The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

1 Thes 4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We-
Them-
Caught Up-
Clouds-
Air-
Lord-
We, Them, Lord, together forever.



1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive …

Bodily dead IN CHRIST rise up First -
Bodily alive IN CHRIST rise up Secondly -



Rom 1
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;



Rev 11:
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.[/B]

Gentiles shall tread holy city ~
Forty two months -

Rev 11:
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and
threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Power given from “I”..”MY” -
Power given to “I, My” two witnesses -
Power given for 1,260 days -

followed by a 3rd coming,

“3rd coming” are your words. Not my job regard or to explain your words.

* Son of Man Came to Earth ONCE, (Humble)
* Son of Man Returns to Earth ONCE, (with Power)




You have ZERO authority to voice your opinion while dictating others should not.

Regarding Spiritual Opinions…I WILL voice my Personal Opinion of MY Personal Relationship with the Lord God Almighty without consideration of “your permission”.

If YOU are unlearned (which you repeatedly reveal) in Scriptural Teaching of Gods Word…OF His revealing, His offering, His Way….FOR an individual to ESCAPE being subject to suffering Gods TRIBULATIONS and WRATH God SHALL send down from Heaven…

you most certainly would be without understanding of:
WHO, WHAT, WHY, WHEN, HOW, regarding Gods “ESCAPE” plan (From Gods TRIBULATIONS and WRATH).


Glory to God,
Taken

You started good showing us a rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. The only problem is, we all believe that. That is not even the issue. You couldn't get any further than that in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. That is because:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

Your doctrine immediately falls apart at the starting blocks. falls apart.

Because you have nothing there, you started gerrymandering other Scripture in order to somehow present some semblance of biblical merit.

We all agree with Romans 1 that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." So, how does that prove Pretrib? It does not!

You randomly quote Revelation 11 without any exegesis. What does that prove? Where is your rapture here? Where is your seven year tribulation here? Where is your third coming here? Nowhere to be seen! The shows the impotence of your position! You have nothing!

I never once said that you should not voice your personal opinion on your personal relationship with the Lord anywhere. Why would I do that? I was cutting across your insults, slights, and ad hominem. I was telling you to keep that away from this thread. I stand by that.

So, it seems like you have nothing to support your position. You reinforce the Op. This is obviously a man-made doctrine that is cobbled together through manipulating Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Based on my own discussion boards experience of over 20 years, there are two groups that can't be reasoned with...
(1) partial preterists (2) Amils

One of the positives that has come out of this thread is the total exposure of Amils lack of ability to make timeline charts because of their rejection of the end times times frames given in the bible as literal.

If the time frames mentioned in scripture have to be literal in order to be included on a timeline then we couldn't include the 70 weeks of Daniel on a timeline since they are not literal weeks (not 490 literal days). So, will you remove any reference to Daniel's 70 weeks from your timeline or will you admit that your comments are ridiculous?

Time periods referenced figuratively most certainly can be included in timelines, so this yet another lie you have told. I'm losing count of how many lies you're telling, Doug.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please show me the scripture which describes "the shocking after effects" of a pretrib (or any time) rapture.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Will await your modifications to God's word

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

THIS is the TITLE of THIS THREAD…—->

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

THAT ^ is NOT simply a disagreement with men who Trust to Believe in a RAPTURE, and its timing….

It IS:
1) A false claim pretrib believers are BASING their spiritual BELIEF in “LOGIC”.
2) A personal vindictive attack that their Belief IS absurd.

The door swings both ways…When you are the first to sling crap, don’t be surprised if some of that crap splashes back upon yourself.

It's not a personal attack against anyone, it's how we really feel about the pretrib doctrine. It's absurd. It's nowhere near being true and we have shown that in this thread. Do you not also feel the same about Amil? It's no secret. Why be so offended?

 

[rebuilder 454]

What are you saying here exactly? Are you talking about things that would indicate exactly when the rapture would occur? If so, that is not what I'm asking about. What you said here does not answer my question.

What I'm asking you is to show me the scripture which describes the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture. Surely, the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture would be described somewhere in scripture since that would be such a significant event, so I'm asking you to tell me where that is described.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Well lookey there!!!

 

[WPM]

THIS is the TITLE of THIS THREAD…—->

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

THAT ^ is NOT simply a disagreement with men who Trust to Believe in a RAPTURE, and its timing….

It IS:
1) A false claim pretrib believers are BASING their spiritual BELIEF in “LOGIC”.
2) A personal vindictive attack that their Belief IS absurd.

The door swings both ways…When you are the first to sling crap, don’t be surprised if some of that crap splashes back upon yourself.

So, that justifies all the venom and hate you Pretribber present? The reality is: you do not like your error being exposed. It always bring a vicious reaction from Pretribbers.

