A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Aunty Jane]

As far as the KJV is concerned, tey have indicated where YHWH occurs by using LORD and GOD.

So why just four times out of thousands?

Isa 42:8….Tanakh….

8 I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.

חאֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה ה֣וּא שְׁמִ֑י וּכְבוֹדִי֙ לְאַחֵ֣ר לֹֽא־אֶתֵּ֔ן וּתְהִלָּתִ֖י לַפְּסִילִֽים:

“I am Jehovah/Yahweh, that is my name“…is how it should read…

KJV…
”I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
It follows the Jewish tradition of failing to recognize the name of Jehovah/Yahweh.
If one had to put the divine name forward, why not that verse? God’s name is not “the LORD”….

Exodus 3: 15 too is a strange omission….In the Hebrew, God’s name is in plain sight….
Jewish Tanakh…

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”

טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

KJV….
“15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

If ever there were verses that invited the Tetragrammaton….those two should have been chosen…..can there be a reason why only four times we see any attempt to make God’s name known in the KJV?

As far as Bibles are concerned I read from the RV/KJV Interlinear, both at home and at our meeting. I also have next to me a NASB Study Bible at our meetings for quicker reference, and this also contains a Lexicon for major words and Strongs. On my computer I run Logos8 Bible Program and have purchased many translations. The function "Power Lookup" will give the translation of a particular verse in every Bible that is loaded. Do you almost exclusively use the NWT?

I use a variety of Bibles myself because I like to do research and analyze various passages so that I get a variety of renderings and can cross check with the concordance and see how a word is rendered in English, taking into account the phrasing as well, which can be quite different to English phrasing.
I have found the NWT to be superior to any other translation because the divine name is retained in all the places where it was substituted, and trinitarian bias is omitted when the translation is true to the meaning of the original language.
Our online Bible is updated regularly with added information as it comes to light.

I am encouraged by this, commendable.

Who told you otherwise? We deal with the misunderstanding of others on a regular basis, so nothing really surprises us any more. I imagine that Jesus and his apostles had to deal with the same problem….he actually warned them that there would be those who told outright lies about them….(Matt 5:11-12) but not to fear because God knows the truth and those who deliberately mislead others by telling half truths and employing slander are showing themselves to be the ones who are misled.

Did you notice the two different vowel ponts on the YHWH Name?

You are avoiding the issue again.

For us there is no issue…..it’s all yours.

The JW literature also applies the translation "cautious" instead of the correct translation "subtil" or "crafty".

I showed you Strongs definition and there are several meanings…not just those two. “Cautious” is not out of the definition’s spectrum at all.

In our meeting we have much ebb and flow of people and ideas. My impression is that the JWs must conform to what is dictated by the GB, and any change is eventually allowed and conveniently claimed to be "new light"

In the light of what Paul wrote at 1 Cor 1:10, there is no room for ebb and flow of people or ideas….all must be in agreement, and there is to be one authority who determines the teachings of the entire group, as it was in original Christianity. Agreeing to disagree is not the Christian way…all must be on the same page…if not then God’s spirit is not guiding you.
Does your church have a name? Bible Students, perhaps?

The main JW emphasis is preaching, while our main emphasis is the care and spiritual growth of our members.

We take care of both….it’s not a case of choosing one over the other. The preaching work was a command, not an option. Loving our brothers and promoting spiritual growth was also not optional.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We partake of the emblems every week, while only once a year most JWs pass the emblems along the row and do not partake as they consider they are not part of the 144.000.

Since only the 144,000 are parties to the new covenant, we who do not have “the heavenly calling” are the beneficiaries. Those who will rule us from heaven are God’s choice, not ours.
You cannot volunteer to be a “saint”…..that is God’s choice.

My particular meeting also conducts weekly public seminars, advertised in the local newspaper and available by streaming on you-tube. A number of our members are involved in preaching in other countries and give support to the many meetings in other countries.

What did your people do before the internet? How did you preach? And more importantly, what did you preach about God’s Kingdom?
Jehovah’s Witnesses take their example from the first Christians who were sent out by Jesus…

Matt 10,11-15…..
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah+ on Judgment Day than for that city.”

