The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

You force your own teaching into the sacred text. You have to.

Right. So you have to change the scripture to try to fool believers into being foolish virgins and then you want to say I am forcing things that are not in the text.

After the text describes the approaching removal of the current corrupt created order (and the wicked), you insert your Pretrib list of events to the same text. This is adding unto Scripture, something strictly forbidden in the Bible.

How is it that you cannot use scripture to disprove what I am saying?

You then usher Christ-rejecting Israel into some future imaginary tribulation period after the second coming that you will not tell us the duration of.

Don't be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Nor this.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Nor this.

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Well, guess what? There will be no corrupt earth to populate. It is all going up in a puff of smoke. This text totally forbids your doctrine.

I don't need to guess as the scripture tells a different story.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything regarding end times that you claim that I can't disprove by the Word of God?

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

I haven't read any Left Behind novels. I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

How is it that you are unable to understand that those taken are before the throne and attend the marriage supper.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I can post scripture, after scripture, after scripture that proves all your claims are incorrect. Do you have ANY end time beliefs that I cannot disprove. Let's start there. ANYTHING?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, this is incorrect. Contrary to your proposal, the term "Christ," which is the Anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," indicates an anointed, human man, king of Israel. All of the kings of Israel were men, and they were all anointed. Israel understood this concept and accepted it as fact.

But, the Bible speaks about a special son of God who would sit on David's throne forever. Presumably, based on this, they thought that the coming one, the special son of God that would sit on David's throne forever, would need to be an angel or a theophany because only an angel or a theophany can live forever.

In his epistle to the Hebrews, however, Paul argued that the son of God would not be an angel or a theophany but a man instead. It was fitting that the Messiah be a man and God's promise to David was that a human son of his would sit on his throne forever. (Refer to Psalm 8.) Some of the new converts to Christianity from among the Hebrews were falling away from the faith because some were arguing that Jesus' humanity disqualified him from being the messiah. Therefore, the better course was a return to Moses.

The Spirit of the antichrist denies that Jesus, having come in the flesh, is the messiah.

You have the spirit of antichrist in you because you deny that God has come in the flesh which is what antichrists do. But scripture says He has come in the flesh. Emmanuel. God with us. No one here is going to fall for your Satanic lies.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope! What you... are saying is from JUDAISM of the Jews, for they believe that Jesus of Nazareth was just a flesh man only, and not GOD.

I disagree with your conclusion for two reasons. First, Paul wrote an epistle to the Hebrews in defense of his belief that the Messiah would be a man and that it was fitting that the Messiah be a man. He wrote this epistle to encourage Hebrew converts to Christianity to keep the faith and not listen to religious leaders who excommunicated Hebrew converts from the synagogue for believing that Jesus, a man, was the messiah.

Secondly, we know that the Jewish religious leaders expected the Messiah to be divine because we have Jesus' argument against their belief recorded in John's gospel.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

Here we face an issue: the Jews didn't believe in Jesus because they expected the Messiah to be God, while Jesus was a man. Jesus proves to them from scripture that the Christ was going to be a man, not God himself.

Those who refuse to belief that Jesus of Nazareth is "Immanuel" as written, which means "God with us", also as written, align themselves with antichrist.

It's that simple. No further discussion needed.

The name "Immanuel: God is with us" isn't intended to indicate location as if to say, "God himself walks among us." The name is intended to encourage Israel in the knowledge that "God has not abandoned us or forsaken us as a people." The opposite of "with" in this context is "against", meaning "God is with us not against us."

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe the rapture will occur before "the great tribulation"?

Yes.

 

[WPM]

Right. So you have to change the scripture to try to fool believers into being foolish virgins and then you want to say I am forcing things that are not in the text.


How is it that you cannot use scripture to disprove what I am saying?


Don't be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Nor this.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Nor this.

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.



I don't need to guess as the scripture tells a different story.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything regarding end times that you claim that I can't disprove by the Word of God?

I haven't read any Left Behind novels. I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

How is it that you are unable to understand that those taken are before the throne and attend the marriage supper.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I can post scripture, after scripture, after scripture that proves all your claims are incorrect. Do you have ANY end time beliefs that I cannot disprove. Let's start there. ANYTHING?

