Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Bible Highlighter

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To all:

I have defended the KJV as the perfect Word for today on this forum.

I open the challenge to any Christian here to a debate on YouTube via Nick Sayers channel (Revolution). I challenge any Christian who does not believe the King James Bible is the perfect and inspired words of God for the English speaking people of today.

If you are interested in debating me live on YouTube, please let me know and I can have Nick arrange it. You will of course have time to prepare.

Thanks for your time.

May God bless you in Jesus name.
 

Christian Soldier

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To all:

I have defended the KJV as the perfect Word for today on this forum.

I open the challenge to any Christian here to a debate on YouTube via Nick Sayers channel (Revolution). I challenge any Christian who does not believe the King James Bible is the perfect and inspired words of God for the English speaking people of today.

If you are interested in debating me live on YouTube, please let me know and I can have Nick arrange it. You will of course have time to prepare.

Thanks for your time.

May God bless you in Jesus name.
The King James Bible was good for it's time but it's no good in our time. Most of us can't understand some of the old English words, so that causes confusion. The Bible is already very difficult to understand as it is, so the King James is not a good option for us, in 2024

 

Arthur81

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I'm not a "KJV Only" person, but there are reasons to still use the KJV with confidence.

One, it is keyed to the Strong's numbering system for one, so it is a good starting point for study.

Two, it was translated before the modern culture wars of today which introduced bias on homosexuality & abortion.

Three, I've found a foreign friend who seems perfectly able to read the KJV with as much understanding as most Americans.

Four, using the 1828 Webster's English Dictionary, it is closer to the time frame of the KJV translation, and the 1828 includes references to the KJV in its definitions. So, definitions are of no problem.

Five, the scholarship of the KJV translators was first class and the following gives some information to consider about the KJV:

"Not since the Septuagint—the Greek-language version of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) produced between the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BCE—had a translation of the Bible been undertaken under royal sponsorship as a cooperative venture on so grandiose a scale. An elaborate set of rules was contrived to curb individual proclivities and to ensure the translation’s scholarly and nonpartisan character." King James Version (KJV) | Bible, History, & Background

"The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)" King James Bible Translators

Read biographies of the KJV translators -

"The 1611 KJV contained thousands of marginal notes. And this despite the King’s order against ideologically motivated marginal notes (since he hated the ones in the Geneva that questioned the authority of the monarchy)." The Five Types Of Marginal Notes In The King James Bible

Having written the preceding, I still believe the RV/ASV to be the most accurate, unbiased translations for detailed study in the English. Yet, I also use the standard translations in the Tynedale-NRSVue lineage to get a broad spectrum of scholarship. I avoid the translations of the last 50 years that are translated with a view of presenting a particular theological viewpoint, conservative evangelical. I appreciate the NRSV and the Updated Edition for the academic approach, so it specifically seeks the correct translation apart from theological viewpoints. Many object to those translations because they are translated without reading the NT back into the OT in their translation.
 

SavedInHim

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I have defended the KJV as the perfect Word for today on this forum.

I open the challenge to any Christian here to a debate on YouTube via Nick Sayers channel (Revolution). I challenge any Christian who does not believe the King James Version is the perfect and inspired words of God for the English speaking people of today.
Not even worth debating.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I'm not a "KJV Only" person, but there are reasons to still use the KJV with confidence.

One, it is keyed to the Strong's numbering system for one, so it is a good starting point for study.

Two, it was translated before the modern culture wars of today which introduced bias on homosexuality & abortion.

Three, I've found a foreign friend who seems perfectly able to read the KJV with as much understanding as most Americans.

Four, using the 1828 Webster's English Dictionary, it is closer to the time frame of the KJV translation, and the 1828 includes references to the KJV in its definitions. So, definitions are of no problem.

