The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

He doesn't like us exposing his heresy to everyone. Are we supposed to apologize for that? He seems to think so. Not going to happen.

Right. Everything you post I disprove with scripture. Everything I post you try to make things up to disprove what I say.

Such as when you tried lay a smokescreen when we were talking about Daniel 12 and MANY that sleep in the ground will be raised.

WPM posted a bunch of definitions and I proved that none of them meant ALL.

Then you come along and say the word is translated most often as GREAT. I asked you to prove that and you were unable.

Alway a bunch of talk with no scriptural support. Just blind opinions to try to protect a fallen doctrine birthed by unbelieving men.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What ? Revelation 20:4-6 has the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, who did not worship the beast, nor his image, nor took his mark. Those three things are found in other parts of Revelation.

The beast reigns 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 20 is not a parallel as you are claiming. Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19:11-20, Jesus's Second Coming.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here are some questions that come to mind about this verse:

Whose resurrection was or is the first resurrection?

At what point did or does it become true that the second death has no power over someone?

At what point did or will believers start to become "priests of God and of Christ?

At what point did or will Jesus begin to reign?

We can get the answers to all those questions in the following passage from the same book:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Here are some things to note about Revelation 1:5-6 that we can use to understand the meaning and timing of Revelation 20:6:

• It says Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection (also taught in other verses like Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20 and Col 1:18).
• It says that Jesus IS "the prince of the kings of the earth and "glory and dominion" belong to Him now.
• It says that Jesus "washed us from our sins in his own blood" which we know results in salvation from the second death (Rom 6:23).
• It says that believers have been MADE "kings and priests unto God and his Father".

Revelation 1:5-6 clearly shows that Revelation 20:6 is a current reality. Please address this.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal.

Not in the text of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17.

 

[WPM]

Neither does the word "rapture"

That largely demolishes your doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here are some questions that come to mind about this verse:

Whose resurrection was or is the first resurrection?

The great tribulation martyrs, who refuse to worship the beast, his image, nor take his mark.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 1:5-6 clearly shows that Revelation 20:6 is a current reality. Please address this.

The beast has not yet come to power to reign 42 months. Still a future reality.

 

[WPM]

Right. Everything you post I disprove with scripture.

Who are you kidding? You avoid every text, every post and every argument. You seem incapable of exegeting Scripture. All we have is your opinions and theories.

Everything I post you try to make things up to disprove what I say.

Such as when you tried lay a smokescreen when we were talking about Daniel 12 and MANY that sleep in the ground will be raised.

WPM posted a bunch of definitions and I proved that none of them meant ALL.

LOL. More lies. That is the only way your argument survives. It is solidly defeated anyway. You guys threw the white flag up a long time ago. You are now on the run.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Mic frustrated no thank you tear OKhael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The interpretation I presented reflects the meaning and fits the context perfectly. You had no rebuttal to it, apart from, you did not like it because it exposed your doctrine (once again). Every text you present does that. No wonder you are frustrated.

What you miss is: this reading shows a general resurrection involving two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." Pretrib or Premil does not believe that. They oppose that. They are therefore fighting with the text. The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one of many passages that prove Amil.

• All creation is judged at the one final future coming of Christ.
• It is a perfect glorified age, which allows only perfect glorified inhabitants.
• Another proof that there will be no thousand years after the second coming is that time terminates with Christ’s coming. The age to come is eternal.
• It is an age is belongs exclusively to the glorified saints (the meek).
• Many Scriptures speak of the inter-Advent period as “the last days” (plural) and describe the second coming as “the last day” (singular). It is described as “the end.”

 

[WPM]

The beast has not yet come to power to reign 42 months. Still a future reality.

Who is he? Is he a human being? Has he been alive for 2000 years or longer?

 

[Douggg]

Who is he? Is he a human being? Has he been alive for 2000 years or longer?

The beast is an end times person. A human being of the present generation.

the little horn > becomes the prince that shall come > becomes the Antichrist (7 years begin) > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast (rules for the final 42 months of the 7 years)

As the beast, he will be possessed by the spirit of garden of eden serpent beast which currently is in the bottomless pit.

I have gone over the above things before, but I understand that you might not recall or have digested it all. See? I gracefully made allowances for you without calling you any names nor making any degrading remarks.

----------------------------------------

please note that at present I don't know the name of the beast, nor what his mark is, nor the solution to the mystery of the number of his name being 666.

 

[The Light]

Not in the text of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17.

It's in the text of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It's marked by the 6th seal signs of the sun, moon and stars

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Additionally, we can prove the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

Who are you kidding? You avoid every text, every post and every argument. You seem incapable of exegeting Scripture. All we have is your opinions and theories.

