The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Timtofly]

The only parts to the day of the Lord are indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. It is an actual coming 24 hour day and no one knows which day or which hour it will be (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). So, it will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night and will bring complete destruction to the earth upon its arrival.

That is not the only description in Scripture about the Day of the Lord. You don't even post the text. So you actually don't have any parts on the Day of the Lord, other than the made up imagined opinion it is a literal 24 hour day.

The Day of the Lord was first mentioned in the OT in Genesis 2

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."

This was the period of time that both David and Peter were referring to as a long period of time for us that was compared to a day with God. Peter explains the concept, even though it seems vague in Genesis 2.

From what Moses wrote, we should know this day is longer than 24 hours, because chapter 1 consisted of 6 days of creation not a single Day. We know that the Day of the Lord is not thousands of years, because creation did take 6 literal 24 hour days. But you will explain away the point Peter did make that the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, with your own interpretation of Peter, without considering what was established in Genesis 2, even if not specifically like Peter pointed out.

Peter was taught by Jesus, before Paul that the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. Paul was taught the OT growing up and would have understood Genesis before Peter. It was John who was actually taken to the Day of the Lord. Revelation 1:10

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

1 Thessalonians 5:2

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

2 Peter 3:8, 10

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Matthew 3:11-12

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The Day of Christ, and the baptism of fire is not to destroy creation. It is likened by Peter to the Flood which destroyed the works of evil mankind.

There are way more verses on the coming Day of the Lord, and what exactly happens, than just declaring creation is done away with in 24 hours and time is up. There is nothing to change in Revelation 20 that specifies an exact thousand year period of time after the Second Coming. That is the Day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night, compared to the first Day of the Lord where there were generations in heaven and on earth doing what God created them to do. The baptism of fire will prepare the earth for the Day of the Lord, and no one knows when Jesus will return, nor the start of the Day of the Lord.

Only when the 7th Trumpet of Revelation sounds and in the midst of the week of those days of the 7th Trumpet will we know. Revelation 10:7. Daniel 9:27

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week....."

Only in the middle of the week of the 7th Trumpet will God's will be known for the exact timing of all prophecy, including the start of the Day of the Lord. The Day of Christ ruling on the earth, that cannot come until Satan is revealed, and then bound in the pit during the Day of the Lord, which John specifies as a literal thousand year period, leaving no doubt that the Day of the Lord is a thousand years in length.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul did not say that the Second Coming is after Satan is revealed. Paul said the Day of Christ cannot come or start until Satan is revealed. John the Baptist compared the baptism of water to the baptism of fire. Jesus literally cleans house on the earth so the Day can start. Peter confirms the fire of this cleansing is like the Flood of Noah's day. Creation does not cease to exist. The heavens and earth are forever changed again, at the Second Coming like when the Flood changed heaven and earth when Noah was safe in the ark. The Day of Christ is not a different reality. It is a cleansed and restored earth the same as today, but better.

You all can place a spiritual application that first century Israel was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit which changed the world spiritually, but the fire of 2 Peter 3 is still a future event that heralds when the Day of the Lord will come. If you reject that it physically changes things, instead of doing away with creation, then how is this fire the same as in Noah's day? Was there a totally different creation from the one in Genesis 1, after the Flood? You seem to imply Zechariah 14 was just a spiritual change and not a totally different creation, but you cannot see that it is part of the cleansing of the earth at the Second Coming. So why not just spiritualize 2 Peter 3, and attribute that cleansing to the first coming of Jesus as well, to be consistent with your interpretation of Zechariah 14? The pre-mill interpretation of Zechariah 14 does not contradict any Scripture, not even Hebrews with the end of animal sacrifices and the Law Covenant.

Why is there an alter and temple in heaven with seemingly burnt offerings? Is there sin to remove in heaven?

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

"In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein."

Should we not bathe nor cleanse off the dirt as animal sacrifices have been done away with?

How physical things are used depends on the Covenant with God. Why object to the will of God, as the clay has no say in how the Potter handles and uses His created vessels?

 

[Timtofly]

I do not agree. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the coming of Christ. Premils seem to miss that. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.

Two tribulations have gone on simultaneously since man was ever created, the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous is manifested in the temptation in the Garden but is poignantly revealed in the relationship between Cain and Able.

The general resurrection will occur after an intense period of tribulation.

There are 2 different tribulations here in 2 different contexts. What happened in AD70 is just a precursor to the destruction at the end that sees all flesh destroyed. The global persecution of the Church at the end will be like no other persecution the people of God have faced.

How can the great tribulation of Jacob in 70AD when the dead are raised to life happen 2,000 years before the Second Coming tribulation? That is worse contorting of Scripture than a pre-trib scenario.