This is an obligation and one we take very seriously. It has required adaptation over time as the devil managed to get people slaving at work to pay for houses they only ate and slept in. The cost of living requires two incomes or more depending on where you live. So public witnessing was adopted, even though our house to house work is still our primary method. We go where people are….these days they are on the internet…..but we are well into the time of the end now, with a long history of our door to door preaching….

When a disaster is impending, Emergency Services will go door to door searching for those who may not be tuned into a TV or other device so as to hear public announcements….we look upon those in the world as needing the same kind of consideration….so no one is missed with the good news.…that all the woes of this world are soon to “pass away”. (Rev 21:2-4)

The “disaster” that is impending will affect those in every nation on earth, sweeping away all wickedness….the Bible says it will come with little warning, so Jesus told us to be prepared. (Matt 24:43-44) We believe we are….

What about you?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

I use a variety of Bibles myself because I like to do research and analyze various passages so that I get a variety of renderings and can cross check with the concordance and see how a word is rendered in English, taking into account the phrasing as well, which can be quite different to English phrasing.
I have found the NWT to be superior to any other translation because the divine name is retained in all the places where it was substituted, and trinitarian bias is omitted when the translation is true to the meaning of the original language.
Our online Bible is updated regularly with added information as it comes to light.

It is too late at night in Eastern Australia for me to answer or discuss with you in detail. I would like to let you know that although I had a copy of the KJV which I used, both at home, and at Sunday School, the first Bible that I actually purchased was the green NWT. We had a visit by a JW and his son about 16, and a slightly older JW who was more reserved. We mainly discussed Israel, and the young JW had presented a paper at the local JWs on the concept that Israel no longer had a part in God's Plan, or something similar, while I mentioned that I believed that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land was a prelude to the return of Jesus and the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel.

I spoke to the older gentleman for a short time afterwards, and he gave me the address where I could purchase a NWT. I lived in western Bexley, near the golf course, and I walked to a home in Bexley North where a lady and her mother were able to sell me a NWT. I now reside in Lake Macquarie area, adjacent Newcastle. I was also 16 at the time, and now 80 y.o. I have had many good discussions with JWs over the years including a few workmates. I have also a black NWT and a NWT interlinear NT. I would rarely consult any of these and I store them in my JW "box" with a large array of other JW material. I am the Librarian for our meeting, but also have hoarded a large collection of books and other material.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

We had a visit by a JW and his son about 16, and a slightly older JW who was more reserved. We mainly discussed Israel, and the young JW had presented a paper at the local JWs on the concept that Israel no longer had a part in God's Plan, or something similar, while I mentioned that I believed that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land was a prelude to the return of Jesus and the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel.

Israel is an interesting subject as many see the Bible’s reference to “Israel“ as strictly literal…..we see “the Israel of God” spoken about by the apostle Paul (Gal 6:16) as figurative. Why do we believe this? Because Israel today is not a place of peace or true worship, but instead a place fought over by rival “Abrahamic“ faiths. Paul introduced a new “Israel”…..not one by birth, but by adoption. The “Israel of God” that he spoke about included gentiles as well as fleshly Jews.
Paul also wrote….
Rom 2:28-29…
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

We see in the history of Israel only a few who demonstrated the faith of Abraham who received the promise recorded in Gen 22:18. “All nations” were to be blessed by the seed of Abraham….”the Christ”.

Romans 4:16…
”That is why it is through faith, so that it might be according to undeserved kindness, in order for the promise to be sure to all his offspring, not only to those who adhere to the Law but also to those who adhere to the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.”

As Paul was an “apostle to the nations”, the gentiles were to be included in God’s promise to Abraham, but the Jews failed to appreciate what had been written about Abraham’s offspring.