No. Whenever I post it just proves the garbage you are feeding people is malarkey. Such as the following that sent you into the bunker.

Not so!

rab

1) much, many, great (adjective)

Yeah much, many, great is not ALL

1a) much

Yeah much is not ALL

1b) many

1c) abounding in

Yeah abounding in is not ALL

1d) more numerous than

Yeah more numerous than is not all

1e) abundant, enough

Yeah abundant, enough is not ALL

1f) great

Yeah great is not ALL

1g) strong

Yeah strong is not ALL

1h) greater than

Yeah greater than is not ALL

1i) much, exceedingly

Yeah much exceedingly is not ALL

So the facts remain. MANY or any of the above you want to choose is NOT ALL. So how is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

 

[Douggg]

It's in the text of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It's marked by the 6th seal signs of the sun, moon and stars

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I agree that Matthew 24:29 is part of the sixth seal event.

But what you are skipping over is Matthew 24:30a.

30a And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30a And then [right after the powers of heaven are shaken] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event.

The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days following the setting up of the abomination of desolation, Daniel 12:11.
____________________________________________________________

Matthew 24:30b and then [45 days later] shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Jesus's Second Coming].

1290 days + 45 days = 1335 days of Daniel 12:12.

So what we have is the sixth event of the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Then for 45 days the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus. At the end of the 45 days, Jesus then descends to earth and carries out judgment on all who halve prepared to make war on him.


The sixth seal event = the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Then 45 days.

Then Jesus descends to earth, His Second Coming.

 

[The Light]

LOL. More lies. That is the only way your argument survives. It is solidly defeated anyway. You guys threw the white flag up a long time ago. You are now on the run.

Only in your mind. Amazing how some of you fool yourselves. You have to know every time you post and I have time to respond, scripture is going to prove you wrong. Everything you have been taught is fools gold. Five wise, five foolish.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Mic frustrated no thank you tear OKhael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The interpretation I presented reflects the meaning and fits the context perfectly. You had no rebuttal to it, apart from, you did not like it because it exposed your doctrine (once again). Every text you present does that. No wonder you are frustrated.

What a load as usual. You claim there is one resurrection. I proved using scripture that you were in error as usual. You really have nothing that I can't disprove with the Word of God. You and yours have to resort to changing the scripture to fool other believers. Sadly, I will have the last laugh, and it will be nothing I take pleasure in. Soon the door will be shut, and the foolish will not be ready. And then you will face the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

What you miss is: this reading shows a general resurrection involving two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt."

What happened to your response about John 5

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So are Christians saved by doing good???????????????????????

Expecting crickets as usual. And this is simple You always demand answers and yet you can never answer.

Pretrib or Premil does not believe that. They oppose that. They are therefore fighting with the text. The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one of many passages that prove Amil.

• All creation is judged at the one final future coming of Christ.

Daniel 12:2-3 And John 5:25-29 prove you wrong as usual.

• It is a perfect glorified age, which allows only perfect glorified inhabitants.

Of course Zechariah 14 proves you wrong as usual.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything that you can post about endtimes that can't be proven with scripture to be false?

• Another proof that there will be no thousand years after the second coming is that time terminates with Christ’s coming. The age to come is eternal.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Try to post something that you believe about end times that is not proven incorrect by the Word of God,

• It is an age is belongs exclusively to the glorified saints (the meek).

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

• Many Scriptures speak of the inter-Advent period as “the last days” (plural) and describe the second coming as “the last day” (singular). It is described as “the end.”

Ok. State your point and then post some scripture to prove it. Simple enough. I love if you could post something that you were correct about. You can't be wrong every single time. You can do it.

 

[The Light]

So what we have is the sixth event of the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Then for 45 days the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus. At the end of the 45 days, Jesus then descends to earth and carries out judgment on all who halve prepared to make war on him.


The sixth seal event = the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Then 45 days.

Then Jesus descends to earth, His Second Coming.

The second coming happens at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God happens after the 7th seal. What do you do with this 5 months or 150 that takes place during the 7th seal wrath of God. This alone proves that you are mistaken.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

[WPM]

No. Whenever I post it just prove the garbage you are feeding people is malarkey. Such as the following that sent you into the bunker.


Yeah much, many, great is not ALL



Yeah much is not ALL



Yeah abounding in is not ALL

Yeah more numerous than is not all

Yeah abundant, enough is not ALL

Yeah great is not ALL

Yeah strong is not ALL

Yeah greater than is not ALL


Yeah much exceedingly is not ALL

So the facts remain. MANY or any of the above you want to choose is NOT ALL. So how is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

It describes the abundance of those in the grave.

