwart our very Creator's. But time after time, scripture proves otherwise.


KJV(i) 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa 46:10)
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,525
1,673
113
70
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Most believe they have a free will that can thwart our very Creator's. But time after time, scripture proves otherwise.
Yes. Man v. God

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. (28) A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. (29) How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

Beebster

Member
Jun 28, 2024
166
61
28
58
Apache Junction
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes. Man v. God

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. (28) A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. (29) How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Yep, we certainly have a will; it's just not free will. When we sin willfully, there is always a cause.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,942
5,692
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yep, we certainly have a will; it's just not free will. When we sin willfully, there is always a cause.
As a child I was taught that the world, the flesh, and the Devil cause us to sin.
Interesting discussion.

Like @Stumpmaster "I was taught that the world, the flesh, and the Devil cause us to sin."

@Beebster - What would cause us to sin against our will? (if that is what you are saying)

[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,942
5,692
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, what were the circumstances that caused Peter to sin and all the disciples for that matter, when they denied Christ?
I'm not sure that all the disciples denied Christ. (they did flee in fear - hard to blame them) And I'm not sure if Peter sinned when he denied Christ. Jesus predicted it, in the same way he predicted what Judas did. Both acts were important to the narrative. Are they really guilty? And if so, of what? This has bothered me for some time.

[
 

Beebster

Member
Jun 28, 2024
166
61
28
58
Apache Junction
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not sure that all the disciples denied Christ. (they did flee in fear - hard to blame them)
Yes, fear is the major driver which caused them change their will and to deny Christ.

Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet WILL I not deny thee. (Peter’s will)

Likewise also said all the disciples (the will of the rest). (Mat 26:35)

But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I WILL not deny thee in any wise. (Peter’s will)

Likewise also said they all (the will of the rest). (Mk 14:31)

Just because we have detailed descriptions of Peter denying Jesus and no one else, doesn’t mean they didn’t.

Just the fact that they agreed to this:


Though I should die with thee, yet WILL I not deny thee-

and then fled without dying with him, tells us they denied him.

And I'm not sure if Peter sinned when he denied Christ. Jesus predicted it, in the same way he predicted what Judas did. Both acts were important to the narrative.
So too was the disciples’ flight:

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and FLED. (Mat 26:56)

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zec 13:7)

Are they really guilty? And if so, of what? This has bothered me for some time.

[
Not only did they deny Christ but they broke an oath:

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (Ma5 5:33-37)

To say:

-If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all-

is not Yea, yea; Nay nay and is of evil. They swore right to Jesus Christ and broke that oath.

You seem to think that since it was predicted it is not a sin, or at the very least you’re not sure that it’s a sin. We could use several examples as to why it is still a sin even though it is foretold. Here is one:


The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE. (Acts 4:26-28)

That is a sin we are all guilty of.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. It can be rare around these parts.

Peace.
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,942
5,692
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You seem to think that since it was predicted it is not a sin, or at the very least you’re not sure that it’s a sin. We could use several examples as to why it is still a sin even though it is foretold.
I guess it begs the question: What is sin and what isn't?
Weren't you saying earlier that there is always a cause? (not willful)

Thank you for the thoughtful response. It can be rare around these parts.
Yes, I wish more interactions here were this way.

Build bridges, not walls.

[
 

ThePuffyBlob

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2019
1,265
498
83
in a secret chamber and needed help
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
Hello TPB.

Very few possess this wisdom. Most believe they have a free will that can thwart our very Creator's. But time after time, scripture proves otherwise.


KJV(i) 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa 46:10)
I sincerely think and feel that the Creator of all things, both unseen and seen, cannot make a mistake because He is infinitely wise. If Satan is intelligent and cunning, how much more so is the one who created him? It is highly unlikely that He would make a mistake because He is perfect. And as you mentioned in the verse you shared, it is also written in other scriptures that He will do anything He wills.
 

ThePuffyBlob

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2019
1,265
498
83
in a secret chamber and needed help
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
That's a nice convenient way to escape responsibility for your sin. "God made me do it".
But I never said that it was God who made me do it. And why are you disregarding one verse just to accept another?

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

And please stop blaming me for something you assumed on your own.

Oh, let me also assume some things. Since it was part of God's plan, should everything really be blamed on God?
 

ThePuffyBlob

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2019
1,265
498
83
in a secret chamber and needed help
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
God created all things, both seen and unseen. Are you saying that Satan was not created by God? That God did not create the archangels? The angels? Let's also assume things the way you did. Isn't it the same, since it's Satan who is deceiving people? According to worldly teachings, the sins of the things you have created are your responsibility, so overall, it's your fault too. Is that how it is? Are we going to blame everything on God, who created everything? Everything that happens in the world? Isn't it the world that teaches that? And because you realized it, isn't it the world that showed you this rather than the Spirit?

Even if we disregard what I previously said about God's will, doesn't it still lead to blaming God? If the Creator made Satan, then God put him in the Garden of Eden and created Adam and then Eve. God could have restarted everything if He made a mistake, but that's impossible because God is perfect. Every possible scenario, which billions of people could think of, was already in His mind, but that does not mean everything.

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,525
1,673
113
70
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Then why are you the one responding? Are you saying you can see his heart and thoughts? That's why you say he isn't?
I am responding instead of absconding. The heart of the matter is both former and latter. A strawman is a poor man with only a pretense of substance.