Five, the scholarship of the KJV translators was first class and the following gives some information to consider about the KJV:

"Not since the Septuagint—the Greek-language version of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) produced between the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BCE—had a translation of the Bible been undertaken under royal sponsorship as a cooperative venture on so grandiose a scale. An elaborate set of rules was contrived to curb individual proclivities and to ensure the translation’s scholarly and nonpartisan character." King James Version (KJV) | Bible, History, & Background

"The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)" King James Bible Translators

Having written the preceding, I still believe the RV/ASV to be the most accurate, unbiased translations for detailed study in the English. Yet, I also use the standard translations in the Tynedale-NRSVue lineage to get a broad spectrum of scholarship. I avoid the translations of the last 50 years that are translated with a view of presenting a particular theological viewpoint, conservative evangelical. I appreciate the NRSV and the Updated Edition for the academic approach, so it specifically seeks the correct translation apart from theological viewpoints. Many object to those translations because they are translated without reading the NT back into the OT in their translation.
Thank you for saying good things about the King James Bible, my friend. You brought up some great points that I did not think of and I have come up with 150 Reasons for the KJV being the Pure Word for today.

As for your believing the RV/ASV is more accurate:

Well, I believe this is not the case at all.
Here are my reasons that I hope you will consider:

#1. The half title page of the Revised Version says it is the version set forth in 1611AD.
This is a lie. Both sides of the Bible debate today know that the RV is not based primarily upon the Textus Receptus NT Greek, but it was based primarily upon an artificial never before seen Greek text manufactured by Westcott and Hort (1881 NT Westcott and Hort Greek) in their attempt to smash together the two manuscripts known as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Note: A Critical Text advocate on another KJV-only discussion thread admits to this deception and he still defends the Modern Bible Movement or Modern Scholarship (Note: if you or anyone else here wants to see the Revised Version half title page, simply check out Archive.org).

#2. George Vance Smith (The Unitarian).
George Vance Smith worked on the Revised Version committee with Westcott and Hort. In fact, Westcott and Hort threatened to quit if he was not on the translation team. George Vance Smith is a Unitarian who praised the new changes in the RV over the KJV that favor Unitarianism in his book called, “Textus and Margins of the Revised New Testament.” He wrote of the changed doctrines that favor Unitarianism in the RV, and obviously appeared happy about that.

#3. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.
The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus have corrections all over them. One scribe comments to another scribe and says, “knave, keep the old reading.” The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other in thousands of places in the gospels alone. How can these be the best manuscripts? The church did not use them for hundreds of years. The Vaticanus comes from the Vatican library. The Sinaiticus was discovered at the fake Sinai location (St. Catherine’s monastery). Note: The real Sinai location is Jabal al-Lawz Mountain in Saudi Arabia (See the documentaries: Exodus Revealed, and Mountain of Fire on YouTube for free). Unitarians visit the Sinaiticus manuscript because they see it as a major win for their Unitarian cause. Bus loads of them go to visit the thing.

#4. Catholic Ideas.
The Revised Version promotes Catholic ideas. If you were to Google Kieth Piper, NIV Omissions, he lists on pages 21-22 of his PDF that there are Catholic ideas promoted in the NIV. Some of these Catholic ideas appear even in the Revised Version. Meaning, the Catholic ideas grow in number after the RV and appear to be more numerous in subsequent Modern Translations (like the NIV and others). Carlo Maria Martini was a cardinal who worked on the Greek underlying text that was a continuation of Westcott and Hort’s NT Greek. It is known as the Nestle and Aland Critical Text. He began his work in the 1970s. Also, in the 1970s, the Catholics came out with a New Modern Bible called the NAB (New American Bible). It was a Catholic Bible and it had a dictionary in it that says that the Catholic lay person is forbidden to read the KJV. Granted, this has changed in recent years. The Catholics now have a Catholic KJV (with their apocryphal books inserted in it) that came out in 2020. But the point here is that they once banned the KJV because they seen it as a threat.