Only in your mind. Amazing how some of you fool yourselves. You have to know every time you post and I have time to respond, scripture is going to prove you wrong. Everything you have been taught is fools gold. Five wise, five foolish.



What a load as usual. You claim there is one resurrection. I proved using scripture that you were in error as usual. You really have nothing that I can't disprove with the Word of God. You and yours have to resort to changing the scripture to fool other believers. Sadly, I will have the last laugh, and it will be nothing I take pleasure in. Soon the door will be shut, and the foolish will not be ready. And then you will face the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

What happened to your response about John 5

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So are Christians saved by doing good???????????????????????

Expecting crickets as usual. And this is simple You always demand answers and yet you can never answer.


Daniel 12:2-3 And John 5:25-29 prove you wrong as usual.


Of course Zechariah 14 proves you wrong as usual.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Is there anything that you can post about endtimes that can't be proven with scripture to be false?


Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Try to post something that you believe about end times that is not proven incorrect by the Word of God,


Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ok. State your point and then post some scripture to prove it. Simple enough. I love if you could post something that you were correct about. You can't be wrong every single time. You can do it.

You cannot stay on topic. When your opinion on one text is refuted you quickly move on to another. When that is refuted you move on to another. Those first two texts above correlate with each other and support the fact that there will be a future general resurrection when Jesus comes. This the end. Men are either saved or list. This supports Amil.

 

[Douggg]

The second coming happens at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds.

There are no clouds in the text of the sixth seal event in Revelation 6:12-17, the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. The reaction of the kings of the earth will be to gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Him.

Revelation 14:14 is Jesus sitting on a white cloud while the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Him. Revelation 14:15-16 is Jesus's Second Coming. Do you agree that verses 15-16 is at Jesus's Second Coming?

In the sixth seal event, them on earth will see this, the Sign of the Son of man in heaven.

 

[Douggg]

The wrath of God happens after the 7th seal. What do you do with this 5 months or 150 that takes place during the 7th seal wrath of God. This alone proves that you are mistaken.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

In Revelation 8:1, Jesus opened the seventh seal to reveal the seven trumpet plagues. To take place during the great tribulation.

The last three of the trumpet plagues are woes to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 8:13.

The fifth trumpet, first woe, is the flesh tormenting locust which will torment men that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads, Revelation 9:4.

 

[The Light]

There are no clouds in the text of the sixth seal event in Revelation 6:12-17, the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. The reaction of the kings of the earth will be to gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Him.

Armageddon is more than 150 days after the second coming. In fact, it will be 1 year before Jesus leaves with the armies of heaven after the second coming occurs.

Revelation 14:14 is Jesus sitting on a white cloud while the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Him. Revelation 14:15-16 is Jesus's Second Coming. Do you agree that verses 15-16 is at Jesus's Second Coming?

Yes sir. That is the second coming.

In the sixth seal event, them on earth will see this, the Sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Then they will see the Son of man coming is power and glory.

 

[The Light]

In Revelation 8:1, Jesus opened the seventh seal to reveal the seven trumpet plagues. To take place during the great tribulation.

This not possible. Think Douggg. The signs of the sun, moon and stars occur at the sixth seal. The tribulation is over already. Do the words IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS sound familiar. This occurs at the sixth seal............the great tribulation is over before the sixth seal opens.

The last three of the trumpet plagues are woes to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 8:13.

The fifth trumpet, first woe, is the flesh tormenting locust which will torment men that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads, Revelation 9:4.




View attachment 48224

You chart is incorrect. The tribulation does not occur during the trumpets of Gods wrath. The tribulation is over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. You need to fix your chart so it agrees with scripture.

 

[The Light]

It describes the abundance of those in the grave.

Exactly. And abundance is NOT ALL. So the scripture proves you are in error...........again.

You cannot stay on topic. When your opinion on one text is refuted you quickly move on to another.

Just because you respond, does not mean you have correctly refuted anything I have posted. You are constantly caught misrepresenting what the text says. Please feel free to show any post that has refuted anything that I have said. There is none. But go ahead and try to find something. I await your silence.

When that is refuted you move on to another.

Please show a singe post that you posted that refutes anything I have said. You are living in delusion. I await your silence.

Those first two texts above correlate with each other and support the fact that there will be a future general resurrection when Jesus comes. This the end. Men are either saved or list. This supports Amil.

In the text of Daniel 12, Daniel stated that many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5 states
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The verses do not prove that ALL that sleep in the ground will be raised at the same time. First many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. After this ALL of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

How is it that you do not understand these things?