The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[marks]

There is no gradual sanctification.

Paul wrote that being baptized into Christ means we've died with Him, and are freed from sin, and therefore we are admonished to actually think of ourselves as dead to sin and alive to God, and to not yield ourselves to sin.

Much like John . . . I write these things that you sin not. And if any do sin, Jesus is our Advocate.

I'm believing these things. They are straight from the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Paul wrote that being baptized into Christ means we've died with Him, and are freed from sin, and therefore we are admonished to actually think of ourselves as dead to sin and alive to God, and to not yield ourselves to sin.

Much like John . . . I write these things that you sin not. And if any do sin, Jesus is our Advocate.

I'm believing these things. They are straight from the Bible.

Much love!

Show her the grammar that points to progressive sanctification brother-she believe it's instantaneous, not the Present Tense.

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm not denying that there is a process to it and an ongoing sense of maintaining it through faith in the keeping of the Holy Spirit.But there is a point, usually due to a crisis, where we are shown how to overcome the flesh even in the thoughts by the power of God Almighty.

I don't know how you can think that God can not make this possible for a man to be without sin when that was the way He made us. So many scriptures and analogies therein speak of it.

 

[marks]

Show her the grammar that points to progressive sanctification brother-she believe it's instantaneous, not the Present Tense.

I've come to understand that @Hepzibah considers being born again something that happens once you've reached a place of submission to God that He then gives you rebirth, and you no longer sin, if I'm understanding correctly. Hepzibah, please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is such a different foundation, we will remain in a disagreement over this. I've posted passages which show that rebirth - being crucified with Christ - does not in fact mean we no longer sin.

Just this one difference shows me how differently she and I read and interpret the Bible. So I'm thinking to leave it alone. I've given the material, and I think I need to leave it with the Lord.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't know how you can think that God can not make this possible for a man to be without sin

If you are writing this to me, well, I don't think that way.

there is a point, usually due to a crisis,

I've known a number of these crises, each with it's God given result as He continues His work on me. Maybe for some people it's that simple, I'd like to think so for their sakes. I've known quite a few people who don't seem to have had all the hardships in their lives, and yet seem to live very godly lives.

where we are shown how to overcome the flesh

Personally I see this spelled out in the Bible, and see more and more of it in my life.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I've come to understand that @Hepzibah considers being born again something that happens once you've reached a place of submission to God that He then gives you rebirth, and you no longer sin, if I'm understanding correctly. Hepzibah, please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is such a different foundation, we will remain in a disagreement over this. I've posted passages which show that rebirth - being crucified with Christ - does not in fact mean we no longer sin.

Just this one difference shows me how differently she and I read and interpret the Bible. So I'm thinking to leave it alone. I've given the material, and I think I need to leave it with the Lord.

Much love!

You are correct marks, l believe that being born again is a new creation. A person redeemed who walks as Christ walks.

The foundation, as you rightly say, is entirely different and not one that stands to reasoning in the interpretation of scripture.

I know all of the scriptures and verb conjugations that are used to oppose and l used myself so l cannot backtrack having partaken of the heavenly gift.

I wish you well brother.

 

[marks]

You are correct marks, l believe that being born again is a new creation. A person redeemed who walks as Christ walks.

The foundation, as you rightly say, is entirely different and not one that stands to reasoning in the interpretation of scripture.

I know all of the scriptures and verb conjugations that are used to oppose and l used myself so l cannot backtrack having partaken of the heavenly gift.

I wish you well brother.

And I you, my sister in the Lord!

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Who is them Taken?

 

[Taken]

Who is them Taken?

Those…”IN” Christ!

 

[face2face]

Those…”IN” Christ!

Do you know who they are?
What is required to be in Christ?
What is required to remain in Christ?
Will all those who believe in OSAS be saved?
F2F

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks I thank you for this conversation because I had never heard of the interpretation of Romans 7 you have laid out. I believe it is a new invasion of the church of a doctrine that would have been recognized as a new kind of Gnosticism and kept out previously. So many new errors these last 100 years.

It saddens me particularly that it has captured a fellow survivor of childhood trauma, knowing the extent of your suffering and the enormous work you have done in recovery.

I can only encourage you to keep on testing it by trying to keep an open mind when reading scripture. I know you said that it has already been a change of interpretation for you, but please ask yourself why. Our human minds aided by the enemy loves anything that takes away any judgement on ourselves, and this one I am sure, brings a great relief. More obedience is the way of God. And why did the apostle Paul say that he keeps his body under so that he will not be shipwrecked?

