The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Compare the color-coding.

Revelation 6 is just one of several depictions of the glorious second coming from various angles with similar detail. This appearance will be final and climactic. It will see the wholesale destruction of all the wicked. Compare the description in Revelation 6:15-17 to that of Revelation 19:18-21 and the objective Bible student must surely acknowledge that this is depicting the same event.

Revelation 6:15-17: “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

No one survives here!

After describing the one-and-only future final coming of Christ at the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, in which the natural realm is changed, the writer talks about the sudden destruction that envelops the wicked. This passage finishes with a rhetorical question: “who shall be able to stand?” The answer is plain and obvious: no one shall stand! This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Those left behind become the unfortunate recipients of the destructive wrath of God. This is the end. The Holy Spirit describes those left behind in such a comprehensive way that it is clear none escape.

The same comprehensive climactic destructive detail outlined in Revelation 6:7-9 and the same foolish rebellious characters are found in Revelation 19:11-21 as both describe the one final future coming of Christ.

Revelation 19:11-21 outlines: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest BEFORE the wrath of God. It is the same coming we see in Rev 14 where Jesus remains in the clouds BEFORE the wrath of God.

Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th seal is the ONE YEAR Day of the Lord,

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


When Jesus returns at the 6th seal a great multitude is in heaven after this for the marriage supper. It is at the end of the marriage supper that the armies of heaven in Rev 19 return with Jesus on white horses.

This proves your contention is incorrect.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do you say they are in heaven? They are standing on Mt. Zion, which is physically located in Jerusalem.

I wonder if this harvest is the rapture of the church?

He is coming on a cloud right?

Isn't the bride standing with Jesus on Mt. Zion?

I don't know about this.

Why is that?

hmm.

Doesn't everyone?

What if chapter 13 is local to Jerusalem and not worldwide?

I'm not debating, just asking questions. :)

The 144,000 Jewish believers are Before the Throne in Revelation 14.
they have been gathered to heaven.
They are first fruits unto God that vividly portrays them as being first fruits of the main Harvest .
"first fruits" is directly connected to harvest it is the first part of the Harvest right before the main Harvest. They cannot possibly be first fruit Gentile Christians that's not what they are. They are Messianic Jewish believers.

they are ethnic Jews, and the word of God specifically portrays the tribes that they are taken from .

these are Jewish tribes and Jewish believers.

So we see the 144,000 Before the Throne, in heaven in rev 14 ,but we haven't seen the main Harvest Jews yet. The main Harvest Jews must follow the first fruit Jews.
So in verse 14 we see Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle harvesting, right after the first fruit Jews are harvested.
So this is the main Harvest directly following first fruit Jews.
It is the main Harvest of Jewish believers.

The Jews are in Rebellion currently,against the Messiah because they do not believe Jesus came as the Messiah, but at the same time they are waiting for their Messiah.
So when they see Jesus sitting on the cloud, the ones that turn to Him , and worship Him, and declare he is the messiah, are the ones that get harvested by the sickle. ,

The entire tribulation period Is the Lord turning to his Jewish people which are his Covenant Jewish people for them to be redeemed and taken to heaven.
That is what the whole tribulation. Is about. The Gentile Church is raptured at the beginning of the tribulation. And so this is what's actually going on and what you're reading in Revelation 14.

You can listen to every postrib teaching, and never hear a word about what is ACTUALLY going on.
If you read romans 9-11, those 3 chapters describe what God is doing in dealing with us as covenant people, and also his covenant Jews.
The bride of Christ is the gentile church vividly depicted in the book of Ruth.
Note that the child is given to Naomi who has previously lost her husband.
The Jews are the " wife".
The bride is the Gentile church " Ruth"
We see 2 examples in the ot where the husband goes after his wife "gone awhoring".
( the covenant Jews)

That is the wife of Rev 14.
God gathering his covenant Jews.
"The wife gone awhoring"
Without the understanding of what I am telling you, eschatology will never be unpacked.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do you say they are in heaven? They are standing on Mt. Zion, which is physically located in Jerusalem.

