The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Why are you so merciless and lacking in grace?

The guy that constantly accuses the brethren of being liars looks for mercy when his friend is caught trying to deceive others.

Did you even give him a chance to explain where he got that information from? Why do you assume he was purposely trying to misrepresent scripture there?

He can explain anytime he wants. He knows what he did, and he got caught.

Not WPM or me. You are obviously just making that assumption without even giving someone a chance to explain themselves. That is very un-Christlike.

Accusing brethren, that have different beliefs as you liars doesn't seem so Christ like.

You shall know them by their fruit.

Do you have any other examples of us or any other Amil supposedly purposely twisting scripture to fit our doctrine

Always the same.

This is just your opinion and does not prove anything, so it doesn't relate to your false accusation of us twisting scripture.

Opinion? Those are FACTS. He got caught...........FACTS.

It does bother me that there seems very few that seek righteousness and truth. There are five wise and five foolish.

 

[The Light]

What is your point here? Do me a favor and exegete Matthew 25:1-13 for me to show exactly how you interpret it and why and then we can discuss it. Deal?

I spent more time commenting today than I should have. Got a busy schedule. How about you doing what you want me to do and I will show you your error. Deal?

 

[David in NJ]

No. We are discussing one of Jesus' parables as recorded in Luke 16. In that passage, Jesus tells a fable, which has a basis in Hebrew mythology.

Here we can see that God destroys people in hell. Since people are destroyed in hell, we understand that they are not alive long enough to have conversations with each other as depicted in Jesus' fable.

Jesus tells a fable, which has a basis in Hebrew mythology.

Greek Mythology rose out of the actual Truth that took place in Genesis chapter 5 and 6
JESUS never told a fable based on Greek Mythology.

JESUS says "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"
JESUS says: "IAM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE"
JESUS says: "These words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life."

 

[CadyandZoe]

All nonsense.

Your response is nonsense.

But, you already know I believe that.

I know that you can't be convinced of anything.

Why didn't you address what I said about Jesus specifying how many brothers the rich man had? Why would He include a detail like that in a parable?

Why does it matter? What is the name of the rich man?

Also, please address what I said in post #2245 which relates to the fact that Jesus never references things that aren't real in His parables that He uses to represent other things.

I ignored your supposition for obvious reasons. If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is indeed a parable, then your objection is unfounded. In other words, you simply want to ignore a case that defeats your supposition.

That includes any places that He references. For example, the field in the parable of the wheat and tares refers to a farmer's field and it represents the world, as does the reference to the lake (or sea) in the parable of the good and bad fish in Matthew 13:47-50.

Your argument that a parable is always structured a certain way is unfounded.
[Page snapshot comes from Parables — Sound Interpretation Project [handout]

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you think Jesus talking about in the following verses where He referenced hell/Hades?

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (hades) for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Notice that the people of Capernaum thought they were going to heaven but Jesus said they would be brought down to hell instead. So, He was contracting heaven and hell there. You think He was contrasting heaven with the grave? What sense would that make?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it.

Do you think Jesus was telling Peter that the gates of the grave shall not prevail against the church? What would that mean?

The contrast between heaven and hell in that context contrasts the qualities of each place. Heaven, as Jesus says, is a place where neither moth nor rust can destroy and where thieves can not break in and steal. Matthew 6:20

By contrast, Hades is the abode of the dead -- the grave where a body returns to dust. Genesis 3:19.

Essentially, Jesus is comparing indestructibleness with destruction and ruin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Greek Mythology rose out of the actual Truth that took place in Genesis chapter 5 and 6
JESUS never told a fable based on Greek Mythology.

Jesus told a fable based on Hebrew mythology. The Hebrews believed in a temporary place where the dead go, they called "Sheol." This temporary place had two compartments: one for the righteous dead and another for the unrighteous dead. The place reserved for the righteous dead was called "Abraham's bosom."

This is not taught in the Bible. But it is a cultural narrative familiar to his hearers, which is why he is able to employ it for his purposes. The actual place of judgment is the Lake of Fire. Some people are thrown into the lake of fire after the White Throne judgment. THAT is the true and real "hell."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Page snapshot comes from Parables — Sound Interpretation Project [handout]

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The guy that constantly accuses the brethren of being liars looks for mercy when his friend is caught trying to deceive others.

I know a lie when I see one. What proof do you have that he was lying? Did you bother asking him what source he got the Greek word he saw in that verse from? Are you aware that there is more than one Greek manuscript that our English translations are based on? Let's say the manuscripts all have the same Greek word in that verse that is translated as "worthy". It's not possible that he got the wrong word by mistake? If you think he was being purposely deceptive then surely you can find other examples of that? Do you have any? How about for me? Do you have any examples where you think I purposely lied about something?