#5. Modern Scholar Deception Involving 1 John 5:7.
In the Westcott and Hort’s Revised Version, they take the last sentence of 1 John 5:6 and move it to replace the Comma in 1 John 5:7. It appears that by the Ferrar Fenton Bible Translation (1906), the Comma was replaced in 1 John 5:7 with a few words subtly altered from 1 John 5:8 (i.e., “And there are three that testify:”). This means that they moved the verses to not alert the new reader to a major verse that teaches the Trinity or the Godhead (Instead of just being honest and leaving the verse blank).

#6. Westcott and Hort heresies.
Spiritism is just one of many. This is a theme we see in the Modern Bible Movement. For example:

(a) Westcott was engaged in the communion of the saints (or dead spirits) (See videos here and here by Dr. Phil Stringer). Westcott and Hort created the Revised Version (i.e., the first Modern English Bible of the current Modern Bible Movement). Their NT Greek is based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.​
(b) J.B. Phillips New Testament Translation (Not popular today), but it was at one time. He consulted the ghost of C.S. Lewis on his Bible translation. His NT Greek is based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.​
(c) Johannes Greber: He used to be a Catholic priest. He began healing sessions. He talked to various spirits that said there is no hell or no blood atonement. The spirits also told him to never ever trust the Received Text (i.e., the Textus Receptus). After he got kicked out of the priesthood in Germany, he came to the United States, and he did a New Testament translation of the Bible into English. It is still the BIble used by the spiritualist church to this day (May 4, 20024). Greber talks about how the spirits guided him in every word of his translation. In 1 John 4:2, it says trust the spirits. Not even Modern Bibles have this rendering. The Jehovah’s Witnesses had Greber’s Translation in front of them when they did their New Testament translation. John 1:1 rendering in the NWT came from Greber’s translation. His NT Greek is based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.​
(d) Virginia Mollenkott worked on the NIV as a consultant. She received a fundamentalist education (with fundamentalist credentials), and yet in her book called “Sensuous Spirituality” she states how she has been set free from the King James Bible. When she discovered this, she ended up divorcing her husband over her new sexual identity and went on teaching. She also claimed that God, angels, and a host of other spirits began to speak to her audibly when she made the claim to be set free from the King James Bible. The claim that she had been fired is false because Mellonkott herself claimed that she dared anyone to bring forth the proof she was fired. The NIV uses the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus for the NT Greek.​
(e) Brian Simmons' Passion Translation: Brian Simmons claims to have consulted an angel named Passion in creating his Bible Translation. Simmons' translation is popular with the Charismatic crowd like Bill Johnson (who is into grave sucking, and claims a miracle of gold dust came in his church). Simmons Translation is based upon the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus for his NT Greek.​

#7. Serious 50 Plus Changed Doctrines in Modern Bibles in my KJV Write-up.
To check out a few of them, please see my short list of changed doctrines starting here.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The King James Bible was good for it's time but it's no good in our time. Most of us can't understand some of the old English words, so that causes confusion. The Bible is already very difficult to understand as it is, so the King James is not a good option for us, in 2024
Well, one can say that about being an airline mechanic.

“Oh, it’s too difficult to learn the airplane mechanic lingo. I guess I will just double down on being uneducated.”​

Jesus spoke in parables and He did not give the meaning to everyone. Even His own disciples did not understand what He meant when He talked about His resurrection. Look. I get it. You think you studied the topic, but most have not really looked at both sides of this issue fairly. The Modern Bible Movement is filled with false doctrines and heretics. This is simply an undisputed fact in my study on this topic. In the Modern Bible Movement, you don’t have a settled Bible, but you have a shape shifter Bible that is ever changing and shape shifting. Dan Wallace does not agree with James White. One can become their own authority in certain areas or parts of the Bible that is under disagreement by scholars. This means that God’s Word cannot be trusted because He cannot give us His Word correctly or precisely. This is illogical in my humble opinion. In fact, many have forsaken the faith because of the false Science of Modern Textual Criticism. These are the concerns I have and I am willing to defend them. If people just want to give pat answers and run away, and not really go deep into discussing these issues, it just shows me the weakness of their position or belief.

Also, see my post #5 in this thread, too.

I hope this helps.