I wonder if this harvest is the rapture of the church?

He is coming on a cloud right?

Isn't the bride standing with Jesus on Mt. Zion?

I don't know about this.

Why is that?

hmm.

Doesn't everyone?

What if chapter 13 is local to Jerusalem and not worldwide?

I'm not debating, just asking questions. :)

Quote:
"He is coming on a cloud right?"
Yes.the pretrib rapture is vividly depicted in Acts ch 1.
" He ascended into the clouds and the angels declared the would return in the exact same setting.."
There is not a single postrib rapture teaching, that can unpack the setting of every rapture verse.
Acts 1 is a prime example.
They MUST REFRAME IT.
It is a doctrine destroyer.
The Bible is a doctrine destroyer.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Without the understanding of the illustration of the ot, Rev can not be understood.
For example, Rev 5 can not be understood without Ruth.
" the kinsman redeemer"
Jesus the God man.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The 144,000 Jewish believers are Before the Throne in Revelation 14.
they have been gathered to heaven.

Mount Zion is on the Earth isn't it?

these are Jewish tribes and Jewish believers.

Yes, I see that.

So in verse 14 we see Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle harvesting, right after the first fruit Jews are harvested.
So this is the main Harvest directly following first fruit Jews.
It is the main Harvest of Jewish believers.

Doesn't the text say that the Verse 14 harvest is reaped from the earth into the clouds? Doesn't this depict the rapture of the church?

The Gentile Church is raptured at the beginning of the tribulation.

Jesus seems to indicate that the tribulation period begins at the destruction of the Jewish temple, which took place in AD70.

If you read romans 9-11, those 3 chapters describe what God is doing in dealing with us as covenant people, and also his covenant Jews.

Romans 9 is about Israel, not Gentiles.

The bride of Christ is the gentile church vividly depicted in the book of Ruth.

I thought the 144,000 were the Bride of Christ. Aren't we Gentiles invited to the Marriage supper? I could be wrong.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Quote:
"He is coming on a cloud right?"

Yes, he is coming on a cloud, which is not heaven. But isn't Revelation 14:1 talking about Mt. Zion? And isn't Mt. Zion on the earth?

Yes.the pretrib rapture is vividly depicted in Acts ch 1.

I don't understand.

 

[WPM]

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest BEFORE the wrath of God. It is the same coming we see in Rev 14 where Jesus remains in the clouds BEFORE the wrath of God.

Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th seal is the ONE YEAR Day of the Lord,

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


When Jesus returns at the 6th seal a great multitude is in heaven after this for the marriage supper. It is at the end of the marriage supper that the armies of heaven in Rev 19 return with Jesus on white horses.

This proves your contention is incorrect.

The 6th seal sees utter destruction. This is the end of the world. It is the end for the wicked and fall and creation. You avoid this, and deviate off onto other Scripture, every time we get here. There are not numerous future comings of the Lord. There are simply several different camera views in the book of Revelation of the same ongoing intra-Advent period and the one and only return of Christ.

John said in Revelation 6:12-17: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

• The sun becomes black.
• The moon becomes as blood.
• The stars of heaven fall unto the earth.
• The heaven departs like a scroll.
• Every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, he is coming on a cloud, which is not heaven. But isn't Revelation 14:1 talking about Mt. Zion? And isn't Mt. Zion on the earth?

I don't understand.

In acts 1,The angels told the disciples that He would return in the same manner.
( that would be no horses, no sickle, or anyone with Him)
( it also is the
setting of commerce and normal life)

Everything present in a postrib rapture make Acts one " like manner" a total lie.

 

[WPM]

Quote:
"He is coming on a cloud right?"
Yes.the pretrib rapture is vividly depicted in Acts ch 1.
" He ascended into the clouds and the angels declared the would return in the exact same setting.."
There is not a single postrib rapture teaching, that can unpack the setting of every rapture verse.
Acts 1 is a prime example.
They MUST REFRAME IT.
It is a doctrine destroyer.
The Bible is a doctrine destroyer.

