Satan Demons Angels and Spiritual Warfare

[face2face]

2000 years of teaching by the Church Fathers, is not a hint of evidence in your estimation. Wow

Confidence in men and not in the Word of God - soon the hole you are digging will be so large we will lose sight of you
F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

Ah good that's what I needed from you!

So in affect, you are saying God didn't make the Serpent, or place the second tree in the Garden as the text reads.

you are on the run now C.

F2F

Everybody knows that Jesus created everyone, including the Serpent in the garden. But nobody can blame God for their rebellion and subsequent fall.

Don't you dare try to get into Gods mind to try and workout why He does what he does. I can tell you that nobody who tried has come out alive, they are all in hell as we speak.

 

[Christian Soldier]

No it doesnt - that the point - its an imagination placed there by your blind leaders.

You know what? I think you thought this was an easy subject to proved but every time you have tried you have shown error.

When the error mounts up over and over you know what happens?

F2F

You're argument is not with me, it's with every single orthodox bible scholar in history. I must reject your theology as it doesn't line up with the bible.

 

[face2face]

God did two things in which to try the first pair.

1. Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made.

Okay so He made an animal with a carnal voice!

2. Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die Ge 2:15–17.

A law upon a tree with a consequence!

You refute these verses because you have inserted non Biblical notions which deny even the very Word itself and you lack the understanding of why the test was required.

Now without faith (and obedience!) it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him Heb 11:5–6.

Like I said to you C. I will test everything you say and so far all of it has been false error - lies

F2F

 

[face2face]

You're argument is not with me, it's with every single orthodox bible scholar in history. I must reject your theology as it doesn't line up with the bible.

We have identified your problem and you have condemned yourself from your own words out of your own mouth.
That is enough.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Everybody knows that Jesus created everyone, including the Serpent in the garden. But nobody can blame God for their rebellion and subsequent fall.

Who said anything about blaming God? This is your false assumption!

 

[face2face]

What happens when you hold false teaching at some point you need to disregard what is written and force what is not. I believe you can see what is true about Genesis 3 but the insertion of error in your mind causes you to resist.

As Paul said "prove all things!"

F2F

 

[face2face]

Everybody knows that Jesus created everyone, including the Serpent in the garden. But nobody can blame God for their rebellion and subsequent fall.

You mean God right?
Are you replacing Him as well?

3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman Ge 3:1.

Yahweh Elohim is not Jesus!

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

He deceives them day to day, so they deceive themselves and many restraining them where he wants them (John 10:10/2Cor.4:4). But not as much as how he does to GOD's people, even ones who are more aware of him. The scripture depict, he does even more than that, with the inhabitants of the earth and sea.

Revelation 12:
12. Therefore rejoice, ye Heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Brethren, how the scripture is truth, are we not witnessing the situation under the sky, the earth and sea until to date? Aren't things within these realm are just spiraling from worse to worse and in disorder? Isn't it far from what good and in order GOD created in the beginning for the inhabitants?

Now, about demons;

Mark 5:
8. For He said unto him, "Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit."
9. And He asked him, "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
12. And all the devils besought Him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: .................

i perceive by the wisdom given me, legion is a division of 3,000 - 6,000 unclean spirits in unity to be know as, demon. And even in the realm of darkness there's unity, even the worldly people who love their own (John 15:19).

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Revelation 12 is speaking about a future time, when God will release the Devil from the chains he has been in for 2000 years now. That has not happened yet, so it doesn't apply to the state of the world now.

The sate of the world has been very good for the past 2000 years, since the enemy has been restrained. The Lord has been building His Church on the earth with no opposition from Satan and His Demons. They can do nothing to stop Gods chosen people from being saved.

The Church is growing faster today than ever before, so that proves that the Devil is powerless to posses anyone. What we do see is wicked men blaming the Devil for their sin, but they are only fooling themselves.

Those verses from Marks gospel do confirm that many were being possessed during Jesus' time on earth. But that was never the case before He came or after He ascended to heaven. They went on the attack because they saw Jesus destroying their Kingdom. But now they are powerless to stop Christ from building His Church.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You mean God right?
Are you replacing Him as well?

3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman Ge 3:1.

Yahweh Elohim is not Jesus!

F2F

Everyone knows that Jesus is Yahweh, Jesus is the almighty creator and sustainer of everyone. Jesus is Jehovah God, all things were made by Him and for Him, I'm surprised you never knew this basic fact.

God the Father never created a single thing, everything and everyone was created by Jesus for Himself and His pleasure. The other mystery you don't know about is, that the three Persons of the Godhead are all individuals and yet they are One and the same at the same time so go figure, if you can.
I won't hold my breath waiting for you to get your mind around that mysterious doctrine.

