The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

Can you tell me one particular post when you were clear about what the point is that you are trying to make in this thread? Can you explain why you came as a post-trib, to this thread that clearly was made to refute pretrib, to debate post-trib amils instead of pretribs?

I entered the thread last Tuesday with a simple statement -- here.

WPM maintains that Pretribulationalism is "not logical" because the Second Coming of Christ is a single, climactic event at the end of history. Logically, if the Great Tribulation (GT) takes place in history and history ends with the Coming of Christ, then the GT must take place before the coming of Christ. In other words, Christ can't come before the GT.

I maintain that his argument isn't valid because the Second Coming of Christ doesn't mark the end of history, and the Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same event.

 

[Douggg]

What is the Amil end times scenario ?

Who is the Antichrist ?

Who is the false prophet ?

What is the abomination of desolation ?

 

[Taken]

Exactly. It would nice if you could bring something of compelling biblical weight to the table, but you cannot. You default to what you have been taught. It seems like your teachers have left you holding the baby.

This is NOT a NEW TOPIC.
Multiple people have Already exhaustively covered THIS “RAPTURE” TOPIC…step by step, point by point.
The WHAT, the WHO, the WHEN, the WHERE, the WHY, the HOW….

I have YET to see an “anti-Rapture…anti-pretriber”….present their own exhaustive position ….of WHAT, WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, HOW….regarding THOSE “IN” Christ purpose, reasoning, doing ON the face of the earth DURING the days God is SENDING Tribulations and Wrath down from Heaven.

 

[WPM]

This is NOT a NEW TOPIC.
Multiple people have Already exhaustively covered THIS “RAPTURE” TOPIC…step by step, point by point.
The WHAT, the WHO, the WHEN, the WHERE, the WHY, the HOW….

I have YET to see an “anti-Rapture…anti-pretriber”….present their own exhaustive position ….of WHAT, WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, HOW….regarding THOSE “IN” Christ purpose, reasoning, doing ON the face of the earth DURING the days God is SENDING Tribulations and Wrath down from Heaven.

Until you understand apocalyptic language you will never understand Revelation. That is your main problem. Pretribbers literalize what is symbolic and symbolize what is literal.

You can ask questions at any time about anything we teach.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Tell us your understanding of exactly what the tribulation entails then. We probably all should do that in order to clarify what each of us is actually talking about when we say pre-trib or post-trib. We amils repeatedly indicate that our understanding of it is that it consists of spiritual tribulation in the form of increased persecution, a mass falling away from the faith, significantly increased wickedness and increased deception. We associate it with Satan's little season of Revelation 20.

The Great Tribulation, mentioned in Matthew 24:20, refers to the suffering, affliction, and oppression of the Jewish people and the followers of Jesus. It began when King Herod persecuted Jewish followers of Jesus (Acts 12:1) and will end when the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, which signifies the rapture of the Church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You started good showing us a rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. The only problem is, we all believe that. That is not even the issue. You couldn't get any further than that in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. That is because:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

Your doctrine immediately falls apart at the starting blocks. falls apart.

Because you have nothing there, you started gerrymandering other Scripture in order to somehow present some semblance of biblical merit.

We all agree with Romans 1 that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." So, how does that prove Pretrib? It does not!

You randomly quote Revelation 11 without any exegesis. What does that prove? Where is your rapture here? Where is your seven year tribulation here? Where is your third coming here? Nowhere to be seen! The shows the impotence of your position! You have nothing!

I never once said that you should not voice your personal opinion on your personal relationship with the Lord anywhere. Why would I do that? I was cutting across your insults, slights, and ad hominem. I was telling you to keep that away from this thread. I stand by that.

So, it seems like you have nothing to support your position. You reinforce the Op. This is obviously a man-made doctrine that is cobbled together through manipulating Scripture.

Exactly. This is why they rarely even attempt to exegete scripture. Like you said, he referenced a passage that we all agree refers to the rapture as if that somehow proves pre-trib and then referenced a passage that we again all agree with and then a reference to another passage with no exegesis and so on. Is that supposed to be a convincing argument? And they wonder why we think of the pretrib rapture theory the way we do?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is NOT a NEW TOPIC.
Multiple people have Already exhaustively covered THIS “RAPTURE” TOPIC…step by step, point by point.
The WHAT, the WHO, the WHEN, the WHERE, the WHY, the HOW….

No pretribber has done this. If you say otherwise, you are lying. No pretribber in this thread or anywhere else I've ever seen has ever truly exegeted scripture to show exactly how and why they interpret it the way they do. Any time this is ever attempted by a pretribber it's always an incoherent stream of scriptures being referenced with on clear explanation of how those scriptures supposedly support the pretrib rapture doctrine.

I have YET to see an “anti-Rapture…anti-pretriber”….present their own exhaustive position ….of WHAT, WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, HOW….regarding THOSE “IN” Christ purpose, reasoning, doing ON the face of the earth DURING the days God is SENDING Tribulations and Wrath down from Heaven.