John the Baptist declared to the Pharisees….
”…..“You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7-10)
The axe fell when Israel executed their own Messiah. God cast them off. (Matt 23:37-39)

So being “Jewish” by birth was not going to save Israel…only those who demonstrated a faith like their forefather Abraham would receive salvation. Throughout their history, Israel were rebellious and disobedient. Because they broke their covenant with Jehovah many times, he could have cast them off much earlier, but his purpose in connection with them gave his Messiah the necessary credentials to identify him. He gave Israel first option to become Christ’s disciples, so all of the first Christians were Jews, but as Jesus filled Jerusalem with his teachings, a divide appeared and forced the people to make choices. Those who stuck with Jesus and his apostles made a clear cut separation from those corrupted Jews, and by their conduct showed that they had the faith of Abraham…..when gentiles were added, they too inherited the promises…..but fleshly Israel was cast off as the serial covenant breakers that they had always proven themselves to be. Instead of heeding God’s prophets, they silenced them, just as they did Jesus. (Matt 23: 37)

When Jesus sat by a well and conversed with a Samaritan woman there, (John 4:19-24) he clearly stated that no geographical location would ever again be the center of God’s worship. The so called “Holy Land” had been invaded by pagan world powers centuries earlier, and its subjects oppressed by them……it was no longer “holy” to God because of the bloodshed that took place there.

Jesus foretold that the Temple would be destroyed and in 70C.E, the Romans besieged the city and ultimately destroyed it along with its Temple…..many wonder why it has never been rebuilt…but to Christians it is clear…..it was the place for the sacrifice of animals to atone for the sins of Israel…..but Christ had offered his perpetual sacrifice, so there was no longer a need for an earthly Temple, or an earthly priesthood. Since the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and hence failed to apply the value of his ransom, they remain in their sins with no way to atone for them. It has created a necessity to make excuses for that since then. But they have no excuse.

Jesus roundly condemned the Jewish leadership to “Gehenna“…and so all who followed their lead were condemned with them……Jesus said…
”Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . .
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.” (Matt 23:13-15)

So any notion that the fleshly Jewish nation will have a last minute change of heart is unfounded.
Jehovah chose a new “Israel”….”adopted” as sons because they accepted Jesus as their savior and demonstrated the faith of Abraham. (Gal 3:28-29)
Rom 9:6-8….
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

This is spiritual “Israel”.…not fleshly Israel. There is no impediment though for fleshly Jews to accept Christ on an individual basis, as they did in Jesus’ day. The opportunity is open to all….

 

[Jack]

Please read my replies. I will write thoughtful answers that will actually address the things you say. You keep replying by repeating the very same things that I already gave answers to by using Scripture. I suggest you review post #1886 and #2078.

Yeah, I keep quoting Jesus!

 

[Aunty Jane]

now 80 y.o. I have had many good discussions with JWs over the years including a few workmates. I have also a black NWT and a NWT interlinear NT. I would rarely consult any of these and I store them in my JW "box" with a large array of other JW material. I am the Librarian for our meeting, but also have hoarded a large collection of books and other material.

I am close to your age, but I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in my early twenties. You have an interesting history with us, but it seems as if you misunderstood much of what was told to you…..or perhaps you didn’t want to accept what you heard?
Perhaps your “box” should include our JW website so that you can avail yourself of the current information that has accrued since you closed “the box”.

There is so much more to know, now that we are deep into the time of the end…..Jehovah has prepared his people for what is coming and as an international brotherhood, we all accept the same teachings and are on the same page in all things…..preaching the same message in all nations…..our unity is rather unique as is our resolve to keep obeying the Christ in all his teachings….not just the convenient ones.

You did not tell me what your denomination is called…..

 

[PS95]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

It is too late at night in Eastern Australia for me to answer or discuss with you in detail. I would like to let you know that although I had a copy of the KJV which I used, both at home, and at Sunday School, the first Bible that I actually purchased was the green NWT. We had a visit by a JW and his son about 16, and a slightly older JW who was more reserved. We mainly discussed Israel, and the young JW had presented a paper at the local JWs on the concept that Israel no longer had a part in God's Plan, or something similar, while I mentioned that I believed that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land was a prelude to the return of Jesus and the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel.

I spoke to the older gentleman for a short time afterwards, and he gave me the address where I could purchase a NWT. I lived in western Bexley, near the golf course, and I walked to a home in Bexley North where a lady and her mother were able to sell me a NWT. I now reside in Lake Macquarie area, adjacent Newcastle. I was also 16 at the time, and now 80 y.o. I have had many good discussions with JWs over the years including a few workmates. I have also a black NWT and a NWT interlinear NT. I would rarely consult any of these and I store them in my JW "box" with a large array of other JW material. I am the Librarian for our meeting, but also have hoarded a large collection of books and other material.