 

[MA2444]

That's the point, it doesn't say it because it was never given and it wasn't given because there was no need to give someone special powers because there would never be any need for the powers to be used.

You don't waste time equipping people to be able to do something that will never be required of them. Christ defeated the powers of darkness once and for all, they are on a very short chain and that makes them powerless against Gods people.

So God does not test His people through these things that happen? In the book of Job the Lord lets those things happen to Job so He can test Him. (and brag on him a little).

SO where we at now? Evil spirits are powerless against God's people, except when God allows those things to happen to us in order to try us and our faith. Except that Job was powerless against the spirits which came against him. The man prayed for death it was so bad.

So that doesnt line up with your thinking then. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[MA2444]

Everyone knows that Jesus is Yahweh, Jesus is the almighty creator and sustainer of everyone. Jesus is Jehovah God, all things were made by Him and for Him, I'm surprised you never knew this basic fact.

I'll buy that one. Jesus said, You have known me for so long that you say show us the Father? Know ye not that I am in the Father and He is in me. So those who know me know the Father...

But nothing has led me to the conclusion that spirits dont bother us anymore and are totally powerless against us. WHat is it that you read that caused you to draw that conclusion?

 

[Jericho]

If the name Lucifer is a symbolic for the King of Tyre how can your statement be true?

Also, you argument is inferred as there is no mention of this in Scripture, at all!

1. You have no context
2. You have no connection between Isa 14; Ezek 28 & Eph 6:12 (nothing at all!)
3. Each passage has it;s own meaning which you clearly ignore because you are forcing your own notions upon it

How can you take unrelated sections of Scripture, tie them together and import false thoughts into them? How do you do that with a clear conscience?

Show me where this fallen angel is the "real" power behind earthly powers.

F2F

I didn't say Lucifer was symbolic of the King of Trye and Babylon; I said Lucifer was the real power behind these earthly kings. The context speaks for itself:

Isaiah 14:3–11 talks about the fall of the King of Babylon. In Isaiah 14:12–21, the narrative shifts to the fall of Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28 talks about the King of Tyre. In Ezekiel 28:11, while still talking about the King of Tyre, the narrative shifts to the annoited cherb (aka Lucifer).

There was no reason to include Lucifer in those chapters talking about the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon UNLESS they are connected. Lucifer being the real power is the context of those chapters. It parallels the earthly rulers with the spirtual ruler behind them.

Is it so hard to believe that Satan and his fallen angels can be the real powers behind the earthly powers? Doesn't Daniel 10 speak of the price of Persia and the price of Greece? The prince of Persia opposed the angel who visted Daniel for twenty-one days, so it wasn't an earthly prince. What empire reigned during the time of Daniel? It was the Persian Empire. Who came after the Persians? It was the Greeks. The prince of Persia and the prince of Greece were the spiritual principalities behind those empires. In Revelation 12, it's Satan (the dragon) who empowers the antiChrist (the beast) and gives him his authority. In Luke 4:5–8, Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world. Satan couldn't tempt Jesus with something he didn't have, which is why Jesus never contested his claim. That is why Satan is called the god of this world (2Co 4:4). God is in the business of raising up rulers, but so is Satan.

 

[face2face]

I didn't say Lucifer was symbolic of the King of Trye and Babylon;
I said Lucifer was the real power behind these earthly kings. The context speaks for itself: ere you misrepresent the symbol

Isaiah 14:3–11 talks about the fall of the King of Babylon. In Isaiah 14:12–21, the narrative shifts to the fall of Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28 talks about the King of Tyre. In Ezekiel 28:11, while still talking about the King of Tyre, the narrative shifts to the annoited cherb (aka Lucifer).

There was no reason to include Lucifer in those chapters talking about the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon UNLESS they are connected. Lucifer being the real power is the context of those chapters. It parallels the earthly rulers with the spirtual ruler behind them.

Hold on Jericho!

The lament in Ezek 28 has absolutely nothing to do with the symbol of Lucifer in Isaiah 14

If Satan is a rebel angel, why is he called "the man"? in verse 16?

14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they look at you carefully, thinking: “Is this the man who shook the earth, the one who made kingdoms tremble? Is 14:16.

What land has Satan possessed, the destruction of which merits him a dishonorable burial?

14:20 You will not be buried with them, because you destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again. Is 14:20.

It's clear Lucifer is a symbolic name given for the King of Babylon. Lucifer is identified in the text but not a rebel angel. It is explicitly stated: "Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased!" see verse 4. The preceding chapter is a prophecy against Babylon itself, but now the prophecy is directed against the king of Babylon.