Say what now? You need to learn how to communicate. How can anyone even understand what in the world you're trying to say here? You have no self awareness of how your arguments come across.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why would you be surprised that I don't see something that I consider to be baseless and foolish?

Okay, I am surprised you consider it baseless and foolish since Paul provides a clear transition from one subject to another.

On that day, Paul explains what happens to believers (dead in Christ resurrected and then caught up with those who are alive and remain to Christ in the air) and to unbelievers (sudden destruction from which they shall not escape). Just like what he taught in 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.

Your argument ignores the fact that Paul changes the subject in chapter 5.

So, I am surprised that anyone doesn't see THAT.

I don't see it your way because I take account of Paul's transitional statement in verse 5:1

I have to wonder how many would believe in 2 future comings of Christ, like you and pretribs do, if he would have done it the other way around in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 like he did in 2 Thess 1:7-10 in terms of first talking about what will happen to unbelievers on the day He returns followed by talking about what will happen to believers on that day. And I wonder how many would believe that if there was no chapter break after 1 Thess 4:18. Regardless, there's no excuse for not recognizing that he was continuing the narrative he began in 1 Thess 4:13 about the day Christ returns into 1 Thess 5.

I tend to ignore chapter breaks when I study. So there are other reasons for my position. But we mustn't overlook Paul's indication of a change of subject.

One more thing, the correct interpretation of chapter 5 must also take into account his observation that the Thessalonians have no need for him to write about the Day of the Lord. Why does he say that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I entered the thread last Tuesday with a simple statement -- here.

WPM maintains that Pretribulationalism is "not logical" because the Second Coming of Christ is a single, climactic event at the end of history. Logically, if the Great Tribulation (GT) takes place in history and history ends with the Coming of Christ, then the GT must take place before the coming of Christ. In other words, Christ can't come before the GT.

I maintain that his argument isn't valid because the Second Coming of Christ doesn't mark the end of history, and the Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same event.

How does this explain how you came here to debate post-trib Amils instead of pretribs in a thread that was created to refute pretribs? You said yourself that you're not a pretrib.

 

[Taken]

I entered the thread last Tuesday with a simple statement -- here.

WPM maintains that Pretribulationalism is "not logical"

Pre…mid….post Tribulation…
Belief in God…
Pre-trib Rapture…

None of it is “LOGICAL” !!
Logical is simple the CARNAL MIND choosing BETWEEN THIS prospect and THAT as to which belief with a greater degree SATISFIES the CARNAL MIND regarding which to Believe.

It is NOT “LOGICAL” to the Carnal MIND of man…TO BELIEVE IN A GOD…
Man can not, SEE, HEAR, SMELL, TOUCH, TASTE!!

(Why do men build statues, have trinkets, beads, altars, images, blah, blah….Again, they CAN NOT BELIEVE with their SENSES NOT having something to see, hear, smell, touch, taste)

ON the FLIP SIDE…
There ARE MEN WHO…opened their ears, heard, read, listened…TO THAT WHICH was spoken, written, Approved BY God FOR mankind…
AND SUCH of “THOSE” men…
HAVE Trusted TO BELIEVE…”IN THEIR SPIRIT”… That which THEIR CARNAL MIND could NOT believe.
AND…unto the Lord Himself…DECLARED their Spiritual Belief.

From THAT MOMENT…A FOREVER Yoked, Bonded Relationship between that ONE Man and the Lord Gods Almighty…IS Cemented.

And YES, regarding THAT ONE man…he IS NOT subject to ANY Tribulations, Wraths, Sufferings SENT by God to Earth in Gods Express authorized, approved, 21 Judgements upon the Face of the Earth and it’s inhabitants.

The carnal mind is against God…any man Attempting to “LOGICALLY…MINDFULLY”…
Discuss, Prove, Spiritual teaching, Spiritual events….IS venturing off onto a wayward path of delusion.
Be cautious to not venture into their web.


God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, I am surprised you consider it baseless and foolish since Paul provides a clear transition from one subject to another.

No, he does not and you are doing absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise.

Your argument ignores the fact that Paul changes the subject in chapter 5.

You ignore the fact that you read 1 Thessalonians 5 with extreme doctrinal bias.

I don't see it your way because I take account of Paul's transitional statement in verse 5:1

It's not there. It's only in your imagination.

I tend to ignore chapter breaks when I study. So there are other reasons for my position. But we mustn't overlook Paul's indication of a change of subject.

I don't believe you.

One more thing, the correct interpretation of chapter 5 must also take into account his observation that the Thessalonians have no need for him to write about the Day of the Lord. Why does he say that?

What? He did write about the day of the Lord and said it is coming like a thief in the night at which point sudden destruction will come down from which "they shall not escape". What he was saying in verse 1 just has to do with what Jesus said about His coming which is that no one knows the day or hour, so there's no point in trying to predict exact times or seasons that will indicate when the day or hour of His coming will be.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are clearly avoiding.

1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?

I agree. I am avoiding it just like avoiding a pothole, lousy sushi, or walking around a big city after the bars close. :) Your statement is no different than asking "where in the Bible does it mention a refrigerator?"