Kind regards
Trevor

What Jws teach is that they are "spiritual israel" now. their 144k.
they believe that when Jesus said, "your house has abandoned you" that Israel is no more in God's plan. Paul's writings seem to be of no avail to them.
I recall you from carm. christadelphian, right?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings PS95 and Greetings again Aunty Jane,

What Jws teach is that they are "spiritual israel" now. their 144k.

This is relatively valid, in that the faithful are now Spiritual Israel, but I find the JW 144,000 distinction strange, as I consider ALL of the faithful are Spiritual Israel.

they believe that when Jesus said, "your house has abandoned you" that Israel is no more in God's plan. Paul's writings seem to be of no avail to them.

If you are alluding to Romans 11, the conversion of natural Israel at the return of Christ, then I would agree with you. The JWs do not agree with this teaching.

You did not tell me what your denomination is called…..

I recall you from carm. christadelphian, right?

Yes. I cannot access CARM these days as it comes up with a fault. Maybe it is my old computer or old browser. They have somehow wiped out all the Christadelphian sub-forum details including many of my posts. Some of my posts in other sub-forums are still available. I hope to respond to the rest of Aunty Jane's posts this afternoon ES Australian time.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

We mainly discussed Israel, and the young JW had presented a paper at the local JWs on the concept that Israel no longer had a part in God's Plan, or something similar, while I mentioned that I believed that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land was a prelude to the return of Jesus and the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel.

The return of the Jews to the holy land literally, was not what the Christian Scriptures indicated. Why did God allow their land to be conquered in the first place?

As the Bible shows….spiritual Israel inherit the Kingdom as “kings and priests”, chosen by God for a specific role in ruling with Christ over redeemed earthly subjects. (Rev 20:6) This rule of 1000 years will bring about a restoration of God’s first purpose for humankind. He did not create us for life in heaven, but for everlasting mortal life right here in paradise on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)
Choosing some humans from earth to be our rulers and priests was a concession from God as only humans know what living with sin has done to them…..they will need compassion and patient understanding as they begin the journey back to sinless perfection. How many understand that this is what the Kingdom is for…?

Fleshly Israel had the opportunity to become Jehovah God’s “priesthood and a holy nation”….but they rejected their king.
Just as the priesthood was restricted in Israel, so it is restricted to those of God’s choosing in the Christian Era. Not all have “the heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1) If all had “the heavenly calling” there would be no need to mention this aspect of their Christian service. (1 Cor 1:2-3)

This is relatively valid, in that the faithful are now Spiritual Israel, but I find the JW 144,000 distinction strange, as I consider ALL of the faithful are Spiritual Israel.

Not all are “called” to be in the priesthood that will guide mankind back into reconciliation with God. That would mean all kings and no subjects….all priests and no one to lead in worship. “All Chiefs and no Indians” as they used to say.
In the Revelation, John sees two groups attributing their salvation to God and the Lamb…..the first group are seen with Christ in heaven, but the second group are said to “come out of the great tribulation”….they are survivors of these last days on the earth. (Rev 7:4; 9-10; 13-14)…already separated out because of obeying the command in Rev 18:4-5; 23-24…

If you are alluding to Romans 11, the conversion of natural Israel at the return of Christ, then I would agree with you. The JWs do not agree with this teaching.

We do not agree because of what was explained in post #2184 above. Spiritual Israel (the Israel of God mentioned by Paul) is not describing fleshly Jews, though individually they can be accepted if they repent and come to Jesus as their savior. It’s been almost 2,000 years and still they deny him.

. I hope to respond to the rest of Aunty Jane's posts this afternoon ES Australian time.

Fire away…..I am happy to respond to any genuine questions, or points of disagreement, rather than defend against apostates and their twisted and hate filled half truths. Jehovah knows who belongs to him and who doesn’t….
We can let Jesus be our judge.

 

[PS95]

Fire away…..I am happy to respond to any genuine questions, or points of disagreement, rather than defend against apostates and their twisted and hate filled half truths. Jehovah knows who belongs to him and who doesn’t….
We can let Jesus be our judge.