God bless.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The doctrine we have been looking at - entire sanctification, and whether it is possible for man to be without sin in this life, was taught in the early church and called Theosis or Deification, and has been found in the west during the revival years and especially during the time of the Wesley's. The early church said that it occurs in three stages, but in the west, two stages generally though sometimes three, but it is not worth getting into disputes about it until the whole concept of holiness is understood.

This however requires that a person is seeking to know the truth rather than just having idle curiosity, and is willing to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal that it is truth, directly. It cannot come through human reasoning which gets in the way. I am greatly encouraged to see on this forum, signs that He is at work and has been giving revelations, on this most unusual forum, where this subject can be discussed freely.

After many years of reading, I know that nearly all or all other forums will stop the discussion out right so thank you @Wynona for this opportunity.


"These are the states of beginners, the state of progress, and the state of the perfect.
the Pseudo-Dionysius into the "purgative way", the "illuminative way", and the "unitive way".

These consolations are often withdrawn, and a state of desolation ensues, and then the passive purification of the senses begins.

So ultimately purification, illumination, deification—it’s not the pursuit of enlightenment; it’s the pursuit of love: the love of God. It is the pursuit of a spiritual marriage, loving and receiving love. It is the marriage-feast, love being the wine that’s set forth on God’s table. In the deified man, it’s the man who is bathed in the light of God’s love to the point that it radiates from him. St. Isaac of Syria says:

God’s love is by its nature warmth. When it lights on someone without any limit, it plunges his soul into ecstasy. That is why the heart of one who has felt it cannot bear to be deprived of it, but he gradually undergoes a strange alteration in proportion to the love that enters into him. These are the signs of that love: His face becomes inflamed with joy, and his body is filled with warmth. Fear and shame desert him as if he had gone outside of himself.


This is the description of the Paul who says, “I know a man who was caught up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know.” httphttps://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/orthodox_spirituality/our_fulfillment_in_christ

Deification in the Early Church

In the introduction to The Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers by J. B. Galloway(Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2014), we read: “If the teachings of the modern holiness movement are correct concerning the doctrine of holiness and the baptism with the Holy Ghost as an experience for the saints of God today, perfecting them in Christian love and freeing them form carnal sin, it seems that we should find some evidences of this faith and teachings in the period of the history of the Church where it was the closest to the days of Christ”

“The commentator Adam Clarke objected that the opinion that Paul was speaking of a regenerate person ‘has most pitifully and most shamefully lowered the Standard of Christianity, and even destroyed its influence and disgraced its character.’ A.H. Francke and J. Bengel (and, a little later, John Wesley, and, later still Moses Stuart) were among those who thought that Paul was describing a man who was under conviction of sin, but not yet regenerate. “ Rom 7:24 – Who is the ‘wretched man’? – Walking With Giants

In his celebrated book Holiness, Ryle writes: ‘I am quite satisfied that it does not describe the experience of an unconverted man, or of a young and unestablished Christian; but of an old experienced saint in close communion with God. None but such a man could say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. 7:22).’

The analysis of Christian development into these three ‘ways’ or phases derives from Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite, who ascribed a rhythm of purification, illumination, and union (or perfection) both to the hierarchies of angels and to the Church on earth. Medieval W. interpreters of Dionysius turned his scheme into an account of spiritual progress in terms of the three ways, beginning with the eradication of bad habits and the cultivation of the virtues, moving on to the illumination of the mind by meditation and contemplation, and culminating in unitive love. These three ways were adopted by later writers such as St John of the Cross and so became classic in systematic theories of Christian spirituality. purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways

St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are. "Our Purpose Our Passions - Purification, Illumination, Deification: Orthodox Spirituality | Ancient Faith Ministries

This is a topic I'm fond of as an Eastern Christian. Strangely enough, I often cite a Lutheran video to introduce it to outsiders because I have found various websites and YouTube videos put out by Eastern Orthodox wanting, and the Lutheran pastor and theologian does a great job at making a primer like video describing the basic concept from the Bible, the Eastern Orthodox view, as well as his "Christofication" view.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Pavel Mosko

Thanks for that. However, he is just agreeing with the Protestant theological concept of sanctification which todays Orthodox have no problem with. That is to say - gradual sanctification. I suppose it helps refute the wrong ideas of some who think it is sharing God's essence which of course it is not.