I call someone a liar when it's blatantly obvious that they are lying. Douggg is one example of someone who lies regularly. I showed him that the Greek word genea, translated as "generation" in Matthew 24:34 never means the human life span. He interprets "this generation" to last from 1967 to 2037 because of his made up, nonexistent definition of the word "generation". The English word "generation" never means that, either. But, he continued to insist that it means that in that verse despite such a definition of that word not existing. So, I consider that a lie when he ignores reality and tries to create a new definition for a word like that.

He can explain anytime he wants. He knows what he did, and he got caught.

And you know this how? Are you God? Can you read his mind and discern his heart? Surely, if he lied about that then he has also lied about other things since that's what liars do. So, do you have any other examples of his supposed lying or any examples of any other amils like myself lying? If not, then it's quite a leap to call him a liar based on one example where you can't prove his intentions and to call me a liar when you have no examples you can provide to back that up.

Accusing brethren, that have different beliefs as you liars doesn't seem so Christ like.

You shall know them by their fruit.

That is not what I do. I don't consider having a different belief, in and of itself, a lie. You are lying by accusing me of that.

Opinion? Those are FACTS. He got caught...........FACTS.

It's not a fact that he lied. A lie is to intentionally tell falsehood. He has no reason to do that. Scripture is overwhelmingly in favor of the truth of Amillennialism. Why would he lie about the meaning of one word in one verse as if the truth of all this hinges on that one word in that one verse? LOL. That's ridiculous. I have no problem interpreting the word "worthy" in Luke 21:36 exactly the same way you do. It doesn't change the fact that the passage Luke 21:33-36 is talking about the day of Christ's return when His wrath will come down on the entire earth.

It does bother me that there seems very few that seek righteousness and truth. There are five wise and five foolish.

I don't trust you to be able to discern who is seeking righteousness and truth and who isn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I spent more time commenting today than I should have. Got a busy schedule. How about you doing what you want me to do and I will show you your error. Deal?

LOL. I have spent FAR more time exegeting scripture on this forum than you have. It's your turn to do that for once. I will wait. There's no rush. You are the one that brought up the five wise and five foolish virgins, so the onus is on you to show what your point was in bringing that up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your response is nonsense.

Almost everything you say on this forum is nonsense. Anyone who denies the deity of Christ is a heretic and no one here should trust anything you say.

I know that you can't be convinced of anything.

Certainly not by you with your false teachings.

Why does it matter?

Because we're talking about whether it's a parable or not. You don't want to admit that a detail like the rich man having five brothers is not one that would be included in a parable as it would add no meaning or value to a parable.

What is the name of the rich man?

Since he is in hell, it makes sense that Jesus would not want to give his name so as to potentially upset anyone who knew him. That's why he gave the name of the person who is now in heaven and not the name of the person who is now in hell.

I ignored your supposition for obvious reasons.

I agree. The main reason is that you don't want to acknowledge what I said in that post (#2245). Show me any parable that Jesus told that includes a reference to a place that doesn't exist in reality, as you believe is the case about Luke 16:19-31. Show me any parable where Jesus gave a name to a fictional person. Obviously, I'm excluding Luke 16:19-31 since it's not a parable.

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is indeed a parable, then your objection is unfounded. In other words, you simply want to ignore a case that defeats your supposition.

Nice word salad. It's not a supposition that every person, place and thing Jesus references in His parables are real types of people and real places and things that exist in the world, it's a fact. In His parables, He uses real types of people and real places and things to represent spiritual truths that He teaches His followers.

Your argument that a parable is always structured a certain way is unfounded.

LOL. It is completely founded. You want us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is the only parable Jesus told where He gave a name to a fictional person, referenced fictional places and gave a specific detail like the rich man having five brothers. In other words, you want us to believe made up nonsense that comes only from your warped imagination.

[Page snapshot comes from Parables — Sound Interpretation Project [handout]

View attachment 49216

We're talking about Jesus's parables here, not just any parables. That you would equate any parable with His parables says it all about you.

 

[The Light]

LOL. I have spent FAR more time exegeting scripture on this forum than you have. It's your turn to do that for once. I will wait. There's no rush. You are the one that brought up the five wise and five foolish virgins, so the onus is on you to show what your point was in bringing that up.

There are five foolish and five wise.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus told a fable based on Hebrew mythology. The Hebrews believed in a temporary place where the dead go, they called "Sheol." This temporary place had two compartments: one for the righteous dead and another for the unrighteous dead. The place reserved for the righteous dead was called "Abraham's bosom."

This is not taught in the Bible. But it is a cultural narrative familiar to his hearers, which is why he is able to employ it for his purposes. The actual place of judgment is the Lake of Fire. Some people are thrown into the lake of fire after the White Throne judgment. THAT is the true and real "hell."

Jesus told a fable based on Hebrew mythology.

You keep repeating a fallacy.


Start Again Here :
Gospel = JESUS is: "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"
Gospel = JESUS is: "IAM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE"
Gospel = JESUS says: "These words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life."

Gospel: Good News of God = Believe the Gospel and the Words of LIFE

BEFORE anyone enters the FINAL Judgment of 'the Lake of Fire' they go to the Grave where their body sleeps in the earth but their soul goes to a holding place OUTSIDE of Heaven.