Jane, that is not fair. You decided to shun me when I said that I never baptized as JW but my family still shuns me.
You said you were going to join them and I should mend my own boo boos. You have shunned me since. You dont have to like what I post. Although, I have not posted falsehoods. I dont like what you post about Christians. Isnt that how these boards work?
If you still dont want to deal with me that's ok, I forgive you, but I wish you would.
But don't tell others that I am a liar and an apostate. I never belonged and I never will.
Why? see below--

@TrevorHL - Help me to help Auntie Jane understand this, please?
see below--

I want you to understand that Jesus' death was indeed payment for your sins. "Wages of sin is death" does not mean that when you die your sins are paid for before God. It means, the punishment of death is what those NOT IN CHRIST deserve. You guys are taking Romans 6:7 out of it's context! And then pairing it with HALF of verse 23 to come up with that false teaching. It's downright frightening to think that anyone believes that.
Please go over these verses with me? I could not get Keiw to read with me. If you do, maybe you can help him? This is a terrible Watchtower error.

Look. please?
Romans 6:7 & 23-- in context--

Romans 6:1-10 , 22-23
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I think that's enough to show the proper context, so JWs can see that
Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!

As you continue reading the chapter to the end you will come to verses 22- 23. This is where you guys grab a half of a verse and join it with Ro 6:7 which reults in a very serious false teaching. Read slowly.

22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A wage is what a person is owed, what they deserve, they are being paid. Paid their wages. That is what those who are NOT baptized into Christ's death etc, will receive from God. It is their pay. He pays them their due wage. They get what they deserve. They are punished with death.

JWs teach that we pay God with our physical death to gain forgiveness. NO NO. No. That is impossible. The payment is Christ. He paid. We can't. We have all sinned. Jesus is the ONLY way. We have nothing to offer Jehovah, but Christ- ONLY He is the free gift of life.
Jane, Jesus gave his life to pay your sin debt and mine. He died for your sins too.
We HAVE to believe that or we are still in sins, and not believing God at all. It is by FAITH.
We all die, then comes the judgement. You cant pay back God with your death to have sins forgiven. It's crazy!!!

let's keep going.. "BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
here we see that we dont get what we deserve, but we get what we dont deserve- the FREE GIFT OF LIFE.
That life is found only in Christ.
The two parts of the sentence v23- oppose one another. One is sin and death and payment. The second half is forgiveness, and life and a free gift.
We either get death or life. sin or Christ. there is no other way.

I would only ask that you at least consider what I am showing you here, Aunty . I am not twisting anything. The rest of the bible agrees!
Jane- just prayerfully consider it. Ask Jehovah to allow you to see this. it really matters. We all need Christ in this way.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane, (part 1)

If ever there were verses that invited the Tetragrammaton….those two should have been chosen…..can there be a reason why only four times we see any attempt to make God’s name known in the KJV?

There is quite a lot for me to catch up with. I will try to be brief. I can accept what the KJV translators did. My view is that it is important to understand the Yahweh Name first, partly out of reserve and reverence for the Holiness of God's Name.

I have found the NWT to be superior to any other translation because the divine name is retained in all the places where it was substituted, and trinitarian bias is omitted when the translation is true to the meaning of the original language.
Our online Bible is updated regularly with added information as it comes to light.

There may be some benefit in the NWT, but I am not sure if it is accurate in some places. I received a wide margin Oxford Bible when I was 21 y.o. and used this for many years. Then I added the NASB Study Bible. My sister gave me the RV/KJV Interlinear Bible from my mother's estate. Possibly this was a family tradition as evidently my grandmother's favourite Bible was the RV/KJV Interlinear back in the 1930s. She died before I was born.

For us there is no issue…..it’s all yours.

Yahweh has been used in our community since at least 1858 when John Thomas expounded this subject. He reported his talks in his magazine and later issued his book Phanerosis. I have added a thread "The Yahweh Name" and this gives some assessment of my understanding of this subject. I was instructed on this subject at a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands by one of our Youth Leaders. This awakened my lifetime interest in this subject. I was 19 y.o. and this was also the start of my four year courtship of Joyce and we have been married now for 57 years, an excellent companion in all respects including the fact we share the same faith. The use of "Jehovah" is foreign to our community.

