What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[BreadOfLife]

Some have a set narrative they repeat over and over to ad nauseam….

* They begin with the long rant of how despicable the other is…
* Followed by how perfect they are…

I’ve only heard this fallacy from YOU and a few pothers here, who actually believe that you/they DON’T sin.

* Followed by “their church” IS the ancient church Christ Jesus established.

The Catholic Church IS the Church established by Jesus Christ in the first century.

We have the paper trail and the Apostolic Succession to prove it
I know that bothers you - but the truth hurts sometimes. . .

First of all Christ Jesus’ Church was established BY a JEW, The ROCK Foundation of HIS CHURCH, and His teaching TO Jews FOR Jews, who were sent to Jewish Synagogue's to Teach Jews AND any Gentiles electing to attend their meeting IN a Synagogue.

Bottom Line…Strength in numbers…can easily be manipulated that groups in LARGE numbers…is sufficient to make … LARGE numbers MEANS upstanding. That is a long standing underlying intent of a Catholic narrative.

Except that, the truth IS Christ’s Church was NOT established FOR Gentiles to LEAD… rather FOR Jews…which from the very beginning, with Hebrews, then the Tribes of Israel TO BE Gods mouth piece to the rest of the WORLD…of Gentiles.

Prov 4:
[14] Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.

Matt 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I find NOTHING whatsoever where God Himself expressly CHOSE Gentiles to be the Jews Teacher.

God Bless you,

Glory to God,
Taken

The CONTEXT of Matt. 10:5 is when Jesus sends out the Twelve on a mission. This mission was PRE-Crucifixion and Resurrection. The theology was too complicated for simple Jewish men to grasp because the Gospel had NOT yet been proclaimed to them fully.

However – they WERE familiar with explaining these concepts to fellow Jews.
God used a man like Paul, who was well-educated in Jewish theology – and prophecy to explain this to the Gentiles.

It’s NO secret that the Gospel was to be proclaimed FIRST to the lost sheep of Israel – THN to the Gentiles . . .

Rom. 10:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew FIRST and also to the Greek.

CONTEXT, my friend . . .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I never commented on Origen or Cyprian, their philosophies, their teaching, their writings or their beliefs…

I did, to prove you have almost nothing in common with the early historic Church. And I stuck to the topic: BAPTISM.

OF WHICH has ZERO affect on me.

Obviously.

Demanding anyone prove some random men who lived nearly two thousand ago were or were not Christians is MOOT, and NOT the topic of this thread.ch believed

The topic is baptism, and I demonstrated the CC today is consistent with the 1st and 2nd century. You cannot do this,

Whose time are you wasting by your deflections as you complain?

HISTORICAL FACTS are not deflections. Your polemical denials are deflections because you run from HISTORICAL FACTS.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

CATHOLICS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!!!

You're right about that... the catholics do not teach God's Word.

They teach catholic doctrine which is not found in God's Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Purposes of paedobaptism:

1. As a parallel with circumcision in the Old Testament, Luke 2:21.
2. Initiate the baby into the Christian community because his parent is a Christian, Acts 16:33, 1 Corinthians 7:14.

I baptized all my 5 kids by near submersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when they were 8 days old. I understand that the evidence for infant baptism in the Bible is not explicit and is debatable. So, when my kids were teenagers, I told them that if they believed that was sufficient, there would be no need to be baptized again; but if not, feel free to have an official adult believer's baptism from a reputable local church.

To give them a bath when they get stinky! Other than that, there is no real benefit of infant baptism. Unless the parents intend it as a dedication. then the didication is what is important, and the water still means nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

You crack me up GG. You don't want to "waste his time arguing.... over nonsensical personal issues" but you continually argue over nonsensical personal issues!

OK...Lets move on!!


Let's discuss "what the church got wrong". But first, I need to know which church you are talking about. Baptist? Methodist? Lutheran? Catholic? Orthodox? etc etc

Mary

Sorry
Not intersted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey GG,

What criteria do you use to determine if a church has biblical doctrine?

Curious Mary

Easy.
The doctrine has to be found in the bible...
or, at least, in the ECFs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey GG,

What source do you use to learn these "teachings"? Is one of your sources the Apostolic Fathers?

Also, you say "The church shouldn't have made any changes". What church are you talking about?