You have no reason to insert a being here which doesn't exist and has no context in both Ezek 28 & Isaiah 14.

You simply can't change the context and meaning a lament and proverb again two kings for the sake of proving your fictitious fallen angel.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Jericho

Also, Is your Satan to be covered by worms in the grave?

14:11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol (grave), as well as the sound of your stringed instruments. You lie on a bed of maggots, with a blanket of worms over you Is 14:11.

Or is he not rather to be cast into the lake of fire? (Rev. 20:10).

Here is what I think, because you don't understand the lament of Ezek 28 and the Proverb of Isaiah 14 you have twisted it for your own purpose and in doing so lost the beauty of those messages.

Even Christian Scholars today openly state these passages cannot be used to support fallen angel theology.

We have seen Christian try to force it even into Genesis 3 without success and not you are trying to force it into Ezek 28 & Isaiah 14.

What Scripture is safe from your hands?

F2F

 

[MA2444]

Hold on Jericho!

The lament in Ezek 28 has absolutely nothing to do with the symbol of Lucifer in Isaiah 14

If Satan is a rebel angel, why is he called "the man"? in verse 16?

14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they look at you carefully, thinking: “Is this the man who shook the earth, the one who made kingdoms tremble? Is 14:16.

What land has Satan possessed, the destruction of which merits him a dishonorable burial?

14:20 You will not be buried with them, because you destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again. Is 14:20.

It's clear Lucifer is a symbolic name given for the King of Babylon. Lucifer is identified in the text but not a rebel angel. It is explicitly stated: "Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased!" see verse 4. The preceding chapter is a prophecy against Babylon itself, but now the prophecy is directed against the king of Babylon.

You have no reason to insert a being here which doesn't exist and has no context in both Ezek 28 & Isaiah 14.

You simply can't change the context and meaning a lament and proverb again two kings for the sake of proving your fictitious fallen angel.

F2F

At first glance, the prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to refer to a human king. The city of Tyre was the recipient of some of the strongest prophetic condemnations in the Bible (Isaiah 23:1–18; Jeremiah 25:22; 27:1–11; Ezekiel 26:1– 28:19; Joel 3:4–8; Amos 1:9, 10). Tyre was known for building its wealth by exploiting its neighbors. Ancient writers referred to Tyre as a city filled with unscrupulous merchants. Tyre was a center of religious idolatry and sexual immorality. The biblical prophets rebuked Tyre for its pride brought on by its great wealth and strategic location. Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to be a particularly strong indictment against the king of Tyre in the prophet Ezekiel’s day, rebuking the king for his insatiable pride and greed.

However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.

Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others. But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal destruction, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:17–21) and ultimately by Alexander the Great.

 

[Christian Soldier]

So God does not test His people through these things that happen? In the book of Job the Lord lets those things happen to Job so He can test Him. (and brag on him a little).

SO where we at now? Evil spirits are powerless against God's people, except when God allows those things to happen to us in order to try us and our faith. Except that Job was powerless against the spirits which came against him. The man prayed for death it was so bad.

So that doesnt line up with your thinking then. Unless I'm missing something.

Before the Devil was defeated on the cross, everyone was subject to His power and legal authority over them. He legally gained that authority over mankind when our parents submitted to His authority in the garden of Eden. Every subsequent generation to this day inherited bondage to Satan from our parents.

Jesus didn't come to liberate everyone from bondage, He only came to save those the Father gave Him. So when He defeated the Devil on the cross He (bound the strong Man Satan) and plundered His house (liberated the captives of His house). The captives who were liberated are all of Gods elect from the begging to this day and those yet to be born. It was a once and for all deal for all of Gods elect.

Now God still uses the Devil like a Shepherd uses a dog to chase after stray Sheep. The dog knows how much force he is allowed to use to bring the Sheep back to the flock, but He will never kill the Sheep. So the dog can only do what God permits him to do. This of course is not a literal picture of what happens on the earth, I'm talking about a spiritual battle here. God allows the Devil to tempt us, but it's only for our own good as it forces us to run to the Lord and walk more closely with Him.

From our perspective, we place all of our stock into this temporal world. But God is more concerned with the eternal things, because this life is just a vapor or a flower in the field which springs and withers very quickly.
We know the world hates Gods people, it always has and it always will. Gods people have been martyred throughout the ages and now we are being persecuted and martyred more than ever in history.