I showed you Strongs definition and there are several meanings…not just those two. “Cautious” is not out of the definition’s spectrum at all.

Except for the context and the doctrine.

In the light of what Paul wrote at 1 Cor 1:10, there is no room for ebb and flow of people or ideas….all must be in agreement, and there is to be one authority who determines the teachings of the entire group, as it was in original Christianity. Agreeing to disagree is not the Christian way…all must be on the same page…if not then God’s spirit is not guiding you.

I am not talking about essential doctrines, but many individuals prepare studies and present them to their own meeting or another. I could be wrong, but my impression is that each JW meeting follow what is issued from New York. Our meetings are autonomous, and each selects their own Bible subjects and speakers. We have eight meetings in our region, and each would have a different midweek Bible Class and speaker. No central authority except God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since only the 144,000 are parties to the new covenant, we who do not have “the heavenly calling” are the beneficiaries. Those who will rule us from heaven are God’s choice, not ours.
You cannot volunteer to be a “saint”…..that is God’s choice.

We have only one body, the faithful. All that are baptised partake of the emblems each week.

What did your people do before the internet? How did you preach? And more importantly, what did you preach about God’s Kingdom?
Jehovah’s Witnesses take their example from the first Christians who were sent out by Jesus…

We usually have four meetings each week, Sunday School, Memorial Meeting, Evening Lecture or Seminar and midweek Bible Class. The Evening Seminar is to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name for the benefit of the young people and interested friends. The addition of the Internet has enlarged the audience considerably.

The “disaster” that is impending will affect those in every nation on earth, sweeping away all wickedness….the Bible says it will come with little warning, so Jesus told us to be prepared. (Matt 24:43-44) We believe we are….
What about you?

Yes, we believe that we are very much in the End Times, and the world wide troubles, especially in the Middle East are some indication of this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane, (part 2)

So any notion that the fleshly Jewish nation will have a last minute change of heart is unfounded.

We believe that Jesus will convert a significant remnant of natural Israel when he returns and after the Battle of Armageddon, e.g. Ezekiel 38.

I am close to your age, but I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in my early twenties. You have an interesting history with us, but it seems as if you misunderstood much of what was told to you…..or perhaps you didn’t want to accept what you heard?

One of the main Scriptures that I suggest when a JW comes to the door are Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21. Most of the JWs leave soon after this. My impression is that if you do not accept what a JW states 100% then they will usually consider that you are not suitable and that they have done their job.

Perhaps your “box” should include our JW website so that you can avail yourself of the current information that has accrued since you closed “the box”.

I have not closed the box. It is a convenient way to access all my JW material. I have used the JW website, partly to get quick access to an electronic NWT, and partly researching a few topics.

There is so much more to know, now that we are deep into the time of the end…..Jehovah has prepared his people for what is coming and as an international brotherhood, we all accept the same teachings and are on the same page in all things…..preaching the same message in all nations…..our unity is rather unique as is our resolve to keep obeying the Christ in all his teachings….not just the convenient ones.

I can agree with much of this, but I would not like the rigid worldwide conformity. I like my environment. There are say four independent main magazines and there are many new books on various subjects and authors appearing. I have been looking forward to receiving the first of a three part commentary on Isaiah. This could well be the life's work of this independent scholar. The first volume is on Isaiah chapters 1-23 and the book has 377 pages and I have now read up to page 54 and found this very enlightening. Isaiah has been one of my favourite books and also the Psalms. I am a hoarder / collector of any mp3 talk, or mp4 video on these two Bible books, as well as many commentaries.

Fire away…..I am happy to respond to any genuine questions, or points of disagreement,
We can let Jesus be our judge.

I am not sure that we will make much progress, but I should be patient. We have both been locked into our environment for most of our lives. It has been nice to interact with you. I was sad to hear that the local JW, who I had the most contact with, passed away suddenly with a heart attack. He was very sincere. Another JW from work who helped me when I got myself into trouble at work, would now be very old, or passed off the scene. I enjoyed our conversations, but could not accept his last statement to me recommending the JW GB. At the time I did not know what he was talking about. I have learnt a bit more about the JWs since then.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

Yeah, I keep quoting Jesus!