Curious Mary

Again.
Not interested.
I fear you can't have a civil convesation.

BTW, neither you nor @BreadOfLife have explained infant baptism BEFORE and AFTER Augustine.

Gosh. Is it that difficult?
I thought that, between the two of you, you'd know everything about the CC and its teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I educated you before – the Church has ALWAYS Baptized infants and children – before AND after Augustine.

We see in the NT that “entire “households” (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16).

Even ONE believing parent in a household renders the children and an unbelieving spouse “holy” (1 Cor. 7:14) – and THAT’S why everybody living there was Baptized based on the faith of the ONE parent (Cornelius, Stephanas, Philippian Jailer).

The Church has ALWAYS believed in Original Sin. because the BIBLE teaches it. But it wasn’t until Augustine that it was explained so fully. As I taught you earlier, he didn’t “invent” the idea . . .

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me..

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to ALL men because ALL sinned

Hermas
“‘They had need,’ [the Shepherd] said, ‘to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For,’ he said, ‘before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water [of baptism]. They go down into the water [spiritually] dead, and come out of it alive’” (The Shepherd 9:16:2).

Theophilus of Antioch
“For the first man, disobedience resulted in his expulsion from paradise. It was not as if there were any evil in the tree of knowledge; but from disobedience man drew labor, pain, grief, and, in the end, he fell prostrate in death” (Ad Autolycus 2:25 [A.D. 181]).’

Irenaeus
“But this man . . . is Adam, if the truth be told, the first-formed man. . . . We, however, are all from him; and as we are from him, we have inherited his title [of sin]” (Against Heresies 3:23:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).’

Tertullian
“On account of his [Adam’s] transgression man was given over to death; and the whole human race, which was infected by his seed, was made the transmitter of condemnation” (The Testimony of the Soul 3:2 [inter A.D. 197-200]).

Origen
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS [Matt. 19:14; Luke 18:15-16; Acts 2:38-39]. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stain of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”
[Titus 3:5] (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 244]).

The above does not explain the change that the CC made in the 5th century.

I NEVER said that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Perhaps you can stop LYING now?

OR show me the post where I stated that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Everyone born has the stain of sin.
Right.
So?

Keep digging. I think you'll get there.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're right about that... the catholics do not teach God's Word.

They teach catholic doctrine which is not found in God's Word.

Then, why do YOU adhere to the Catholic Canon of the NT??
Or, didn't the leader of your sect tell you anout that??

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.

- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.

- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed bu the Church at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

So YOU and the rest of Protestantism follow a CATHOLIC TRADITION.
Imagine that . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me where I said that YOU didn’t believe that infants were Baptized in the Early Church.

Until then – stop with the LYING and FALSE accusations . . .

Besides other times,
you stated this in post 1394, just above:

As I educated you before – the Church has ALWAYS Baptized infants and children – before AND after Augustine.

Now, let's do some English here.
If you have to EDUCATE me....
it means that I made a statement that requires education to correct.

In this case, that statement would necessarily have to be:
That I stated that infants were NOT always baptized.

So, yes, please SHOW ME the post where I stated that infants were NOT always baptized....
OR PLEASE STOP LYING that I EVER said that.

You're a very bad example for your church.
You call everyone a liar, because YOU lie.

 

[GodsGrace]

OUTSIDE of the Body of Christ.

WRONG.

I never said that you weren’t a brother/sister in Christ.
I never said that you weren’t saved.

I said that I wasn’t sure if you were – but you vomit out LIES as easily as you draw breath . . .

Cute.

Now you don't understand English either.

If someone is OUT OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.....
it means they are not saved.


Learn some English please.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then, why do YOU adhere to the Catholic Canon of the NT??
Or, didn't the leader of your sect tell you anout that??

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.

- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.

- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed bu the Church at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

So YOU and the rest of Protestantism follow a CATHOLIC TRADITION.
Imagine that . . .

The reformation was necessary because of the PERVERSIONS that the CC was practicing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some have a set narrative they repeat over and over to ad nauseam….

* They begin with the long rant of how despicable the other is…
* Followed by how perfect they are…
* Followed by “their church” IS the ancient church Christ Jesus established.

