The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

If do not believe that God can bring about a reliable translation, how then can you know that you know the True God?

Right. I don't believe he is a Hebrew or Greek expert, so how can he have any understanding of scripture when he also doesn't trust any English translations? Such nonsense. No wonder he is so deceived.

 

[honeycomb]

Breaking in here …

It seems that those who believe in pretrib rapture are simply afraid of the great tribulation; simply put, they’re scared. They just refuse to believe what it says in Revelation 16:2.

Rev. 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

The pouring out of the wrath of God, as stated in verse 2, will be upon only those who are deceived, those who have the mark of the beast in their foreheads and who worship his image.

 

[Keraz]

Where is Jesus mentioned as being on the earth there? Nowhere. That is your assumption. Stop lying by acting is if it is explicitly mentioned there, which it is not.

His Return to the earth is well documented in Revelation 19:11-21. Revelation 29 follows on from that glorious event. Zechariah 14:4 confirms it.

If the first resurrection referred to the bodily resurrection of saints at Christ's coming then they would have immortal bodies.

Rev 20:4 is perfectly clear; those resurrected when Jesus returns, will only be those killed for their faith during the final 3 1/3 years. Thy do not receive immortality then, as they my die again, but their second death will not affect their transformation into immortality at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

You display an avid willingness to twist, contort and add to scripture.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This Prophecy is paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15, clearly stated to be AFTER the thousand years of Jesus as King of the world, has ended.

Right. They had Him killed because they believed He was committing blasphemy by indicating He was God. As He told them in John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I AM.". Only God could say that

Read Proverbs 8:22-31 The Lord created me, the first of His works........
So; Jesus was before Abraham and now, since His Ministry and Atoning death, He has been given all power on heaven and on earth.....
Soon, He will come again and make His enemies His footstool, reign from Jerusalem for the next thousand years and after that; will hand the Kingdom back to the father God, for Eternity.

 

[Douggg]

Okay, so you believe in a pre-great trib rapture. That's a better label than your silly anytime rapture label.

No, that label would not be accurate to what I believe. I believe that the rapture will happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist- which takes place several events before the great tribulation begins.

Rapture, any time between right now and the ToD act.
1. ToD act
2. revealed man of sin assassinated
3. brought back to life
4. AoD statue image made and setup on the temple mount
5. the great tribulation begins.

 

[David in NJ]

No, that label would not be accurate to what I believe. I believe that the rapture will happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist- which takes place several events before the great tribulation begins.

Rapture, any time between right now and the ToD act.
1. ToD act
2. revealed man of sin assassinated
3. brought back to life
4. AoD statue image made and setup on the temple mount
5. the great tribulation begins.



View attachment 49041




View attachment 49040

Start Over in making your 'Rapture Chart'.

Start with 1 Thessalonians

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His Return to the earth is well documented in Revelation 19:11-21.

Once again a Premil references a passage that makes NO reference to Jesus being on the earth as evidence that Jesus will come to the earth. That is weak. You are not able to support your doctrine with any clear scripture. It's all based on assumptions.

Revelation 29 follows on from that glorious event. Zechariah 14:4 confirms it.

Using Zechariah 14 to support your premil doctrine makes just as little sense as using Revelation 19:11-21. Seeing Zechariah 14 as something describing things that would happen after Christ's return contradicts much scripture.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

This is already true now.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Zechariah 14:10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

If this was talking about a land that mortal people will inhabit after Christ's return then how can it not ever be destroyed in light of this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Then there's Zechariah 14:16-21 which refers to things related to performing animal sacrifices like cooking pots and keeping the feast of tabernacles. The idea of animal sacrifices being reinstated completely contradicts the fact that Jesus put an end to the need or desire for any animal sacrifices ever again with His once for all sacrifice.

But, do you care about whether or not your interpretation of Zechariah 14 lines up with the rest of scripture? No. Which just makes no sense.

Rev 20:4 is perfectly clear; those resurrected when Jesus returns, will only be those killed for their faith during the final 3 1/3 years. Thy do not receive immortality then, as they my die again, but their second death will not affect their transformation into immortality at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

How does that line up with what Paul said about the order of bodily resurrections? Once again you are interpreting a scripture passage without any care of whether or not you are contradicting other scripture, which is foolish.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Paul taught that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, just as other scripture also teaches (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) ad next in order are all who belong to Christ. Your doctrine blatantly contradicts this. And he made no mention of any other believers being bodily resurrected at any other time. You fail to take all scripture into account when you interpret Revelation 20. Why? There is no excuse for that.