Everything I have seen you quote is a misquote or doesn't account for context in 99% of the Bible. It's all starved of truth. You keep running like the devil from John 17:3. Why do you do that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

@TrevorHL thank you for taking the time to respond...I will be away at a convention this weekend in Sydney but will try to get back to you as soon as I have time.....it will be interesting to exchange notes and ideas as I really like to understand what motivates the beliefs that others hold, but are different to my own. Even if we get to understand one another better, something is accomplished and the readers here will have something to chew on, (if the dogs will stop trying to steal the bones)....
Till next time....
AJ

 

[TheHC]

…the faithful are now Spiritual Israel, but I find the JW 144,000 distinction strange, as I consider ALL of the faithful are Spiritual Israel.

Why?
At John 10:16, Jesus said: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

So we see two groups, Jesus spoke of, joining together, ie., becoming one.

Luke 12:32, Jesus said: “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.”

Are all Christians given “the Kingdom”? Only a little flock.

Would that be all Christians?

Notice how Matthew 25:31-45 reveals there are 3 groups… but only two of which have Christ’s and God’s favor.
In vs.40 Jesus states:
“In reply the King [Jesus] will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “
The sheep, here, are not Christ’s brothers, are they? No. The sheep do ‘good things to His brothers.’

Not everyone can be ‘a brother’ of Christ… these are the ones whom Paul in the Bible calls “heirs of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:17) Peter referred to these in 2 Peter 2:9 as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession….” He & Paul are included in this group.

Does this comprise all Christians?

Well, at Revelation 7:9 John informs us, “ I saw a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all tribes and tongues and peoples and nations.”
Vs.14 explains, “ These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.” Christians.

So this is a “great” number of Christians… not the “little” flock of Luke 12.

We can discuss what they are “chosen” for, if you’d like. It would actually reinforce why they are a “little flock.”


Best wishes, my cousin.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There may be some benefit in the NWT, but I am not sure if it is accurate in some places

Perhaps you can compare the NWT with other translations? I hear people make all kinds of complaints and yet when I consult Biblegateway and it’s many translations, along with Strongs Concordance, I see the NWT as the most accurate.

Perhaps you can compare the NWT with other translations? The use of "Jehovah" is foreign to our community.

I do often….and the use of “the Lord” is foreign in my community. God has a name and he told his people to use it in all their generations…..(Ex 3:15)

Except for the context and the doctrine.

Could you elaborate on those points…or perhaps you have done so in your other thread?
I have not had time to read it yet. Perhaps after my convention is over I will get time…

I am not talking about essential doctrines, but many individuals prepare studies and present them to their own meeting or another. I could be wrong, but my impression is that each JW meeting follow what is issued from New York.

We follow the first century model….where there was a governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and older men, who were the central teaching body for all the congregations of Christ’s disciples.
If doctrinal matters arose, these were the ones to resolve it. The circumcision issue was one of those occasions. (Acts ch 15).

Our meetings are autonomous, and each selects their own Bible subjects and speakers. We have eight meetings in our region, and each would have a different midweek Bible Class and speaker. No central authority except God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have five meetings each week….2 for training in the ministry, and 3 for Bible study.
All meetings are conducted and scheduled by our Governing Body, so that the global brotherhood all teach the same truths, and preach the same message…..what purpose would it serve if we all just rattled off our own thoughts and opinions? God’s spirit promotes unity….not disunity.

We have only one body, the faithful. All that are baptised partake of the emblems each week.

The “body of Christ” are the anointed…..those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) All our members are baptized but only the anointed are partakers as members belonging to Christ in a special way, hand picked by God for a heavenly assignment. These will make up “the new heavens” who will rule over “the new earth”, (2 Peter 3:13) where righteousness is to dwell.

We usually have four meetings each week, Sunday School, Memorial Meeting, Evening Lecture or Seminar and midweek Bible Class. The Evening Seminar is to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name for the benefit of the young people and interested friends. The addition of the Internet has enlarged the audience considerably.

The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom, was to continue right up to “the end”….we follow the lead of the first Christians who were sent out to the people….they did not sit in a building waiting for people to come to them….
Matt 10:11-14…
”Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

This is a search and rescue mission…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

We believe that Jesus will convert a significant remnant of natural Israel when he returns and after the Battle of Armageddon, e.g. Ezekiel 38.