John was the only Apostle who wasn't martyred, and Christians were killed for entertainment by the Romans. It is estimated that between 50-100 million Christians were martyred by the Romans and the Spanish inquisition alone. God allowed that to happen and He used their evil to bring about something good. We don't like waiting for revenge, we want to see our enemy burn in hell as soon as possible, but God has appointed a day of judgement in which every sinner will be punished. Nobody will get away with anything, from Gods perspective it's as good as done.

Job was not powerless against Satan, he defeated Satan because he remained faithful to God so Satan wasn't able to cause him to lose his salvation. Anyway God restored him back to full health and He gave him a new family and more wealth than he had before.
But Job would have remained thankful and faithful to the Lord, even if he lost his life. He was fully prepared to die for his faith in the Lord.

 

[face2face]

However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.

You don't have the key to unlock the symbology. Knowing how God communicates in the only way to interpret this section correctly. You will need to analyze the symbols, how and why they are used to then be able to assign them correctly to the King.

Context is plainly given:

The word of the Lord came to me: 28:12 “Son of man, sing a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says:

What follows is the lament and while at present its interpretation is hidden from you, you are in no position to remove the context.

In a way I feel your pain as you want it to link to a fallen angel you call satan, however inferred you make it, its nowhere to be found!

The other issue you have is why Ezek 28 to reveal you being? Whats the connection? Back story? Show from the record of Ezekiel some context to a fallen angel!

BTW if you want to honestly and openly consider the true interpretation of the lament feel free to ask anytime!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Before the Devil was defeated on the cross, everyone was subject to His power and legal authority over them.

Quote please

He legally gained that authority over mankind when our parents submitted to His authority in the garden of Eden.

Quote please

Every subsequent generation to this day inherited bondage to Satan from our parents.

Quote please

Jesus didn't come to liberate everyone from bondage, He only came to save those the Father gave Him.

Quote please

So when He defeated the Devil on the cross He (bound the strong Man Satan) and plundered His house (liberated the captives of His house).

Quote please

The captives who were liberated are all of Gods elect from the begging to this day and those yet to be born. It was a once and for all deal for all of Gods elect.

Quote please

Now God still uses the Devil like a Shepherd uses a dog to chase after stray Sheep.

Quote please

The dog knows how much force he is allowed to use to bring the Sheep back to the flock, but He will never kill the Sheep.

Quote please

So the dog can only do what God permits him to do. This of course is not a literal picture of what happens on the earth, I'm talking about a spiritual battle here. God allows the Devil to tempt us, but it's only for our own good as it forces us to run to the Lord and walk more closely with Him.

Quote please

From our perspective, we place all of our stock into this temporal world. But God is more concerned with the eternal things, because this life is just a vapor or a flower in the field which springs and withers very quickly.

Quote please

We know the world hates Gods people, it always has and it always will. Gods people have been martyred throughout the ages and now we are being persecuted and martyred more than ever in history.

Correct not a fallen angel

John was the only Apostle who wasn't martyred, and Christians were killed for entertainment by the Romans. It is estimated that between 50-100 million Christians were martyred by the Romans and the Spanish inquisition alone. God allowed that to happen and He used their evil to bring about something good. We don't like waiting for revenge, we want to see our enemy burn in hell as soon as possible, but God has appointed a day of judgement in which every sinner will be punished. Nobody will get away with anything, from Gods perspective it's as good as done.

Again the human nature is responsible and not a fallen angel

Job was not powerless against Satan, he defeated Satan because he remained faithful to God so Satan wasn't able to cause him to lose his salvation.

Quote please - God was the one who afflicted Job

. 42:11 So they came to him, all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and they dined with him in his house. They comforted him and consoled him for all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring
Job 42:10–11.

We have established you don't read the Word of God you just force your lies upon it!

It shows you also don't understand the account of Job and the lessons therein!

Anyway God restored him back to full health and He gave him a new family and more wealth than he had before.
But Job would have remained thankful and faithful to the Lord, even if he lost his life. He was fully prepared to die for his faith in the Lord.

It's ridiculous how poor your understand of God's Word is Christian

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

I'll buy that one. Jesus said, You have known me for so long that you say show us the Father? Know ye not that I am in the Father and He is in me. So those who know me know the Father...

But nothing has led me to the conclusion that spirits dont bother us anymore and are totally powerless against us. WHat is it that you read that caused you to draw that conclusion?

I didn't say spirit's don't bother us anymore, I said they're powerless stop the work of gospel from saving people or to cause the saved to lose their salvation.
The only thing spirits can do is hinder those who proclaim the gospel message and who bare witness to the power of the gospel in saving people.

The Devil and His Demons are nothing more than barking dogs, who try to distract us and hinder us but we always overcome them because greater is He who is in us than He who is in the world.