And this passage also teaches that the end comes when Jesus comes, which you deny. He will deliver His kingdom that He rules over now, as scripture teaches He does (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5), to the Father when He comes again.

Jesus will come at the end of the age. It is then when "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" since the kingdom will have been delivered to the Father at that point.

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

You display an avid willingness to twist, contort and add to scripture.

This is an absolute lie. Proving that you are a liar.

This Prophecy is paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15, clearly stated to be AFTER the thousand years of Jesus as King of the world, has ended.

Jesus reigns NOW over heaven and earth as He said Himself. You deny this to your shame.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Read Proverbs 8:22-31 The Lord created me, the first of His works........
So; Jesus was before Abraham and now, since His Ministry and Atoning death, He has been given all power on heaven and on earth.....

Hello? Wake up. This should tell you the timing of Revelation 20. He reigns NOW and has been reigning a long time already. A thousand years symbolically represents a long time just as "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9) represents more than a literal thousand generations and "a thousand hills" symbolically represents more than a literal thousand hills of which God owns the cattle (Psalm 50:10).

Soon, He will come again and make His enemies His footstool, reign from Jerusalem for the next thousand years and after that; will hand the Kingdom back to the father God, for Eternity.

That's a fairy tale fantasy that you made up in your own imagination but is not taught in scripture. As Peter said, we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells while you are foolishly looking forward to a temporal kingdom on a relatively small piece of land.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that label would not be accurate to what I believe.

LOL. Are you backtracking now? You said you believe that the rapture will happen before "the great tribulation". That's a pre-great trib rapture.

I believe that the rapture will happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist- which takes place several events before the great tribulation begins.

Okay, so you believe in a pre-transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist rapture. Wow, that doesn't have much of a ring to it, does it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Start Over in making your 'Rapture Chart'.

Start with 1 Thessalonians

His chart is hilarious. Shows some dead guy who will supposedly be resurrected. Only God can resurrect the dead, so he'd have to explain why God would want to resurrect that guy. Which he can't do, of course. His doctrine and his charts a convoluted, unintelligible mess.

 

[Douggg]

His Return to the earth is well documented in Revelation 19:11-21. Revelation 29 follows on from that glorious event. Zechariah 14:4 confirms it.

I agree. (fix the typo - Revelation 19, not 29)

 

[Douggg]

LOL. Are you backtracking now? You said you believe that the rapture will happen before "the great tribulation". That's a pre-great trib rapture.

I gave my answer to your question. If your question had been - do I believe that the rapture will happen before the millennium begins? I would have said "yes" to that as well. But that does not mean I should call my rapture timing view pre-millennium.

Okay, so you believe in a pre-transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist rapture. Wow, that doesn't have much of a ring to it, does it.

I could have also chose "pre-day of the Lord" since the day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

But I chose to call my rapture timing view as the "anytime rapture view" based on Luke 21:34-36, to be ready.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Douggg]

His chart is hilarious. Shows some dead guy who will supposedly be resurrected. Only God can resurrect the dead, so he'd have to explain why God would want to resurrect that guy. Which he can't do, of course. His doctrine and his charts a convoluted, unintelligible mess.

On this chart, I gave the verses which God brings the person back to life. Isaiah 14:18-20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I gave my answer to your question. If your question had been - do I believe that the rapture will happen before the millennium begins? I would have said "yes" to that as well. But that does not mean I should call my rapture timing view pre-millennium.

Whatever. I don't really care what you call it, but calling it the anytime rapture view seems disingenuous because you I don't think you really believe it could happen any time. Let's say it happened today. I know you believe that Jesus will return in 2037. Do you really believe there could be 13 years between the rapture and His return?

I could have also chose "pre-day of the Lord" since the day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

But I chose to call my rapture timing view as the "anytime rapture view" based on Luke 21:34-36, to be ready.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The day of the Lord is the day Jesus returns. Notice how Luke 21:34-36 refers to "that day" which will come unexpectedly "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". That lines up with this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On this chart, I gave the verses which God brings the person back to life. Isaiah 14:18-20.