We believe God no longer has a place for natural Israel because of their continued disobedience and rebellious attitude. God has cast them off and chosen a new Israel…..”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) these are not just fleshly Jews, but include gentiles.

One of the main Scriptures that I suggest when a JW comes to the door are Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21. Most of the JWs leave soon after this. My impression is that if you do not accept what a JW states 100% then they will usually consider that you are not suitable and that they have done their job.

I looked them up and can’t understand why any JW would balk at them.

In context, Acts 1:11 is the angels‘ telling Jesus’ disciples “the manner” of his return, after he had ascended into Heaven….
“After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

Acts 3:19-21…
”Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.”

This is telling us that Jesus would remain in heaven until it is time to restore God’s first purpose, prophesied through his prophets of old. David spoke of this as a waiting period. (Psalm 110:1-2)

Perhaps you can tell us why you think these verses would trouble us? And how you interpret them….?

But having said that, referring back to Matt 10:11-14, in a door to door, one on one setting, we are not to stay if its just to argue….a person’s response dictates whether we stay or leave, “shaking the dust off”. We are to move on to the next door. (Acts 20:20)
The internet provides a way for others to join in and listen to the conversation. So we sometimes stay and clarify points of disagreement.

I have not closed the box. It is a convenient way to access all my JW material. I have used the JW website, partly to get quick access to an electronic NWT, and partly researching a few topics.

Have you found the NWT to be easy to read and understand?

I can agree with much of this, but I would not like the rigid worldwide conformity. I like my environment. commentaries.

We don’t have that attitude…it’s more important to live up to 1 Cor 1:10….to ‘all be in agreement, with no divisions among us.’ There are not many versions of the truth…there has to be just one.

I am not sure that we will make much progress, but I should be patient. We have both been locked into our environment for most of our lives. It has been nice to interact with you. I was sad to hear that the local JW, who I had the most contact with, passed away suddenly with a heart attack. He was very sincere. Another JW from work who helped me when I got myself into trouble at work, would now be very old, or passed off the scene. I enjoyed our conversations, but could not accept his last statement to me recommending the JW GB. At the time I did not know what he was talking about. I have learnt a bit more about the JWs since then.

It is interesting to discuss disagreements and unpack Scripture a bit….delving into context and discovering more about the big picture……as long as we can keep it civil….no need for the nastiness we have seen from certain ones here who think they know so much, when they really know nothing much at all. They have an
opinion and so does everyone here……the truth is, we can’t all be right….Jesus will tell us if we are wrong.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings TheHC,

At John 10:16, Jesus said: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
So we see two groups, Jesus spoke of, joining together, ie., becoming one.

I understand that this is speaking about the fact that the Gospel would be preached and received by the Gentiles. The first sheep were the disciples among the Jews who Jesus was speaking to here.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rebuilder 454]

Only innocent blood is the remedy for sin.
No watchtowers are saved.

 

[PS95]

Why?
At John 10:16, Jesus said: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

So we see two groups, Jesus spoke of, joining together, ie., becoming one.

Luke 12:32, Jesus said: “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.”

Are all Christians given “the Kingdom”? Only a little flock.

Would that be all Christians?

Notice how Matthew 25:31-45 reveals there are 3 groups… but only two of which have Christ’s and God’s favor.
In vs.40 Jesus states:
“In reply the King [Jesus] will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “
The sheep, here, are not Christ’s brothers, are they? No. The sheep do ‘good things to His brothers.’

Not everyone can be ‘a brother’ of Christ… these are the ones whom Paul in the Bible calls “heirs of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:17) Peter referred to these in 2 Peter 2:9 as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession….” He & Paul are included in this group.

Does this comprise all Christians?

Well, at Revelation 7:9 John informs us, “ I saw a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all tribes and tongues and peoples and nations.”
Vs.14 explains, “ These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.” Christians.

So this is a “great” number of Christians… not the “little” flock of Luke 12.

We can discuss what they are “chosen” for, if you’d like. It would actually reinforce why they are a “little flock.”


Best wishes, my cousin.

other sheep are the Gentiles. it's not even a question.
plucking random verses out of their context is a very bad idea. always.