May God bless you.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Not even worth debating.
So you know everything there is to know on this topic?
Do you know even 5% of what Nick Sayers teaches on his YouTube channel (Revolution)?
He goes into Bible history and the Greek.

Side Note:

By the way, are for the Democratic Party and or Harris being president?

Anyway, whether we agree or not, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.
 
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Bob

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Thank you for the discussion.

Yes, the language of the Geneva (Shakespeare’s Bible) and King James is wonderful.

That said: KJV—Thou shall not kill. NIV: You shall not murder. (What have been the consequences of the KJV?)

But listen, too, how sweet the Wycliffe is:

(From Luke 2)
7 And she bare her firstborn son, and wrapped him in `clothes, and put him in a cratch, for there was no place to him in no chamber.

8 And shepherds were in the same country, waking and keeping the watches of the night upon their flock.

9 And lo! the angel of the Lord stood beside them, and the clearness of God shone about them; and they dreaded with great dread.

10 And the angel said to them, Do not ye dread; for lo! soothly I evangelize to you a great joy, that shall be to all people.

And speaking of music, there are all the gorgeous choral settings in Latin (the Vulgate), such as Vivaldi’s Beatus Vir:

(“In Memoria Aeterna”)

Blessings.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I know enough to know it's not worth debating. But you have fun though; spreading KJVO seems to be your purpose in life so enjoy.
No. It just seems like you heard the Modern Scholars and you think you heard fully the other side.

Not dealing with new information is not intelligent (IMHO). But you can make your own reality if you wish. I don’t believe you have dealt with our strong points.

So are you for the Democratic Party?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I know enough to know it's not worth debating. But you have fun though; spreading KJVO seems to be your purpose in life so enjoy.
His idol is well know,. It does not matter what anyone says, He will not change his view.. and I agree.. Not worth debating..
 

Bible Highlighter

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I like the KJV and use it. However, I'll never understand why they stopped updating it after 1611. The Cambridge KJV was updated in 1629 and 1638.
The 1638 KJV update was when the last surviving KJV translators had fixed the remaining printing errors. By 1644, most KJV editions did not include the Apocrypha. By the 1660s, the KJV began to become popular and or the mainstream Bible in English. People do not either know or they forget that printing technology back in the day was extremely difficult to get right.

Some like to compare the 1611 with the 1769 or Pure Cambridge (1900), but they don’t realize that the 1638 KJV was the KJV which fixed the printing errors in the KJV. So men like Rick Beckman who attacked this very point have lost their faith. It is because of Modern Textual Criticism.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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His idol is well know,. It does not matter what anyone says, He will not change his view.. and I agree.. Not worth debating..
And one making the scholar or oneself the authority over the Word of God can be a form idolatry because one is uplifting man’s thoughts over God’s Word. Will you change your view if I show you evidence that the KJV has the hand of God upon it? Will you change your view if I show you the false doctrines, the heretics, and deceptions in the modern Bible Movement? Well, if you like the idea of being in control of what God said and did not say in the Modern Critical Movement with no actual Bible you can hold in your hands, then I don’t think you would be open to change based on the facts.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The Gospels were written in Greek what you have is a translation.Greek does not translate well to English also.
With God, nothing is impossible.
Also, Jesus talks about jots and tittles in context to His Words not passing away.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Thank you for the discussion.

Yes, the language of the Geneva (Shakespeare’s Bible) and King James is wonderful.

That said: KJV—Thou shall not kill. NIV: You shall not murder. (What have been the consequences of the KJV?)

But listen, too, how sweet the Wycliffe is:

(From Luke 2)
7 And she bare her firstborn son, and wrapped him in `clothes, and put him in a cratch, for there was no place to him in no chamber.

8 And shepherds were in the same country, waking and keeping the watches of the night upon their flock.

9 And lo! the angel of the Lord stood beside them, and the clearness of God shone about them; and they dreaded with great dread.

10 And the angel said to them, Do not ye dread; for lo! soothly I evangelize to you a great joy, that shall be to all people.