The only way you can keep repeating this error is by keeping avoiding all the solid rebuttals that forbid your doctrine. I have address this several times with you but you keep ducking around it.

It would help if you would actually read what you are presenting as evidence before presenting it. Your texts say the opposite to what it stated. You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem. Acts 1 does not say that Jesus returns to the exact same spot on earth that we departed. It says it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return. He ascended up in a cloud into heaven; He will descend in a cloud when He comes.

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Personally: “This same Jesus….”
•Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go…”
•Literally: “In like manner:

That is how He is going to return!

Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

The second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Here we see the most public event of all time – the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Mount Zion is on the Earth isn't it?

Yes, I see that.

Doesn't the text say that the Verse 14 harvest is reaped from the earth into the clouds? Doesn't this depict the rapture of the church?

Jesus seems to indicate that the tribulation period begins at the destruction of the Jewish temple, which took place in AD70.

Romans 9 is about Israel, not Gentiles.

I thought the 144,000 were the Bride of Christ. Aren't we Gentiles invited to the Marriage supper? I could be wrong.

None pf us Gentiles are from Jewish tribes.
The 144k are vividly depicted as ethnic Jews.
Again romans 9-11 tells us God's future plan to bring back the covenant Jews.
Actually impossible to miss

 

[rebuilder 454]

The only way you can keep repeating this error is by keeping avoiding all the solid rebuttals that forbid your doctrine. I have address this several times with you but you keep ducking around it.

It would help if you would actually read what you are presenting as evidence before presenting it. Your texts say the opposite to what it stated. You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem. Acts 1 does not say that Jesus returns to the exact same spot on earth that we departed. It says it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return. He ascended up in a cloud into heaven; He will descend in a cloud when He comes.

The narrative says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Personally: “This same Jesus….”
•Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go…”
•Literally: “In like manner:

That is how He is going to return!

Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

The second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Here we see the most public event of all time – the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

We both believe he comes back after the trib.

Your error is trying to FORCE " like manner " into a warrior king accompanied by millions of saints, with millions of horses blackening the sky , slaughtering the army of satan,Satan,.

Now let's look at the Bible without the "one coming" blinders.

Acts 1 has nothing of your doctrine !
Nothing!
Oh, wait, let's OMIT 90% OF THAT DIALOGUE.
POOOF!!! The postribber special bible appears!!!!
Lets remove;
" solo Jesus"
" like manner"
" limited audience"
"audience if His Bride ONLY"
" like manner of commerce and normal life"


You can install in your postribber version, ya'lls superior tampered version!!!!!

Acts 1 ( postribber revised edition)
" as the famished disciples, running from cave to cave, under massive persecution because Cesar required a mark,which the entire non Christian world had on their forehead,they saw Jesus as a warrior, on a white horse, accompanied by millions of saints , also on white horses, with Satan bound and chained, and all the Roman army destroyed,....
The angels told the disciples that were gazing at the spectacle, this same Jesus that you see as a warrior, defeating Satan and the Roman army, and Chaining Satan for a thousand years, with the sword proceeding from his mouth, shall return in like manner.

That would be a perfect new addition to the post-tribber Bible.

New edition coming to you soon!!!!
( with the all New " before the flood gathering, and Sodom destroyed pretrib" nonsense, eliminated, for your reading pleasure"!!!).
We correctly inserted Noah raptured after the flood and lot with a titanium umbrella crawling out with no skin left after those judgements.
It is what we know and demand of God's erroneous King James foolishness.
Only $ 18.95.
(Because Darby needs to pay !!!)
We can not get that man outta our minds!!!!
Make him pay!!!!!
The torment is making us change the Bible!!!
Help us!!!!!
Buy 1895 of them!!!!!
Darby did it to us!!!!!!
He made us change the bible!!!!!!!!!
Please help!!!!!!
Send money""""
Before the AC takes all our money!!!!!!!
There is no escape!!!!!
We are doomed!!!!!!!
Jesus is misleading millions into that king James false rapture verses.!!!!!!!
Jesus erroneously escaped to Egypt!!!!!
He would have been protected.!!!!!
We will get that Jesus stuff out of our bibles!!
Oh wait...we already did!!!!
Whew....now we are solid " one coming postrib rapture"!!!!!!!!