LOL. Here we go again! When your claims are exposed pertaining to one text you quickly move to another text and twist it as well. You are avoiding the obvious! You have nothing. I refer you back to my avoided post.

Pretrib is dead! Give it a decent burial.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. Here we go again! When your claims are exposed pertaining to one text you quickly move to another text and twist it as well. You are avoiding the obvious! You have nothing. I refer you back to my avoided post.

Pretrib is dead! Give it a decent burial.

Burn it with fire less someone claim it has resurrected..........

Then take the ashes and throw on the dung pile where it belongs!

 

[WPM]

Right. So you have to change the scripture to try to fool believers into being foolish virgins and then you want to say I am forcing things that are not in the text.


How is it that you cannot use scripture to disprove what I am saying?


Don't be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Nor this.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Nor this.

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.



I don't need to guess as the scripture tells a different story.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything regarding end times that you claim that I can't disprove by the Word of God?

I haven't read any Left Behind novels. I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

How is it that you are unable to understand that those taken are before the throne and attend the marriage supper.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I can post scripture, after scripture, after scripture that proves all your claims are incorrect. Do you have ANY end time beliefs that I cannot disprove. Let's start there. ANYTHING?

You seem incapable of exegeting any Scripture. I wonder why? When your teaching is exposed: you cut-and-paste a bunch of unrelated Scriptures as your supposed rebuttal. This shows how bereft you are of a biblical foundation.

 

[WPM]

Burn it with fire less someone claim it has resurrected..........

Then take the ashes and throw on the dung pile where it belongs!

Agreed!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.

Okay, so you believe in a pre-great trib rapture. That's a better label than your silly anytime rapture label.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Burn it with fire less someone claim it has resurrected..........

Then take the ashes and throw on the dung pile where it belongs!

Ding dong, pretrib is dead!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem incapable of exegeting any Scripture. I wonder why? When your teaching is exposed: you cut-and-paste a bunch of unrelated Scriptures as your supposed rebuttal. This shows how bereft you are of a biblical foundation.

In all these years I've been posting on forums like this I have yet to see a pre-tribber exegete any scripture. At best, they will quote some scripture that they think supports their view, (even that is rare), like in post #2082, but they don't exegete it at all.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Apostle John was not ascerting that any man, like Jesus, could be the Messiah.

No, of course not.

John was ascerting that God became a man when He sent His Only Begotten Son = "Immanuel, God with us"

I explained the name in another post. The name 'Immanuel' comes from an account recorded in the prophet Isaiah chapter 7. God warned King Ahaz not to make an alliance with her northern neighbors because Israel's northern neighbors were going to be defeated and taken captive. Isaiah named one of his sons "Immanuel" so that as the child grew, Ahaz would hear his name and remember that God, not armies, would protect Judah from her enemies. The name "Immanuel" is translated "God is with us", which means that God will support Judah and not allow Judah's enemies to defeat her.

Matthew associates the name "Immanuel" with the birth of Jesus, not to suggest that God made his physical presence known to Israel, but to say that God's protection of the baby Jesus from harm is another occasion when God protected Judah from her enemies.

Therefore, to deny the REALITY of God becoming a man is the SAME as saying that the MESSIAH cannot be a flesh and blood man.

To deny that God became a man is common sense. The New Testament doesn't teach that God became a man; it teaches that God created a man that would perfectly represent him in creation. Jesus is the promise of God become flesh.

There NEVER existed a man who did not sin except ONE = the Son of God, JESUS the MESSIAH in human form = Hebrews ch1

That's right.

Since "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" then the ONLY SINLESS Man to Live in Perfection was the God/Man/Messiah
There were none before Him and none after Him who could defeat satan, sin and death.

But, the question is, why was Jesus sinless? What accounts for his sinlessness? Trinitarians will claim that Jesus was sinless because he was of the same essence as God. But the Bible teaches that Jesus was sinless because he was the image of God.

 

[David in NJ]

No, of course not.

I explained the name in another post. The name 'Immanuel' comes from an account recorded in the prophet Isaiah chapter 7. God warned King Ahaz not to make an alliance with her northern neighbors because Israel's northern neighbors were going to be defeated and taken captive. Isaiah named one of his sons "Immanuel" so that as the child grew, Ahaz would hear his name and remember that God, not armies, would protect Judah from her enemies. The name "Immanuel" is translated "God is with us", which means that God will support Judah and not allow Judah's enemies to defeat her.