 

[WPM]

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Will await your modifications to God's word

Exactly: the destruction is sudden and no one escapes. This demolishes your doctrine. It reinforces Posttrib Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Will await your modifications to God's word

Now, why do you have to add that last comment? You complain about insults and you throw that in there for no reason. Just leave those kinds of comments out and let's discuss this scripture. Deal?

So, you are saying this describes the after effects of a pretrib rapture, right? Please explain where the passage references a pretrib rapture.

Also, what is your understanding of the the results of the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape"? What do you believe is the scope of that destruction and who exactly do you believe will be destroyed by it?

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are none - so as that the rapture moment cannot be pinpointed by that means.

1) 1 thes 5
2) The innumerable number martyred after the pretrib rapture
3) the 5 foolish virgins left behind
4) the ones left behind after the preflood gathering.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1) 1 thes 5
2) The innumerable number martyred after the pretrib rapture
3) the 5 foolish virgins left behind
4) the ones left behind after the preflood gathering.

Do you expect anyone to actually know what you are intending to say here? If so, how?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Exactly: the destruction is sudden and no one escapes. This demolishes your doctrine. It reinforces Posttrib Amil.

But please show us the SPECIFIC CHANGES as per your doctrine.

1) "...DESTRUCTION AS cometh upon them as A WOMAN TRAVAILS WITH CHILD.

2) vs 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Show all modifications you need in those verses.
I will wait.

 

[WPM]

But please show us the SPECIFIC CHANGES as per your doctrine.

1) "...DESTRUCTION AS cometh upon them as A WOMAN TRAVAILS WITH CHILD.

2) vs 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Show all modifications you need in those verses.
I will wait.

This passage speaks for itself and destroys Pretrib. It does not need altered or explain the way as you do. I have showed you this multiple times and you have avoided it multiple times. You have to!

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The “sudden destruction” here is so unexpected, impactful and widespread that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

• Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
• Where are your survivors?
• How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here.

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

 

[WPM]

1) 1 thes 5
2) The innumerable number martyred after the pretrib rapture
3) the 5 foolish virgins left behind
4) the ones left behind after the preflood gathering.

This is all random convoluted ramblings. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[Taken]

You started good showing us a rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. The only problem is, we all believe that. That is not even the issue. You couldn't get any further than that in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. That is because:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

Immediately your doctor and falls apart. Because you have nothing there, he started gerrymander other scripture in order to somehow percent some semblance of biblical merit.

We all agree with Romans 1 that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." So, how does that prove Pretrib? It does not!

You randomly quote Revelation 11 without any exegesis. What does that prove? Where is your rapture here? Where is your seven year tribulation here? Where is your third coming here? Nowhere to be seen! The shows the impotence of your position! You have nothing!

I never once said that you should not voice your personal opinion on your personal relationship with the Lord anywhere. Why would I do that? I was cutting across your insults, slights, and ad hominem. I was telling you to keep that away from this thread. I stand by that.

So, it seems like you have nothing to support your position. You reinforce the Op. This is obviously a man-made doctrine that is cobble together through manipulating Scripture.

I answered “your” points, with Scripture.

I have no requirement to elaborate beyond that.

Rather than acknowledge I answered your points, your comeback was a snarky accusing comment.

I also mentioned to you….ESCAPE.

Your big boy response should have been your opinion ABOUT ESCAPE.

 

[WPM]

I answered “your” points, with Scripture.

I have no requirement to elaborate beyond that.

Rather than acknowledge I answered your points, your comeback was a snarky accusing comment.

I also mentioned to you….ESCAPE.

Your big boy response should have been your opinion ABOUT ESCAPE.

Not so! You reinforce the Op. You have nothing of evidential weight to bring to the table. Nice try! I will save this attempt for future reference and note your avoidance.

It is time to abandon what you have been taught. They have misled you.

 

[Douggg]

It is time to abandon what you have been taught. They have misled you.

And who is the "they" who taught you ?

 

[Taken]

It's not a personal attack against anyone, it's how we really feel about the pretrib doctrine. It's absurd. It's nowhere near being true and we have shown that in this thread. Do you not also feel the same about Amil? It's no secret. Why be so offended?

Your offensive behavior directed at me is of no effect on me.

Your false claims is a detriment toward those in the process of learning about the Lord God.

The FACT IS…
Scriptural teaching reveals …
…another (since the First Great tribulation FLOOD) GREAT tribulation From Heaven shall occur upon the face of the Earth and all its inhabitants.

The FACT IS…
The Lord Jesus PROVIDED the Knowledge OF…who, when, why, how an Individual bodily MAN, CAN ESCAPE being PRESENT “on the face of the Earth”…
During the DAYS…”OF”
(Forty two months, plus 1,260 days =7 years OF 7 seals, 7 trumps, 7 bowls = 21 judgements).

The FACT IS…
Every individual has the opportunity to hear, read, learn, trust, believe Jesus’ teaching…OR NOT.