 

[CadyandZoe]

In acts 1,The angels told the disciples that He would return in the same manner.
( that would be no horses, no sickle, or anyone with Him)
( it also is the
setting of commerce and normal life)

Everything present in a postrib rapture make Acts one " like manner" a total lie.

You make a good point about the passage in Acts 1. But I don't know how this relates to pre- or post- tribulation.

As a side note, I am unsure what people mean by "The Great Tribulation" since there is more than one way to understand that phrase.

 

[CadyandZoe]

None pf us Gentiles are from Jewish tribes.
The 144k are vividly depicted as ethnic Jews.
Again romans 9-11 tells us God's future plan to bring back the covenant Jews.
Actually impossible to miss

I agree that the 144k are from Jewish tribes. But since the 144k are with Jesus on Mt. Zion, I don't think John was talking about them in Revelation 14:14.

 

[WPM]

We both believe he comes back after the trib.

Your error is trying to FORCE " like manner " into a warrior king accompanied by millions of saints, with millions of horses blackening the sky , slaughtering the army of satan,Satan,.

Now let's look at the Bible without the "one coming" blinders.

Acts 1 has nothing of your doctrine !
Nothing!
Oh, wait, let's OMIT 90% OF THAT DIALOGUE.
POOOF!!! The postribber special bible appears!!!!
Lets remove;
" solo Jesus"
" like manner"
" limited audience"
"audience if His Bride ONLY"
" like manner of commerce and normal life"


You can install in your postribber version, ya'lls superior tampered version!!!!!

Acts 1 ( postribber revised edition)
" as the famished disciples, running from cave to cave, under massive persecution because Cesar required a mark,which the entire non Christian world had on their forehead,they saw Jesus as a warrior, on a white horse, accompanied by millions of saints , also on white horses, with Satan bound and chained, and all the Roman army destroyed,....
The angels told the disciples that were gazing at the spectacle, this same Jesus that you see as a warrior, defeating Satan and the Roman army, and Chaining Satan for a thousand years, with the sword proceeding from his mouth, shall return in like manner.

That would be a perfect new addition to the post-tribber Bible.

New edition coming to you soon!!!!
( with the all New " before the flood gathering, and Sodom destroyed pretrib" nonsense, eliminated, for your reading pleasure"!!!).
We correctly inserted Noah raptured after the flood and lot with a titanium umbrella crawling out with no skin left after those judgements.
It is what we know and demand of God's erroneous King James foolishness.
Only $ 18.95.
(Because Darby needs to pay !!!)
We can not get that man outta our minds!!!!
Make him pay!!!!!
The torment is making us change the Bible!!!
Help us!!!!!
Buy 1895 of them!!!!!
Darby did it to us!!!!!!
He made us change the bible!!!!!!!!!
Please help!!!!!!
Send money""""
Before the AC takes all our money!!!!!!!
There is no escape!!!!!
We are doomed!!!!!!!
Jesus is misleading millions into that king James false rapture verses.!!!!!!!
Jesus erroneously escaped to Egypt!!!!!
He would have been protected.!!!!!
We will get that Jesus stuff out of our bibles!!
Oh wait...we already did!!!!
Whew....now we are solid " one coming postrib rapture"!!!!!!!!

This is all gibberish. Your avoidance exposes your error.

 

[The Light]

The 6th seal sees utter destruction. This is the end of the world. It is the end for the wicked and fall and creation. You avoid this, and deviate off onto other Scripture, every time we get here. There are not numerous future comings of the Lord. There are simply several different camera views in the book of Revelation of the same ongoing intra-Advent period and the one and only return of Christ.

John said in Revelation 6:12-17: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

The kings of the earth are hiding because..........For the great day of his wrath is come;...............The one year Day of the Lord has come.
That means the trumpets and vials of wrath...........which occurs in the 7th seal...................are coming on the earth.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

It is the return of Christ. It is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the Lord remaining in the clouds and sending His angels to gather the elect. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. That is why there is a great multitude IN HEAVEN in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

• The sun becomes black.
• The moon becomes as blood.
• The stars of heaven fall unto the earth.
• The heaven departs like a scroll.
• Every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

This occurs at the second coming IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days.