 

[WPM]

Just omit the pretrib rapture verses.
Oh wait...you do that already

Lol. They do not exist. That is why you cannot quote them. If they existed you would quote them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are five foolish and five wise.

LOL. Obviously. Wait, are you actually correcting the order I referred to them, as if that matters? I hope not.

Anyway, what is your understanding of the difference between them? What happens to the foolish virgins when Jesus comes?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The contrast between heaven and hell in that context contrasts the qualities of each place. Heaven, as Jesus says, is a place where neither moth nor rust can destroy and where thieves can not break in and steal. Matthew 6:20

By contrast, Hades is the abode of the dead -- the grave where a body returns to dust. Genesis 3:19.

Essentially, Jesus is comparing indestructibleness with destruction and ruin.

Wrong answer. He was contrasting the place where the souls of believers go with the place where the souls of unbelievers go. You apparently believe in a literal place called heaven, right? Jesus and the angels are literally there, right? So are the souls of the dead in Christ (Rev 6:9-11), but you foolishly deny that. So, why can't there also be a literal place called hell that is the spiritual antithesis of heaven?

 

[WPM]

Yeah. The 7th seal is only silence in heaven. Let's just pretend that those 7 trumpets of wrath are not there.

Please stop making like this. It cuts into my day. After a few minutes of full belly laughs, I find myself shaking my head and then looking at the ground in bewilderment. I begin wondering how a person can make such a comment. Then I start laughing again. I can only conclude that your dad was a hard worker and a union member.

I recognize the Bible is a joke to you. But it is not to the Amillennialist.

How can the end of the seals witness the end of the world and then the same thing happens at the end of the seven trumpets? The same thing happens at the end of the seven vials. That is because we are looking at repeats. Until you see that you will never understand the book of Revelation. One needs to have eyes to see and the ears to hear to comprehend it.

 

[WPM]

You mean uncommon nonsense.


No, I won't.


What is your point here? Do me a favor and exegete Matthew 25:1-13 for me to show exactly how you interpret it and why and then we can discuss it. Deal?

They cannot talk straight because to do so would expose what they have been taught.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Almost everything you say on this forum is nonsense.

Your statements are empty cups in the desert. Do the work. Try to explain why a statement is nonsensical.

Anyone who denies the deity of Christ is a heretic and no one here should trust anything you say.

La di da.

Certainly not by you with your false teachings.

You also divert from the subject matter at hand.

Because we're talking about whether it's a parable or not.

Your criteria for evaluation is flawed.

You don't want to admit that a detail like the rich man having five brothers is not one that would be included in a parable as it would add no meaning or value to a parable.

Your claim that a parable wouldn't mention five brothers is ridiculous because a fictional story can have whatever details are necessary to tell the story.

Show me any parable that Jesus told that includes a reference to a place that doesn't exist in reality, as you believe is the case about Luke 16:19-31.

There is no reason to think that a parable can not mention a fictional place.

Show me any parable where Jesus gave a name to a fictional person.

There is no reason to think that a parable can not mention a fictional person.

Nice word salad. It's not a supposition that every person, place and thing Jesus references in His parables are real types of people and real places and things that exist in the world, it's a fact. In His parables, He uses real types of people and real places and things to represent spiritual truths that He teaches His followers.

There is no reason to think that a parable can not mention fictional places or people. If Jesus had named the poor man "Fred" it wouldn't have changed the meaning of the parable.

LOL. It is completely founded.

I see a person resisting the truth.

You want us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is the only parable Jesus told where He gave a name to a fictional person, referenced fictional places and gave a specific detail like the rich man having five brothers.

I don't see that as a problem. And you have no reason to doubt it.

In other words, you want us to believe made up nonsense that comes only from your warped imagination.

All you can do is mockery and speak empty words.

We're talking about Jesus's parables here, not just any parables. That you would equate any parable with His parables says it all about you.

Thanks.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You keep repeating a fallacy.


Start Again Here :
Gospel = JESUS is: "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"
Gospel = JESUS is: "IAM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE"
Gospel = JESUS says: "These words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life."

Gospel: Good News of God = Believe the Gospel and the Words of LIFE

BEFORE anyone enters the FINAL Judgment of 'the Lake of Fire' they go to the Grave where their body sleeps in the earth but their soul goes to a holding place OUTSIDE of Heaven.

I have no idea how your presentation speaks to my point of view.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wrong answer. He was contrasting the place where the souls of believers go with the place where the souls of unbelievers go.

The souls of the dead in Christ are not in heaven. A soul can not exist without a body.

So are the souls of the dead in Christ (Rev 6:9-11), but you foolishly deny that.

Revelation 6:9-11 is symbolic not literal.

So, why can't there also be a literal place called hell that is the spiritual antithesis of heaven?

Those who are dead in Christ will rise at the trumpet and the call of the archangel.