The FACT IS…
Every individual on the Face of the Earth, (WITHOUT the SEAL of God ON THEIR FOREHEAD) during that 7 years Tribulation SENT from Heaven…
SHALL be negatively Effected with Great SUFFERING

You imply YOUR belief is CONFLICTING…
“IN” Christ…YET “ON” the face of the Earth during the DAYS…of Gods Tribulations, Judgements Wraths…sent down from heaven for 7 years.

WHY…?
Why would God LEAVE men IN Christ ON the.Face of the Earth to SUFFER…Gods own approved 21 Judgements?

WHY…?
Does Scripture compare and parallel the LAST Days Tribulations and Wrath coming down from Heaven…to the First Ancient Days Tribulation and Wrath sent down from Heaven?

DID it ESCAPE your UNDERSTANDING…the comparison and parallel IS ALSO IN REGARD TO; THE PEOPLE?

Regarding the PEOPLE:

First Great Tribulation…
* Few were raised UP above the face of the Earth.
* Those remaining ON the face of the Earth ALL Bodily Died.

Last Great Tribulation…
* Few SHALL BE raised UP above the face of the Earth.
* Those remaining ON the fac of the Earth…
~ SHALL SUFFER the negative effects upon the Earth.
~ SHALL ALL continue mortal and SUBJECT TO succumb to a MORAL BODILY DEATH.

* WHAT IS YOUR Reasoning AND Scriptural Support FOR men WHO HAVE;
~ been forgiven their sin against God
~ been bodily crucified with Christ Jesus
~ been bodily cleansed
~ been soul saved
~ been spirit quickened
~ been sanctified


To REMAIN ON the Face of the EARTH…during the days of Gods Tribulations and Wraths send down from Heaven?

 

[Taken]

Not so! You reinforce the Op. You have nothing of evidential weight to bring to the table.

It is obvious you and I are not sitting at the SAME Table!

 

[WPM]

It is obvious you and I are not sitting at the SAME Table!

Exactly. It would nice if you could bring something of compelling biblical weight to the table, but you cannot. You default to what you have been taught. It seems like your teachers have left you holding the baby.

 

[WPM]

Your offensive behavior directed at me is of no effect on me.

Your false claims is a detriment toward those in the process of learning about the Lord God.

Hey! No one is going to take any lectures from you or your Pretrib assailants. Look at some of the wicked, venomous and vulgar rhetoric that you are hurling towards Posttribbers on these threads. You seem incapable of talking in Christian manner.

All that egg on his face and his remedy is to smear more on it.

What a hoot.

Let's calm down and try to remedy your facesmear with all that gooey egg.
We can start with retrieving your needed omissions.

You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

You rode that beast/doctrine that carried you into the desert and I slew it. Now you are a foot. Time to get with it. Get that Bible out and enjoy the ride. Be free and agree with Jesus and His Holy Book.

Get thee behind me satan.

Dont twist my words Satan.

that's not your agenda here! Satan!

You should seek someone to lay hands hands on you and see if you can get that evil spirit cast out of you.

That's just like the gay guys and the trans supporters and gbtzers and all of their ilk.

Are you and him gay too? You have the same spirit. You guys sound just them guys. Ok go on crusade against me boi.

Wow, look at that. Jerico started a good thread, and it's like the enemy dispatched a platoon of evil ones who seek to shut it down and derail it.

an evil band of spirits instruct people to shut that thread down!

I think all you evil spirits here to disrupt and distract from the truth have shot yourself in the foot in this thread.

evil spirits say, rapture doctrine is wrong

you have no heart.

Gaslighter.

I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you.

I'm pretty sure his nickname is Christmas as he is slow as Christmas

You are Kukoo.

There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.

you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what?

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

Dont debate like a woman. If you (continue) to not offer a correction to the truth makes it seem like you debate like a woman.

No offense brother, but you talk like a woman.

You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk

You showed your true colors. You & your wife and your son?

I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

Every post of yours is now trashy ghetto juvenile nothing-ness.
As you demonstrate manfully.. ...

When you get push back ,you go to default trigger mode and show us your ghetto talk.

SI has gone total ghetto mode.

It is comical imagining him at a podium and cussing and screaming when someone challenges his error.
" OK ladies and gentlemen, we will go to a commercial, as we sort this out"
...all the time he is screaming in the background... ...

Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!

Pity on you.

Matt 13:[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

It is beyond your comprehension BECAUSE it is “EASIER” to simply maintain your stubbornness and REJECT, rather than to “DISCOVER” the meaning of Jesus’ teaching, and HOW TO, understand the meaning of Jesus’ teaching.It’s not rocket-science.

Well, what was your career? I know it was nothing technical. I know it was nothing in mathematics. I think most likely just manual labor. Small chance of sales but it would be at a shoe store or target, Best Buy of the like. Not likely you would sell anything like air conditioners or such things.

From your responses I can tell you are retired or without a job, and you when you did work it was likely a manual labor position.

Here are those attackers:

@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you! Shame on you Pretribbers!