That passage says absolutely nothing about some Antichrist being resurrected from the dead in the future. Only God resurrects the dead and He will not be resurrecting anyone form the dead until Christ returns. Your doctrine is complete sensationalistic nonsense. Might make for a decent movie, though.

 

[rwb]

Bear in mind that some of the verbs in the text, such as "they came to life," are in Greek Aorist tense. One use of the Aorist tense is to describe or depict a future event as if one were standing with Jesus in the future. From our perspective, we would say, "They will come to life, and they will live and reign with Christ," speaking of a future event using the future tense.

But the Aorist is more vivid, placing the reader in the action. John sets up the event, describing a time in the future when thrones will be set up. And speaking from the perspective of THAT time period, he describes the resurrection of the martyrs as if they were being resurrected right in front of John's eyes saying, "they came to life and reigned with him for a thousand years." The portion I underlined is the aorist tense verb describing a future event as if it was happening in the present.

Also take note of verse 5, which indicates a different group than the first. The phrase “the rest of the dead” appears in Revelation 20:5, referring to hose who did not participate in the “first resurrection” and remain dead during the thousand-year reign of Christ.

Yes, I'm aware that some translations include "they came to life" some even say "they came to life again." That only makes sense if life returned to them was spiritual and not physical. IOW they died, but were raised to life a spiritual body and ascended to heaven as living souls.

The rest of dead is mentioned because they were not counted among the martyred dead in vs 4. They are the dead who shall be called to stand before the GWTJ.

 

[The Light]

LOL. Here we go again! When your claims are exposed pertaining to one text you quickly move to another text and twist it as well. You are avoiding the obvious! You have nothing. I refer you back to my avoided post.

Pretrib is dead! Give it a decent burial.

Deny, deny, deny. Pretend that you were not responded to with scripture. Such a weak stance is the post tribulation rapture. The amazing thing is you can't even figure out that you are post wrath not post trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I'm aware that some translations include "they came to life" some even say "they came to life again." That only makes sense if life returned to them was spiritual and not physical. IOW they died, but were raised to life a spiritual body and ascended to heaven as living souls.

The rest of dead is mentioned because they were not counted among the martyred dead in vs 4. They are the dead who shall be called to stand before the GWTJ.

The KJV says "they lived" rather than "they came to life" because it's translated from the Greek word "zao" which does not mean "to come to life". That word means to be alive or to live. In verse 5 that Greek word "anazao" is used to describe the rest of the dead coming to life. That word does mean "to come to life". So, verse 4 is talking about souls of believers living and reigning with Christ in heaven. In the case of believers they don't reign with Christ and instead only look forward to judgment when they are resurrected on judgment day.

 

[The Light]

You seem incapable of exegeting any Scripture. I wonder why? When your teaching is exposed: you cut-and-paste a bunch of unrelated Scriptures as your supposed rebuttal. This shows how bereft you are of a biblical foundation.

Do you mean that I seem unwilling to change scripture like you, in an attempt to fool Christians into believing your fallen doctrine?

There are five wise and five foolish. The wise are watching for the coming of the Lord as instructed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deny, deny, deny. Pretend that you were not responded to with scripture.

LOL!!! You responded with scripture and no exegesis of that scripture. What good is that? Anyone can just quote a bunch of scripture. But, you need to show how exactly that scripture supports your doctrine. So, can you do that?

Such a weak stance is the post tribulation rapture. The amazing thing is you can't even figure out that you are post wrath not post trib.

This shows you don't even understand what people like us believe. We believe Christians will be here on the earth right up until the day Jesus returns. At that point we will be caught up to Him and then His wrath will come down on all of His enemies on the entire earth. That is not post wrath. If anything, it's prewrath, but we see the rapture as occurring possibly in as little as only a moment before His wrath comes down.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you mean that I seem unwilling to change scripture like you, in an attempt to fool Christians into believing your fallen doctrine?

There are five wise and five foolish. The wise are watching for the coming of the Lord as instructed.

Why don't you do us a favor and exegete Matthew 25:1-13 for us. Deal? Show us exactly how you interpret it and why and then we can discuss it. That's the kind of discussion we're looking for here.

 

[WPM]

Deny, deny, deny. Pretend that you were not responded to with scripture. Such a weak stance is the post tribulation rapture. The amazing thing is you can't even figure out that you are post wrath not post trib.

Lol. More avoidance!

And, no, you will never define who I am and what I believe.