First of all Christ Jesus’ Church was established BY a JEW, The ROCK Foundation of HIS CHURCH, and His teaching TO Jews FOR Jews, who were sent to Jewish Synagogue's to Teach Jews AND any Gentiles electing to attend their meeting IN a Synagogue.

Bottom Line…Strength in numbers…can easily be manipulated that groups in LARGE numbers…is sufficient to make … LARGE numbers MEANS upstanding. That is a long standing underlying intent of a Catholic narrative.

Except that, the truth IS Christ’s Church was NOT established FOR Gentiles to LEAD… rather FOR Jews…which from the very beginning, with Hebrews, then the Tribes of Israel TO BE Gods mouth piece to the rest of the WORLD…of Gentiles.

Prov 4:
[14] Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.

Matt 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I find NOTHING whatsoever where God Himself expressly CHOSE Gentiles to be the Jews Teacher.

God Bless you,

Glory to God,
Taken

Of course you're right Taken.
But we can't be blinded either by this hatred of these 2 supposed catholics on this thread.
I attend a Catholic church right now.
All I hear is about Jesus' love for us and how we're supposed to love others and be peaceful and all that kind of stuff.

The Jews were the first Christians....OK
But now we also know that the Jews DID eventually stop going to synogague because they were no longer welcomed there.
So the split happened. And has continued.

Today the Body of Christ is made up of all believers....no matter the denomination.
Yes, even catholics can be born again - but not all. Just like in any church.

Surely it's not up to any one of us to know who is in the Body and who is not, as some on here would like to do.
We can surely THINK we know....but only God knows for sure.

I'll say this....anyone who can spew as much hatred as I've seen on here is far from God...
We cannot judge a soul --- but we can certainly judge actions - otherwise Matthew 18:15 would make no sense.

And
1 John 4:7-8
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The above does not explain the change that the CC made in the 5th century.

I NEVER said that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Perhaps you can stop LYING now?

OR show me the post where I stated that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Everyone born has the stain of sin.
Right.
So?

Keep digging. I think you'll get there.

You need to stop relying on Wikipedia for your "facts" . . .

Adults and chldren were ALWAYS Baptized - either by ummersion or puring.
The words of Baprism have ALWAYS been in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The above does not explain the change that the CC made in the 5th century.

I NEVER said that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Perhaps you can stop LYING now?

OR show me the post where I stated that infants were not baptized from the beginning.

Everyone born has the stain of sin.
Right.
So?

Keep digging. I think you'll get there.

You need to stop relying on Wikipedia for your "facts" . . .

Adults and chldren were ALWAYS Baptized - either by ummersion or puring.
The words of Baprism have ALWAYS been in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The reformation was necessary because of the PERVERSIONS that the CC was practicing.

Reformation WAS necessary - but that's NOT what happened.

Perversion of Scripture, invention of doctrine, rejection og God-ordained Authorty and abandonment of the Church is what happened.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Cute.

Now you don't understand English either.

If someone is OUT OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.....
it means they are not saved.

Learn some English please.

WRONG.

I can identify sin - but I CANNOT condemn a person's soul .
I can identify when a person rejects what God has ordained - but I cannot send them to Hell.

Study the Scriptures . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

You need to stop relying on Wikipedia for your "facts" . . .

Adults and chldren were ALWAYS Baptized - either by ummersion or puring.
The words of Baprism have ALWAYS been in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

You need to stop relying on Wikipedia for your "facts" . . .

Adults and chldren were ALWAYS Baptized - either by ummersion or puring.
The words of Baprism have ALWAYS been in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Funny Bread.
Whoever said they weren't??

You lie consistantly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reformation WAS necessary - but that's NOT what happened.

Perversion of Scripture, invention of doctrine, rejection og God-ordained Authorty and abandonment of the Church is what happened.

Yes.
By the CC.

 

[GodsGrace]

WRONG.

I can identify sin - but I CANNOT condemn a person's soul .
I can identify when a person rejects what God has ordained - but I cannot send them to Hell.

Study the Scriptures . . .

You need English and Theological comprehension lessons.

Really.

And I'm so happy to hear that You cannot send persons to hell.
Whew!

And now,,,time for my milk and cookies.

 

[Taken]

CONTEXT, my friend . . .

There is a huge difference between what you want to be the TRUTH and What is the TRUTH.