The church is not Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7

"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Matthew 24 has nothing in this warning at the end, about 70AD, which was not the end.

Read the verses in context, not out of context, placing them into history on a whim.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

The Gospel is preached until this end. But the last event before the end is not the Second Coming. The last event is the fleeing from the Abomination of Desolation, that is warned about. You jump from the end, clear back to 70AD, disregarding your own context of a single resurrection that happens at the time of this trouble on Jacob, not even the church. There was no resurrection in 70AD. There was no Second Coming in 70AD. There was no Abomination of Desolation in 70AD. Jacob's trouble is not 7 years, but it was certainly not the near 5 month long siege of Jerusalem in 70AD. Nor the 3.5 years leading up to that siege. No one knows the length of a future time of Jacob's trouble, because those days are shortened.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Can you prove that Rome was going to assault Israel for 7 years, but that time was shortened? How was Israel saved out of 70AD to become a prosperous nation?

"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

How was this greatest tribulation on Jacob transferred from 70AD to the church over 2,000 years later? You say it was a precursor.

Precursor: a person or thing that comes before another of the same kind; a forerunner.

There is only one time of great tribulation, not a precursor and then thousands of years later the same event over again. 70AD was not covered in Matthew 24 as the time of Abomination of Desolation. The Second Coming is not after a future Abomination of Desolation that the church has to endure. The church is not Jacob. Jacob will have to endure the actual time of Great Tribulation. This prophecy was not transferred to the church via a spiritual proxy.

Daniel was not talking about 70AD in Daniel 12. He was told in Daniel 9 that Jerusalem would be rebuilt and then destroyed by his own people, which was fulfilled in 70AD. You don't even include 70AD in the 70 weeks, why should any one then assume 70AD had anything to do with a future time of GT, along with an AoD? Daniel 9:26 is not the same time period of Daniel 9:27. Matthew 24:2 is not the same time period as Matthew 24:14-15.

Daniel 11:31 which was fulfilled in 167BC by Antiochus Epiphanes was a precursor to the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 and the warning in Matthew 24:15 to a future event after the Second Coming. That future invent has not happened yet, and did not happen in 70AD, making a third time. Daniel 9:27 was not fulfilled in 167BC nor 70AD. It has yet to be fulfilled by God after the Second Coming. The event in 167BC was the event Jesus was comparing a future event to, that His audience would understand, and any reader, to this day would have to figure out from history.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,"

"whoso readeth, let him understand:"

When it happens again, whoever sees it will know that it was the same as the time it was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. No one saw it fulfilled in 70AD. Josephus would have understood and confirmed that point. He did not.

No confirmation at 70AD. No resurrection of the dead at 70AD. No restoration of Israel/Jacob at 70AD. No Second Coming at 70AD, and it would follow not a Great Tribulation at 70AD, either. Not on the church, nor Jacob.

The Second Coming and removal of the church happens first, then the final harvest which is the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

Then eventually we will be in this era, globally. This would be meaning during it's 42 month reign, where a lot of us, including most Pretribbers, take to mean great tribulation. And if they are all still here when that begins happening globally, there you go then, Pretrib has been debunked since Pretribbers should not still be here during when Revelation 13:17 is meaning.

The 42 months come after the 7th Trumpet, so that debunks leaving after the 42 months at the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet has the 3rd woe attached to when it sounds. The third woe are those 42 months after Satan is cast out of heaven, and is allowed to have a 42 month one world dictatorship.

The 7th Trumpet does not sound 3.5 years after the 3rd woe. The 7th Trumpet sounds before the third woe can even begin. You all claim the 7th Trumpet is the end, but it is not even close, if there is a 3rd woe.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can you point me to some passages?

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus we can see that both men died and immediately one went to Paradise and one went to hell. They could see each other. So Paradise was adjacent to hell and it's where all the Patriarchs went when they died. They all went to Paradise. It was not heaven where they died and went, they went down into the Earth to another place called Paradise.
So when Jesus died he went to Paradise, with the their.



he went down into the Earth where Paradise was and he preached the gospel to all the Patriarchs. David Elijah Elisha Noah Abraham Daniel all the great warriors and Patriarchs of the faith.
They had to hear the gospel first. The reason for all that is is because the price had not been paid, they had not been purchased yet, they were only forgiven and they were saved by faith which made them righteous.
Their righteousness was through faith.