Then the wrath of God begins.

 

[WPM]

The kings of the earth are hiding because..........For the great day of his wrath is come;...............The one year Day of the Lord has come.
That means the trumpets and vials of wrath...........which occurs in the 7th seal...................are coming on the earth.

It is the return of Christ. It is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the Lord remaining in the clouds and sending His angels to gather the elect. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. That is why there is a great multitude IN HEAVEN in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


This occurs at the second coming IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days.

Then the wrath of God begins.

Both of these refer to the same climactic event. These are recapitulations. The fact that you cannot provide one single passage in the rest of Scripture that supports your supposed rapture of the Church followed by tribulation followed by a third coming demolishes your whole thesis.

All you have is your faulty chronological insistence which is nonsensical and totally unscriptural.

 

[The Light]

Both of these refer to the same climactic event.

Impossible. The second coming has Jesus remaining in the clouds BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jesus does come for Armageddon but that occurs toward the end of wrath.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

These are recapitulations.

The seals are in order. Do you see anything in the 6 seals that says that the trumpets occur. No. That happens in the 7th seal. You have absolutely no scriptural support for these false beliefs.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The fact that you cannot provide one single passage in the rest of Scripture that supports your supposed rapture of the Church followed by tribulation followed by a third coming demolishes your whole thesis.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

All you have is your faulty chronological insistence which is nonsensical and totally unscriptural.

LOL. Faulty chronological order? Why are they numbered and opened in order? Unscriptural? LOL.

The first 6 seals can be seen in order in Matthew 24. What we do not see is the 7th seal which is the wrath of God. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. All are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. All return with the Lord for Armageddon and then the millennial kingdom is set up.

So your belief has the Church going through the wrath of God when the Word of God says we are not appointed to wrath. Your view has to pretend about half of Revelation doesn't happen and your view has to pretend that God's numbers mean nothing.

How can you possibly fool yourself into believing what you have been taught.

 

[WPM]

Impossible. The second coming has Jesus remaining in the clouds BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jesus does come for Armageddon but that occurs toward the end of wrath.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


The seals are in order. Do you see anything in the 6 seals that says that the trumpets occur. No. That happens in the 7th seal. You have absolutely no scriptural support for these false beliefs.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


LOL. Faulty chronological order? Why are they numbered and opened in order? Unscriptural? LOL.

The first 6 seals can be seen in order in Matthew 24. What we do not see is the 7th seal which is the wrath of God. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. All are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. All return with the Lord for Armageddon and then the millennial kingdom is set up.

So your belief has the Church going through the wrath of God when the Word of God says we are not appointed to wrath. Your view has to pretend about half of Revelation doesn't happen and your view has to pretend that God's numbers mean nothing.

How can you possibly fool yourself into believing what you have been taught.

We are subject to the wrath of Satan. The wicked are under the wrath of God.

Revelation involves recaps - all ending at the second coming.

The 7th seal is simply silence in heaven.

 

[The Light]

We are subject to the wrath of Satan.

During the tribulation.

The wicked are under the wrath of God.

Immediately after the tribulation of those the son and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Then appear the sign of the Son of Man. The second coming occurs there is a rapture and then the 7th is opened. The 7th seal is the Day of the Lord..........the day of His wrath.

Revelation involves recaps - all ending at the second coming.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All go to heaven for the marriage supper and then Jesus returns with the armies of heaven

The 7th seal is simply silence in heaven.

Yeah right. Those trumpets are a mirage. Pay no attention to the trumpets. They do nothing. It's that silence in heaven that is the concern. Get real. Total nonsense.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree that the 144k are from Jewish tribes. But since the 144k are with Jesus on Mt. Zion, I don't think John was talking about them in Revelation 14:14.

Vs 14 is not about them.
The 144k are in heaven before vs 14's gathering