The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Armageddon is more than 150 days after the second coming. In fact, it will be 1 year before Jesus leaves with the armies of heaven after the second coming occurs.

Jesus's Second Coming is His return to this earth.

Armageddon is a gathering location in Israel, where the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus. That will be before Jesus's Second Coming.

In Revelation 19:11-21 is Jesus's Second Coming.

In Revelation 19:18-19 are the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Jesus.

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal.

It is not in the sixth seal event text.

We can tell that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes. He remains in the clouds. There is a harvest when He sends His angels to gather elect.

1290 days of the great tribulation are over when the sixth seal event takes place, the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

But not all of the great tribulation. The 7th vial of God's wrath, Revelation 16:17-21 is poured out on the earth, right before Jesus descends down to earth.

 

[WPM]

The verses do not prove that ALL that sleep in the ground will be raised at the same time. First many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. After this ALL of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

How is it that you do not understand these things?

Yes they do. Your fight is with the Scriptures. You cannot even see that a general resurrection/judgment is not even allowed in your teaching.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Jesus taught a singular time (or hour) that is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

 

[WPM]

The verses do not prove that ALL that sleep in the ground will be raised at the same time. First many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. After this ALL of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

How is it that you do not understand these things?

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

 

[WPM]

This not possible. Think Douggg. The signs of the sun, moon and stars occur at the sixth seal. The tribulation is over already. Do the words IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS sound familiar. This occurs at the sixth seal............the great tribulation is over before the sixth seal opens.

You chart is incorrect. The tribulation does not occur during the trumpets of Gods wrath. The tribulation is over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. You need to fix your chart so it agrees with scripture.

Pretribbers do not know what they believe.

 

[Douggg]

This not possible. Think Douggg. The signs of the sun, moon and stars occur at the sixth seal. The tribulation is over already. Do the words IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS sound familiar. This occurs at the sixth seal............the great tribulation is over before the sixth seal opens.

The first six seals on the book are presented in Revelation 6 because the events revealed when they were removed act in order.

The seventh seal is treated separate, and is not opened until Revelation 8, because it is not a continuation of the sixth seal event.

 

[WPM]

No. Whenever I post it just proves the garbage you are feeding people is malarkey. Such as the following that sent you into the bunker.


Yeah much, many, great is not ALL



Yeah much is not ALL



Yeah abounding in is not ALL

Yeah more numerous than is not all

Yeah abundant, enough is not ALL

Yeah great is not ALL

Yeah strong is not ALL

Yeah greater than is not ALL


Yeah much exceedingly is not ALL

So the facts remain. MANY or any of the above you want to choose is NOT ALL. So how is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

 

[WPM]

Only in your mind. Amazing how some of you fool yourselves. You have to know every time you post and I have time to respond, scripture is going to prove you wrong. Everything you have been taught is fools gold. Five wise, five foolish.



What a load as usual. You claim there is one resurrection. I proved using scripture that you were in error as usual. You really have nothing that I can't disprove with the Word of God. You and yours have to resort to changing the scripture to fool other believers. Sadly, I will have the last laugh, and it will be nothing I take pleasure in. Soon the door will be shut, and the foolish will not be ready. And then you will face the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

What happened to your response about John 5

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So are Christians saved by doing good???????????????????????

Expecting crickets as usual. And this is simple You always demand answers and yet you can never answer.


Daniel 12:2-3 And John 5:25-29 prove you wrong as usual.


Of course Zechariah 14 proves you wrong as usual.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything that you can post about endtimes that can't be proven with scripture to be false?


Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Try to post something that you believe about end times that is not proven incorrect by the Word of God,


Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ok. State your point and then post some scripture to prove it. Simple enough. I love if you could post something that you were correct about. You can't be wrong every single time. You can do it.

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-21, 27:1, and also identifies it with the time Satan is finally destroyed, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Let us 1st establish what we are looking at in this overall passage. We are looking at one final future coming of Christ. We are looking at the resurrection of all. We are looking at the judgment of all - the elect and the unregenerate. The major difference between the two parties being: believers experience their eternal reward, the ungodly experience eternal punishment.

As we have seen in the various judgment passages we have already looked at, Christ is shown here to raise all men at His coming and exercise final and eternal judgment upon all. Isaiah commences this general resurrection discourse here by stating “dead men shall live,” the reason being, because “the earth shall cast out the dead” (speaking about the general resurrection of the dead). Regardless of how carefully The Beginner may try to rewrite this passage, there is no stipulation that we are looking at the righteous alone in the text - quite the opposite. We are looking at the raising of all the dead at Christ's coming. Isaiah testifies 1st of all of his own personal participation in that great final all-consummating event as a believer and as an Old Testament saint. He rejoices in anticipation of that day, as should every single believer that looks for resurrection / judgment day, declaring “Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs.” The reason for the believer’s joy is that they experience glorification as they discard mortality and take on immortality, and they receive God’s eternal reward on this great final day.

The unsaved are different, even though they will be raised at the same time on this day, it is for the purpose of judgment and eternal punishment. This is not a day of joy for them. This is not a day of reward. We learn: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.” When are the wicked punished? When “the LORD cometh out of his place” (of course talking about heaven). This is significantly the same time that that great enemy of the kingdom of God that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked are once and for all destroyed. The Hebrew word used here for slain is harag meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

 

[Douggg]

Pretribbers do not know what they believe.

