The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[marks]

Yes marks, we have come to the sticking point where Protestantism is not found in early church teaching. I believe that my understanding is in accordance with their spiritual understanding of there being three stages : Purgation, Illumination and Theosis.

Protestantism aside . . . I'm not arguing for protestantism . . . I don't find those stages in the Bible, but I do find a recreation, and a maturing into that recreation, described in a single stage of being reborn, followed by trials and other circumstances through which we grow.

I've likewise appreciated our conversation, it's the way a forum should be! To be sure, it's not a lack of interest, I simply don't think we're going to find much common ground in what would be a next stage of the discussion - what is rebirth.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Protestantism aside . . . I'm not arguing for protestantism . . . I don't find those stages in the Bible, but I do find a recreation, and a maturing into that recreation, described in a single stage of being reborn, followed by trials and other circumstances through which we grow.

I've likewise appreciated our conversation, it's the way a forum should be!

Much love!

Scripture does not make some things plain to see. But we can see the stages in the lives of the first disciples. This is above proof texting.

Cheers! Would have liked to talk more about cPTSD though.

 

[Johann]

Oh and by the way @Johann, I am not talking about later Wesleyism which became mixed with Pentecostalism. I noticed that you did not see the distinction somewhere else. John Wesley had nothing to do with charismania.

I'm staying out of this--this is between you and @marks and the early church fathers. And I miss nothing.
1. John Wesley’s Ministry:

Methodism: John Wesley (1703-1791) was an Anglican cleric and theologian who, along with his brother Charles Wesley, founded the Methodist movement. Wesley emphasized a personal experience of faith, sanctification, and a methodical approach to religious practice.
Spiritual Experiences: Wesley believed in the active work of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers, which included what he termed "extraordinary gifts" of the Spirit. He reported healings and other manifestations of the Spirit but approached them with caution and discernment.
Sanctification: A key aspect of Wesleyan theology is the doctrine of entire sanctification or Christian perfection, where believers are encouraged to strive for holiness and a deeper relationship with God. [This is what you believe @Hepzibah]
**2. Charismania:

Definition: "Charismania" is a pejorative term used to describe the excessive or out-of-control behavior sometimes associated with certain charismatic or Pentecostal movements. It often implies a focus on emotionalism and spectacular manifestations of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing, often without sufficient discernment.
Charismatic Movement: The modern charismatic movement began in the early 20th century and is characterized by a strong emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing.
**3. Comparison:

Wesley’s Cautious Approach: While Wesley did believe in and experience the workings of the Holy Spirit, he was cautious and discerning about extraordinary manifestations. His focus was more on personal holiness, sanctification, and practical piety rather than on the charismatic gifts themselves.
Distance from Modern Charismatic Practices: The charismatic movement, especially the more extreme forms sometimes labeled as "charismania," developed much later than Wesley's time. Therefore, Wesley did not have a direct connection to these practices.
Conclusion:
John Wesley's ministry and theology included a belief in the active work of the Holy Spirit and occasional extraordinary manifestations, but he maintained a cautious and discerning approach. He emphasized personal holiness and methodical religious practice rather than the exuberant and often uncontrolled expressions associated with what some call "charismania" in the modern charismatic movement. Thus, while Wesley believed in the Holy Spirit's work, he would likely distance himself from the excesses implied by the term "charismania."

Shalom
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

I am dismayed @Johann that you have been using corrupted writings about Wesley. I suspected this myself after copious study on him and then met a Wesley scholar who told me that writings on him and his writings were corrupted. Charismatics and Pentecostals love to be able to quote him but he always, when speaking about the Holy Spirit, talked about fruit.

There is a story about a night when he and his brother, staying at an inn on his preaching journey and had to share it with a French Prophet, and Charles was dismayed and said they would get no sleep as he (FP) would be gabbling on all night.

"3. Brethren, "I am persuaded better things of you, though I thus speak." Let me ask you then, in tender love, and in the spirit of meekness, Is this city a Christian city Is Christianity, scriptural Christianity, found here Are we, considered as a community of men, so "filled with the Holy Ghost," as to enjoy in our hearts, and show forth in our lives, the genuine fruits of that Spirit Are all the Magistrates, all heads and Governors of Colleges and Halls, and their respective Societies (not to speak of the inhabitants of the town), "of one heart "and one soul" Is "the love of God shed abroad in our hearts" Are our tempers the same that were in him And are our lives agreeable thereto Are we "holy as he who hath called us is holy in all manner of conversation"

Do you continually remind those under your care, that the one rational end of all our studies, is to know, love and serve "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent" Do you inculcate upon them day by day, that love alone never faileth (whereas, whether there be tongues, they shall fail, or philosophical knowledge, it shall vanish away); and that without love, all learning is but splendid ignorance, pompous folly, vexation of spirit Has all you teach an actual tendency to the love of God, and of all mankind for his sake (Spiritual Christianity Wesley)

 

[Hepzibah]

what is rebirth.

The church has watered this down, far away from it's logical and scriptural meaning. To be a new creation is to be made into the creation that was meant at the start, with an additional bypass of the fall and the end game of God ie eating of the tree of life. Putting that into the future is the biggest lie of the devil.

But this is an entirely different gospel, sure.

 

[Johann]

I am dismayed @Johann that you have been using corrupted writings about Wesley. I suspected this myself after copious study on him and then met a Wesley scholar who told me that writings on him and his writings were corrupted. Charismatics and Pentecostals love to be able to quote him but he always, when speaking about the Holy Spirit, talked about fruit.

There is a story about a night when he and his brother, staying at an inn on his preaching journey and had to share it with a French Prophet, and Charles was dismayed and said they would get no sleep as he (FP) would be gabbling on all night.