So once the payment was made ,they Resurrected right after Jesus Resurrected, and they were seen walking in the streets of Jerusalem ,and recognized.
And so in Ephesians it says "Jesus Took captivity captive " ,and that's exactly what that's talking about.

those that were captive in Paradise ,Jesus Took with him to heaven.
Now this is all part of the first resurrection. The first fruits are Jesus and those Patriarchs

 

[Timtofly]

All who worship the beast also worship the image of the beast. And this says it is all "whose names are not written in the book of life" who worship the beast. This implies that all whose names are written in the book of life do not worship the beast or its image. So, what you are saying then is that no believers will be alive by the time Jesus returns because they will all have been killed before then. Yet, Paul says those who are alive and remain will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, you need to rethink how you are interpreting the book of Revelation so that it lines up with the rest of scripture.

That is all logical, but not really practical nor even plausible.

You deny that those beheaded in Revelation 20 are connected to this point about the image, but worship and the mark go hand in hand.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

How can you conclude that there is no beast in this thousand year period, but yet they are worshipping and have the mark and thus beheaded for a thousand years, as you put it.

Only those beheaded are resurrected. No one else. You would think that after a thousand years, all would be dead, or have the mark, not that people could hide forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is all logical, but not really practical nor even plausible.

You deny that those beheaded in Revelation 20 are connected to this point about the image, but worship and the mark go hand in hand.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

How can you conclude that there is no beast in this thousand year period, but yet they are worshipping and have the mark and thus beheaded for a thousand years, as you put it.

I don't "conclude that there is no beast in this thousand year period". Why is it that you misrepresent my view all the time?

Only those beheaded are resurrected. No one else. You would think that after a thousand years, all would be dead, or have the mark, not that people could hide forever.

This is ridiculous. For one thing you have it wrong that it's talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead there. It's talking about the souls of the dead in Christ who spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection because His was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). They live and reign with Christ in heaven.

But, even if that was talking about a mass bodily resurrection at Christ's return, other scripture says all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-23), so you are contradicting that scripture with your interpretation.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is not just talking about those who are beheaded. John refers to those who were beheaded "for the witnesses of Jesus, and for the word of God", but then refers to all "which had not worshipped the beast", which includes those who were not beheaded as well. Why would only those who are beheaded be resurrected, anyway? That's nonsense. You have no other scripture you can point to relating to the resurrection of the dead which supports that nonsense.

 

[Davidpt]

The 42 months come after the 7th Trumpet, so that debunks leaving after the 42 months at the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet has the 3rd woe attached to when it sounds. The third woe are those 42 months after Satan is cast out of heaven, and is allowed to have a 42 month one world dictatorship.

The 7th Trumpet does not sound 3.5 years after the 3rd woe. The 7th Trumpet sounds before the third woe can even begin. You all claim the 7th Trumpet is the end, but it is not even close, if there is a 3rd woe.

How can the 3rd woe be meaning the beginning of the 42 months when the following is already involving the 42 months before the 7th trumpet even sounds?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where does it ever say in Revelation 13 that when the beast is waging war with the saints, that it is meaning before, or maybe even after the 42 months begin, rather than during the 42 months instead?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them .


Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Timtofly]

but futurists inexplicably deny that.

You inexplicably don't understand the answer Jesus gave in private to His disciples.

You have no proof that what Luke 21 records was given on the mount of Olives, nor in private to His disciples.

The disciples of Jesus were already scattered across the empire spreading the Gospel or already martyred by 66AD, when the armies surrounded Jerusalem, allowing many to flee. The desolation was near, 4 years away.

The historical account from Josephus does not even lign up with your speculations.

Jesus may not have known the official start of the Day of the Lord, nor the hour in which the Second Coming happens, but Jesus answered about the Temple while at the Temple, and some points were repeated later that applied to the Second Coming as well.

If you cannot explain a denial, why falsely accuse people of denying things?

Any Amil who agree with preterist and state that the AoD was the Roman army in 70AD, that already was the case since the Roman legions already occupied the Fort Anthony that was inside the walls next to the Temple itself. Your "AoD" was already "set up" while Jesus was growing up. Does the quantity of soldiers change anything? The armies surrounding Jerusalem was not just a fact in 70AD. They had already been decimating and destroying many towns with walls across Palestine for the last 4 years. That they would attack Jerusalem should have been very explicable, especially since Jesus said it would happen.

We don't need that information about 70AD in the private conversation with His disciples who would pass down information to the church generation after generation about the Second Coming, which would outlive the events of 70AD by thousands of years.

 

[Timtofly]

They are Premil. All the Cults are.

This thread is about the tribulation. You changed the subject. You are a Mormon in regards to the post tribulation position. Calling people cults because of their belief in the post tribulation stance is your MO.

You agree with the Mormons on the thread topic, so just admit that you are a cult along with every other post tribber.