Tell me please, what do you know of the traditional view of Via Triplex, the term of which found its way into the RCC?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Tell me please, what do you know of the traditional view of Via Triplex, the term of which found its way into the RCC?

If the RCC adopted it... you can be assured it's false doctrine.

 

[Hepzibah]

If the RCC adopted it... you can be assured it's false doctrine.

They also believe in the Trinity. Not supporting them, just saying.

 

[marks]

@marks I thank you for this conversation because I had never heard of the interpretation of Romans 7 you have laid out.

If you were open to the idea I can show you many Scriptures with show this same thing. You can see it yourself by wordsearching flesh and body throughout the NT, to see all the places sin is connected to our flesh bodies. Flesh that is corrupted by sin.

Medical science describes this. The Bible teaches it. I live it. My interpretation of the passage follows the wording exactly, and I'm not the only person to come to these ideas. I think lots of people have gotten used to reading the Bible as though the words were as loose as their thoughts (not you, I know you are serious about this), but it's like they are thinking Paul was just using spiritual sounding language, but I think God meant exactly what He said through Paul's words.

I believe it is a new invasion of the church of a doctrine that would have been recognized as a new kind of Gnosticism and kept out previously. So many new errors these last 100 years.

I don't see that at all. And I'll say again . . . I see this from my own reading and examination of the passage. I hold very tightly to the wording, I'm simply into truth, and this is what the passage says.

There's a reason why I asked, "what changed?" for Paul. Unless you understand this passage the way I am explaining it, you cannot answer that question remaining true to the simple wording of those verses. It is no more I, but sin that lives in me. If you take each of these parts as really true,

It was me, and now it's not. Instead of being me, like it was, now, it's sin that lives in me. That is . . . in my flesh.

Let's take "flesh" for a moment. I say its the stuff our bodies are made from. What else could it mean? Our body of sin . . . either we take it literally or metaphorically, but why metaphor when there is no literary reason to do so? And considering the harmony between all the passages?

It saddens me particularly that it has captured a fellow survivor of childhood trauma, knowing the extent of your suffering and the enormous work you have done in recovery.

I can only encourage you to keep on testing it by trying to keep an open mind when reading scripture. I know you said that it has already been a change of interpretation for you, but please ask yourself why. Our human minds aided by the enemy loves anything that takes away any judgement on ourselves, and this one I am sure, brings a great relief. More obedience is the way of God. And why did the apostle Paul say that he keeps his body under so that he will not be shipwrecked?

God bless.

This has been key in my recovery.

Do you understand that we both are seeking the same thing, and that we both believe it's possible, because we both have had a taste? A fully sanctified life, at least as much as we can know, having a clean conscience, and no awareness of sin?

And the relief I find in this passage is in understanding that I'm not corrupted though my flesh is, and in dividing between soul and spirit is at the heart of overcoming sin. Faith in God to empower my spirit to overcome the fleshiness of my soul (psuche) is a reachable thing. While I always desire to be completely free from any fleshiness, I find the path toward that isn't just waiting for God to give me something I don't have right now, but it's trusting that what He told me is true, and that He's already given me what I need.

And I find that it grows more and more in my life, as I'm looking for the fulness of day.

Much love!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

They also believe in the Trinity. Not supporting them, just saying.

Yeah well even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while... just sayin

 

[Hepzibah]

Yeah well even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while... just sayin

Now come on Dan, they are very wrong on some things but they are right on quite a bit.

Those who promoted RCC spirituality has always had a hard time. Like St John of the Cross. He believed in the later Protestant version of second blessing holiness, but had a very hard time with his seniors and came close to excommunication from what I understand. Via Triplex was of course the Latin version of Theosis but with the same idea as Orthodox spirituality.

 

[marks]

I know you said that it has already been a change of interpretation for you

I don't recall this. For a long time I never really understood this passage. One evening I believe the Holy Spirit led me through the passage with understanding. And since then, the more I dig into it, the more this shows true.

Our human minds aided by the enemy loves anything that takes away any judgement on ourselves, and this one I am sure, brings a great relief. More obedience is the way of God.

I suppose that's the common idea, "we feel free to sin without fear". That's not me, not in the slightest! I'm not waiting for Theosis to come from God, and until then I can't help it. I've already been given what I need, and I need to use it. That's on me.

And why did the apostle Paul say that he keeps his body under so that he will not be shipwrecked?

Not shipwrecked, but lest he be rejected. But the context is his reward for the race, not his salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Much love!