In a discussion focused on logic, we should steer clear of questions like the ones you posed because the presupposition is not valid. Just because a specific passage in the Bible does not mention Jesus coming down to the ground at his second coming, it does not mean that the concept cannot be found elsewhere.

 

[WPM]

I agree. I am avoiding it just like avoiding a pothole, lousy sushi, or walking around a big city after the bars close. :) Your statement is no different than asking "where in the Bible does it mention a refrigerator?"

In a discussion focused on logic, we should steer clear of questions like the ones you posed because the presupposition is not valid. Just because a specific passage in the Bible does not mention Jesus coming down to the ground at his second coming, it does not mean that the concept cannot be found elsewhere.

I am asking you to support your own claims. What is unreasonable about that?

All you are proving by your avoidance is that what you believe is not in the Bible.

 

[WPM]

Pre…mid….post Tribulation…
Belief in God…
Pre-trib Rapture…

None of it is “LOGICAL” !!
Logical is simple the CARNAL MIND choosing BETWEEN THIS prospect and THAT as to which belief with a greater degree SATISFIES the CARNAL MIND regarding which to Believe.

It is NOT “LOGICAL” to the Carnal MIND of man…TO BELIEVE IN A GOD…
Man can not, SEE, HEAR, SMELL, TOUCH, TASTE!!

(Why do men build statues, have trinkets, beads, altars, images, blah, blah….Again, they CAN NOT BELIEVE with their SENSES NOT having something to see, hear, smell, touch, taste)

ON the FLIP SIDE…
There ARE MEN WHO…opened their ears, heard, read, listened…TO THAT WHICH was spoken, written, Approved BY God FOR mankind…
AND SUCH of “THOSE” men…
HAVE Trusted TO BELIEVE…”IN THEIR SPIRIT”… That which THEIR CARNAL MIND could NOT believe.
AND…unto the Lord Himself…DECLARED their Spiritual Belief.

From THAT MOMENT…A FOREVER Yoked, Bonded Relationship between that ONE Man and the Lord Gods Almighty…IS Cemented.

And YES, regarding THAT ONE man…he IS NOT subject to ANY Tribulations, Wraths, Sufferings SENT by God to Earth in Gods Express authorized, approved, 21 Judgements upon the Face of the Earth and it’s inhabitants.

The carnal mind is against God…any man Attempting to “LOGICALLY…MINDFULLY”…
Discuss, Prove, Spiritual teaching, Spiritual events….IS venturing off onto a wayward path of delusion.
Be cautious to not venture into their web.


God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Yeah right! Anyone who disagrees with you is "carnal." LOL. Typical!

Grow up!

I will take this as an admission that you've lost the debate. You have nothing to bring to the table of biblical weight. All you have now is insults and slander.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How does this explain how you came here to debate post-trib Amils instead of pretribs in a thread that was created to refute pretribs? You said yourself that you're not a pretrib.

I thought I was clear. I didn't come here to disagree with the post-trib view. I was interested in WPM's rationale and the confusion based on his false assumptions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. I am avoiding it just like avoiding a pothole, lousy sushi, or walking around a big city after the bars close. :) Your statement is no different than asking "where in the Bible does it mention a refrigerator?"

In a discussion focused on logic, we should steer clear of questions like the ones you posed because the presupposition is not valid. Just because a specific passage in the Bible does not mention Jesus coming down to the ground at his second coming, it does not mean that the concept cannot be found elsewhere.

Was Paul not aware of Jesus supposedly coming down to the earth at His second coming? I would say no one was more knowledgeable than Paul about Christ's second coming. Yet, he said nothing anywhere in all his letters about Jesus being on the earth after His second coming. Did he just somehow forget that detail or did he know that isn't going to happen? I would vote for the latter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought I was clear. I didn't come here to disagree with the post-trib view. I was interested in WPM's rationale and the confusion based on his false assumptions.

In a thread made for the purpose of refuting pretrib you have come here to refute Amil instead even though you also disagree with pretrib like we do. Got it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Pre…mid….post Tribulation…
Belief in God…
Pre-trib Rapture…

None of it is “LOGICAL” !!
Logical is simple the CARNAL MIND choosing BETWEEN THIS prospect and THAT as to which belief with a greater degree SATISFIES the CARNAL MIND regarding which to Believe.

I do not hold that a rational mind or a rational argument based on logic is the product of a carnal mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah right! Anyone who disagrees with you is "carnal." LOL. Typical!

Grow up!

I will take this as an admission that you've lost the debate. You have nothing to bring to the table of biblical weight. All you have now is insults and slander.

Very ironic for someone who is extremely carnal to accuse us of that. Unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am asking you to support your own claims. What is unreasonable about that?

All you are proving by your avoidance is that what you believe is not in the Bible.

Getting anyone here to do that is like pulling teeth. They'd rather do almost anything than actually exegete scripture and I can understand why. Any time they attempt to do so the lack of coherency in their doctrine becomes obvious.