"3. Brethren, "I am persuaded better things of you, though I thus speak." Let me ask you then, in tender love, and in the spirit of meekness, Is this city a Christian city Is Christianity, scriptural Christianity, found here Are we, considered as a community of men, so "filled with the Holy Ghost," as to enjoy in our hearts, and show forth in our lives, the genuine fruits of that Spirit Are all the Magistrates, all heads and Governors of Colleges and Halls, and their respective Societies (not to speak of the inhabitants of the town), "of one heart "and one soul" Is "the love of God shed abroad in our hearts" Are our tempers the same that were in him And are our lives agreeable thereto Are we "holy as he who hath called us is holy in all manner of conversation"

Do you continually remind those under your care, that the one rational end of all our studies, is to know, love and serve "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent" Do you inculcate upon them day by day, that love alone never faileth (whereas, whether there be tongues, they shall fail, or philosophical knowledge, it shall vanish away); and that without love, all learning is but splendid ignorance, pompous folly, vexation of spirit Has all you teach an actual tendency to the love of God, and of all mankind for his sake (Spiritual Christianity Wesley)

To be honest-I am not interested in John Wesley and his writings.

 

[marks]

The church has watered this down, far away from it's logical and scriptural meaning. To be a new creation is to be made into the creation that was meant at the start, with an additional bypass of the fall and the end game of God ie eating of the tree of life. Putting that into the future is the biggest lie of the devil.

But this is an entirely different gospel, sure.

I thought you were putting rebirth into the future, no? Now I'm conffused..

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

To be honest-I am not interested in John Wesley and his writings.

Yes Johann I thought as much. You just want to defend your indoctrination.

 

[Hepzibah]

I thought you were putting rebirth into the future, no? Now I'm confused.

Much love!

Sorry I was not clear obviously. I meant the creation of the first man, upgraded to holiness rather than innocence, of which creation we are to be in this life not the next.

 

[marks]

Scripture does not make some things plain to see. But we can see the stages in the lives of the first disciples. This is above proof texting.

I don't think in terms of "prooftexting". But I do believe the Scriptures, and if this somehow becomes "prooftexting", so be it.

Making doctrine from someone's personal experience is to me a risky business. I think we always need to use the Scriptures to understand ours, or others experiences, not the other way around.

Cheers! Would have liked to talk more about cPTSD though.

I'm not going anywhere, only I don't want to get too far down a road where we already know we are arriving at different destinations. I want to edify, not tear down.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry I was not clear obviously. I meant the creation of the first man, upgraded to holiness rather than innocence, of which creation we are to be in this life not the next.

If you are saying what I think, I agree. That we are not simply matching Adam's original state, but that in our rebirth in Christ we supercede that state, being alive in the Spirit.

And yes, we are admonished to be holy as God is holy, no waiting.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Yes Johann I thought as much. You just want to defend your indoctrination.

I am not here to indoctrinate anyone; I am simply sharing what I have read and understood. As I reflect on our dialogue, it becomes clear who is influenced by preconceived beliefs. As Proverbs 18:13 reminds us, "To answer before listening—that is folly and shame." It is important to approach discussions with an open heart and mind, as James 1:19 encourages: "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry." Let's ensure that our conversations are rooted in love and truth, as Ephesians 4:15 says, "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ."

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't think in terms of "prooftexting". But I do believe the Scriptures, and if this somehow becomes "prooftexting", so be it.

Making doctrine from someone's personal experience is to me a risky business. I think we always need to use the Scriptures to understand ours, or others experiences, not the other way around.

I'm not going anywhere, only I don't want to get too far down a road where we already know we are arriving at different destinations. I want to edify, not tear down.

Much love!

It is not making doctrine from personal experience but the guidelines are useful. I can quote loads of texts and have done so with some, but you will interpret them according to your theology and indeed your own experience. Revelation is needed.

 

[Johann]

It is not making doctrine from personal experience but the guidelines are useful. I can quote loads of texts and have done so with some, but you will interpret them according to your theology and indeed your own experience. Revelation is needed.

And what is your "theology" since most here have their own "theology?"

 

[Hepzibah]

If you are saying what I think, I agree. That we are not simply matching Adam's original state, but that in our rebirth in Christ we supercede that state, being alive in the Spirit.

Much love!

Indeed. We are to eat of the tree of life. But when that occurs for us is the big question.

 

[Hepzibah]

And what is your "theology" since most here have their own "theology?"

I base my theology on early teachings on spirituality before Augustine who ruined the western church, but have read extremely widely regarding spirituality.

You cannot just read a few of the early church teachers over a few months to grasp this spirituality.

 

[Hepzibah]

What you quoted applies to you Johann. I have studied western theologies for a long long time.

 

[Johann]

I base my theology on early teachings on spirituality before Augustine who ruined the western church, but have read extremely widely regarding spirituality.

You cannot just read a few of the early church teachers over a few months to grasp this spirituality.

Are you saying that most here MUST read the early church fathers BEFORE their 2Aorist experience with Jesus Christ, Abba and sealed with the Holy Spirit?

 

[marks]

Indeed. We are to eat of the tree of life. But when that occurs for us is the big question.

As a metaphor, OK, but specifically we are to trust in and receive Jesus. I mean, there are a lot of different ways this is said. All who call up the Name of the LORD shall be saved. Receive and believe. Confess with the mouth, believing in the heart.

Specifically be baptized into Christ, as I see it. Not water, spirit.

Yes, that seems to be the question of the moment.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Are you saying that most here MUST read the early church fathers BEFORE their 2Aorist experience with Jesus Christ, Abba and sealed with the Holy Spirit?

No certainly not. I didn't. I found their teachings later and it all lined up with my own theology.