There is definitely disagreement amongst us pre-mils regarding how end times events will fit with one another. But we pre-mils are in unison that when Jesus returns, it will be followed by a literal thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth.

 

[WPM]

There is definitely disagreement amongst us pre-mils regarding how end times events will fit with one another. But we pre-mils are in unison that when Jesus returns, it will be followed by a literal thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth.

I said Pretribbers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The great tribulation martyrs, who refuse to worship the beast, his image, nor take his mark.

Wrong answer. You refuse to allow scripture to interpret scripture.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Scripture says the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection (Rev 1:5, Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18) and we all spiritually share in it (Col 2:12-13, Romans 6:1-4, Eph 2:4-6). And it says we have been MADE priests of God and of Christ. That makes Revelation 20:6 present tense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is definitely disagreement amongst us pre-mils regarding how end times events will fit with one another. But we pre-mils are in unison that when Jesus returns, it will be followed by a literal thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth.

It's a bit hard to trust pretribs who have no agreement at all amongst themselves how end times events will unfold to have any understanding of Revelation 20, either. Also, premils have no explanation whatsoever for why no NT scripture ever says anything about Jesus reigning on the earth after His return. No OT scripture says that, either, but they think it does. But, why would the NT never even mention that if it was true? It mentions Christ reigning, His second coming, the resurrection of the dead, the day of judgment and so on. But nothing about Him reigning on the earth? Why not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Revelation 8:1, Jesus opened the seventh seal to reveal the seven trumpet plagues. To take place during the great tribulation.

The last three of the trumpet plagues are woes to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 8:13.

The fifth trumpet, first woe, is the flesh tormenting locust which will torment men that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads, Revelation 9:4.

You are contradicting what Jesus and Paul taught about the days before Christ's return with your hyperliteral interpretation of passages like those contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture. Both Jesus (in Matthew 24:35-39) and Paul (in 1 Thess 5:2-9) indicated that people would be doing their normal daily activities before Jesus comes and would be saying "peace and safety" before He comes. In your view people would not be doing all of their normal activities and would not be saying "peace and safety" before Jesus comes because you have a bunch of chaos and destruction going on in the time right before He comes.

 

[Douggg]

I said Pretribbers.

Yes, I know. But I was adding my two cents.

 

[Douggg]

You are contradicting what Jesus and Paul taught about the days before Christ's return with your hyperliteral interpretation of passages like those contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture. Both Jesus (in Matthew 24:35-39) and Paul (in 1 Thess 5:2-9) indicated that people would be doing their normal daily activities before Jesus comes and would be saying "peace and safety" before He comes. In your view people would not be doing all of their normal activities and would not be saying "peace and safety" before Jesus comes because you have a bunch of chaos and destruction going on in the time right before He comes.

The rapture, the beginning of the day of the Lord, Jesus's second coming - are different events.

normal daily activities - condition of the world for when the rapture takes place.

saying peace and safety - condition of the world for when the day of the Lord suddenly begins.

the world in great tribulation - condition of the world right before Jesus's Second Coming.

 

[The Light]

The first six seals on the book are presented in Revelation 6 because the events revealed when they were removed act in order.

The seventh seal is treated separate, and is not opened until Revelation 8, because it is not a continuation of the sixth seal event.


View attachment 48226

Douggg,

You really think that the 7th seal is opened in the 2nd seal.

You need to scrap this chart. It cannot be correct.

The 7 seal comes after the 6th seal and is the one-year wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the text of Daniel 12, Daniel stated that many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5 states
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The verses do not prove that ALL that sleep in the ground will be raised at the same time. First many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. After this ALL of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

How is it that you do not understand these things?

Do you ever dig deeper than the surface to try to determine what scripture is saying? The Hebrew word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 is raḇ and it does NOT mean "many, but not all". It simply refers to a large amount (a multitude, many), which may or may not refer to all of something.

Here is an example of another verse where it is used:

Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (rab) days.

Is this verse talking about many, but not all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land of which there were many?

 

[Douggg]

Douggg,

You really think that the 7th seal is opened in the 2nd seal.

You need to scrap this chart. It cannot be correct.

The 7 seal comes after the 6th seal and is the one-year wrath of God

The 7th seal events take place beginning when the AoD statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. There will not be peace on earth at that time. This chart will take you right through the seven years, the seals, the trumpets, the woes,

It also shows the steps of the little horn becoming the Antichrist, then revealed as the man of sin, then becoming the beast.

 

[The Light]

Yes they do. Your fight is with the Scriptures. You cannot even see that a general resurrection/judgment is not even allowed in your teaching.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Jesus taught a singular time (or hour) that is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

John 5:28-29 when ALL that are in the ground come forth happens after Daniel 12:2 when MANY that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

Daniel 12 occurs at the end of the great tribulation at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. This is when the people of Daniel are delivered.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 occurs at the end of wrath.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So you are incorrect according to the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

Nope already proven wrong. Daniel 12 when many that sleep in ground are raised happens after the great tribulation.
When all that sleep in the ground are raised in John 5 this occurs at the end of wrath.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the one-year day of the Lord.