How long is your alleged "little season" where you claim "Revelation 13 and the 42 months" is the tribulation period where Satan "persecutes the church"? Do you think 14 years instead of 7? Since you seem to deny 3.5 years, as you avoid making any informed corroboration on being exact.

The book of Revelation is a cult then, as it mentions a millennium post the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I guess I am a member of the book of Revelation cult written by John on the isle of Patmos. It is the oldest cult inspired by John literally taken by the Holy Spirit to the Day of the Lord. John was not caught off guard about when that Day will happen.

Many will be surprised that they let false doctrine of established religions (man made), keep them in the dark about the cult of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can the 3rd woe be meaning the beginning of the 42 months when the following is already involving the 42 months before the 7th trumpet even sounds?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

He is completely wrong, as always, but why are you saying that verse involves the 42 months? What do you mean by that? The two witnesses are said to witness for 1,260 days (Rev 11:3) which is equivalent to 42 months (assuming each month is 30 days). It's after the 1,260 days/42 months are over ("when they shall have finished their testimony") that the beast ascends out of the pit and makes war against them. How does this fit with your understanding of Revelation 13?

Where does it ever say in Revelation 13 that when the beast is waging war with the saints, that it is meaning before, or maybe even after the 42 months begin, rather than during the 42 months instead?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them .


Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Do you see the 42 months and 1260 days referenced in Revelation 11:2-3 as being different than the 42 months referenced in Revelation 13:5? I believe they are the same.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This thread is about the tribulation. You changed the subject. You are a Mormon in regards to the post tribulation position. Calling people cults because of their belief in the post tribulation stance is your MO.

You took him out of context. He was not saying that believing in premil means you are in a cult, he was saying that the cults believe in premil just as some Christians do. That's all he was saying.

As usual, you misunderstood what he was saying because you either have terrible reading comprehension skills or you just don't read things carefully. Which of those reasons for your constant misunderstandings of what you read would you say is the reason that you do that?

 

[WPM]

You took him out of context. He was not saying that believing in premil means you are in a cult, he was saying that the cults believe in premil just as some Christians do. That's all he was saying.

As usual, you misunderstood what he was saying because you either have terrible reading comprehension skills or you just don't read things carefully. Which of those reasons for your constant misunderstandings of what you read would you say is the reason that you do that?

I think he deliberate tries to twist because he cannot refute what is before him. I do not think it is ignorance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think he deliberate tries to twist because he cannot refute what is before him. I do not think it is ignorance.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt on that, but you very well may be right. Either way, it's obviously a complete waste of time trying to engage in discussion with him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus we can see that both men died and immediately one went to Paradise and one went to hell. They could see each other. So Paradise was adjacent to hell and it's where all the Patriarchs went when they died. They all went to Paradise. It was not heaven where they died and went, they went down into the Earth to another place called Paradise.
So when Jesus died he went to Paradise, with the their.



he went down into the Earth where Paradise was and he preached the gospel to all the Patriarchs. David Elijah Elisha Noah Abraham Daniel all the great warriors and Patriarchs of the faith.
They had to hear the gospel first. The reason for all that is is because the price had not been paid, they had not been purchased yet, they were only forgiven and they were saved by faith which made them righteous.
Their righteousness was through faith.

So once the payment was made ,they Resurrected right after Jesus Resurrected, and they were seen walking in the streets of Jerusalem ,and recognized.
And so in Ephesians it says "Jesus Took captivity captive " ,and that's exactly what that's talking about.

those that were captive in Paradise ,Jesus Took with him to heaven.
Now this is all part of the first resurrection. The first fruits are Jesus and those Patriarchs

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus is telling a parable based on Hebrew mythology about Hades. The parable is set in a fictional place called Abraham's bosom, which is not a real place. It's important to understand that Jesus didn't actually preach to those in Hades.

 

[WPM]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus is telling a parable based on Hebrew mythology about Hades. The parable is set in a fictional place called Abraham's bosom, which is not a real place. It's important to understand that Jesus didn't actually preach to those in Hades.

You talk some nonsense!

 

[CadyandZoe]

You talk some nonsense!

It only sounds like nonsense to those who haven't thought about it or explored the issue. Do some research before you speak.

 

[WPM]

It only sounds like nonsense to those who haven't thought about it or explored the issue. Do some research before you speak.

Your theology is based on mythology.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your theology is based on mythology.

You are critical of things you don't understand. And you insult people with whom you disagree.

 

[WPM]

You are critical of things you don't understand. And you insult people with whom you disagree.

Not so. I describe your theology. You just do not like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You talk some nonsense!

He talks nothing but nonsense. I take him saying that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable as evidence that it's not a parable since he is wrong about almost everything.