Matthew associates the name "Immanuel" with the birth of Jesus, not to suggest that God made his physical presence known to Israel, but to say that God's protection of the baby Jesus from harm is another occasion when God protected Judah from her enemies.

To deny that God became a man is common sense. The New Testament doesn't teach that God became a man; it teaches that God created a man that would perfectly represent him in creation. Jesus is the promise of God become flesh.

That's right.

But, the question is, why was Jesus sinless? What accounts for his sinlessness? Trinitarians will claim that Jesus was sinless because he was of the same essence as God. But the Bible teaches that Jesus was sinless because he was the image of God.

Do you believe that the Scriptures are God breathed?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is Jesus mentioned as being on the earth there? Nowhere. That is your assumption.

It isn't an assumption -- it's called an inference.

Stop lying by acting is if it is explicitly mentioned there, which it is not.

Why would you expect it to be mentioned explicitly? How odd. There is nothing in the chapter to suggest that the venue has changed from the Earth to somewhere else. Try to follow the flow of thought. Revelation 20 follows from Revelation 19, where we see Jesus defeat the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies. This takes place on Earth. Revelation 20 opens with the binding of Satan so he can't deceive the nations. At this time, Satan is no longer located in heaven, as he was already thrown down to earth. Thus, the opening of Revelation 20 is staged on the Earth.

Thrones are set up. To what does this refer? Anyone familiar with the Gospel will tell you about Jesus' promise to his apostles that they would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28.

Those who have died in Christ are raised from the dead. They live and reign with Christ for a thousand years, which coincides with the binding of Satan.

If the first resurrection referred to the bodily resurrection of saints at Christ's coming then they would have immortal bodies. Why would Jesus reign on the earth with saints who have immortal bodies and why would anyone think they can go and attack and destroy people with immortal bodies?

The obvious inference from John's word that they live and reign with Christ is the presence of mortals over whom they reign.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right. They had Him killed because they believed He was committing blasphemy by indicating He was God.

No, that is not true. Again, I encourage you to read more carefully. They accused him of blasphemy because, being a man, he claimed to be the Messiah. Since the Jews believed that the Messiah would be God, they falsely accused Jesus of claiming to be God, when he claimed to be the son of God.

Defending himself he quotes a verse from Psalm 82 to prove that the sons of God were men, contradicting the Jew's belief that the son of God would be God. Jesus never claimed to be God, he claimed to image God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you believe that the Scriptures are God breathed?

I believe the autographs are God-breathed. I can't claim the same thing about the translations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would you expect it to be mentioned explicitly? How odd.

I don't. You were acting as if it was. Now you're backtracking.

There is nothing in the chapter to suggest that the venue has changed from the Earth to somewhere else.

Where were the souls that John saw located?

Try to follow the flow of thought. Revelation 20 follows from Revelation 19, where we see Jesus defeat the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies. This takes place on Earth. Revelation 20 opens with the binding of Satan so he can't deceive the nations. At this time, Satan is no longer located in heaven, as he was already thrown down to earth. Thus, the opening of Revelation 20 is staged on the Earth.

Satan was cast out of heaven already long ago.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Satan being cast out of heaven implies that he can no longer accuse believers before God there anymore. He has not been able to accuse believers of anything for a long time.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Paul taught that no one can bring any charge/accusation against those whom God has chosen. That includes Satan. Why not? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. He can't accuse us sinning when our sins our forgiven and covered.

Do you see what I'm doing here in this post? This is called interpreting scripture with scripture. This is how you make sure you interpret Revelation 20 and other parts of Revelation in such a way that doesn't contradict the rest of scripture.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello? Are you not reading what is being said? What's wrong with that is that you interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

That is not true, I interpret Revelation 20, the way John intended it.

No, it absolutely is not. It contradicts all the scriptures that teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection

I see no evidence that Jesus is reigning. Don't you watch the news?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have the spirit of antichrist in you because you deny that God has come in the flesh which is what antichrists do.

That isn't what John said. He is warning us about those who claim that Jesus, having come in the flesh, is not the Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

I believe the autographs are God-breathed. I can't claim the same thing about the translations.

If you do not believe that God can bring about a reliable translation, how then can you know that you know the True God?