And speaking of music, there are all the gorgeous choral settings in Latin (the Vulgate), such as Vivaldi’s Beatus Vir:

(“In Memoria Aeterna”)

Blessings.
The Bible is its own best interpreter.

Numbers 35:30
"Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die."
 

Bible Highlighter

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Thank you for the discussion.

Yes, the language of the Geneva (Shakespeare’s Bible) and King James is wonderful.

That said: KJV—Thou shall not kill. NIV: You shall not murder. (What have been the consequences of the KJV?)

But listen, too, how sweet the Wycliffe is:

(From Luke 2)
7 And she bare her firstborn son, and wrapped him in `clothes, and put him in a cratch, for there was no place to him in no chamber.

8 And shepherds were in the same country, waking and keeping the watches of the night upon their flock.

9 And lo! the angel of the Lord stood beside them, and the clearness of God shone about them; and they dreaded with great dread.

10 And the angel said to them, Do not ye dread; for lo! soothly I evangelize to you a great joy, that shall be to all people.

And speaking of music, there are all the gorgeous choral settings in Latin (the Vulgate), such as Vivaldi’s Beatus Vir:

(“In Memoria Aeterna”)

Blessings.
Check out my changed doctrine list in my post here.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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And one making the scholar or oneself the authority over the Word of God can be a form idolatry because one is uplifting man’s thoughts over God’s Word. Will you change your view if I show you evidence that the KJV has the hand of God upon it? Will you change your view if I show you the false doctrines, the heretics, and deceptions in the modern Bible Movement? Well, if you like the idea of being in control of what God said and did not say in the Modern Critical Movement with no actual Bible you can hold in your hands, then I don’t think you would be open to change based on the facts.
If you COULD show me that, I would change my view

But you can’t You have tied as have many before you and utterly failed..

Modern bible? You think that will excuse people?? There are false doctrines using the KJV,, it does not matter what bible you use
 

Christian Soldier

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I'm not a "KJV Only" person, but there are reasons to still use the KJV with confidence.

One, it is keyed to the Strong's numbering system for one, so it is a good starting point for study.

Two, it was translated before the modern culture wars of today which introduced bias on homosexuality & abortion.

Three, I've found a foreign friend who seems perfectly able to read the KJV with as much understanding as most Americans.

Four, using the 1828 Webster's English Dictionary, it is closer to the time frame of the KJV translation, and the 1828 includes references to the KJV in its definitions. So, definitions are of no problem.

Five, the scholarship of the KJV translators was first class and the following gives some information to consider about the KJV:

"Not since the Septuagint—the Greek-language version of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) produced between the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BCE—had a translation of the Bible been undertaken under royal sponsorship as a cooperative venture on so grandiose a scale. An elaborate set of rules was contrived to curb individual proclivities and to ensure the translation’s scholarly and nonpartisan character." King James Version (KJV) | Bible, History, & Background

"The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)" King James Bible Translators

Read biographies of the KJV translators -

"The 1611 KJV contained thousands of marginal notes. And this despite the King’s order against ideologically motivated marginal notes (since he hated the ones in the Geneva that questioned the authority of the monarchy)." The Five Types Of Marginal Notes In The King James Bible

Having written the preceding, I still believe the RV/ASV to be the most accurate, unbiased translations for detailed study in the English. Yet, I also use the standard translations in the Tynedale-NRSVue lineage to get a broad spectrum of scholarship. I avoid the translations of the last 50 years that are translated with a view of presenting a particular theological viewpoint, conservative evangelical. I appreciate the NRSV and the Updated Edition for the academic approach, so it specifically seeks the correct translation apart from theological viewpoints. Many object to those translations because they are translated without reading the NT back into the OT in their translation.
I agree most of the recent translations are not faithful translations of the original texts and they do place more importance on "political correctness", then the preservation of the original message.

My personal preference is NKJV and ESV, because I don't need to have a dictionary on hand when studying these translations.

There are still some faithful and reliable versions available today, but the majority have been corrupted and watered down to make them palatable for the progressive new age Church goers.